Rookie here. So my 9N was running fine until yesterday. Good battery, new starter and new solenoid as of last fall. Yesterday I hit the starter button and it sounded funny, though it did start. The next time it didn't turn the starter though it did hum . . sort of. I let up on the starter button and the humming continued. I quickly turned off the key but the humming still continued for several seconds. I also noticed a tiny wisp of smoke coming out of a small hole on the starter. So the question is, was the starter the problem (+/- $150.00), or will a new solenoid do (+/- $10.00)? Any thoughts on how I can tell?
- Thread starter Mertz54
- Start date
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
Good chance you have a weak/discharged battery which in turn has welded the solenoid up and now the battery is even weaker and maybe you smoked the starter
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
I would start with a new solenoid. Be sure to use the correct solenoid. If it is wired as it originally was, it takes an externally grounded solenoid. The automotive solenoids look the same but ground through the base. Using that type will disable the neutral safety feature.
It is possible you also have a charging issue. The battery may be good but discharged. Slow charge the battery until fully charged, then have it load tested.
If the battery is good and fully charged (or replaced if it fails the load test), try it again, see if it will crank normally. If not it may have damaged the starter.
Once it is started, check the charging system. If it's 6v, it should charge at around 7 volts, engine above 1000 RPM. If it's 12v, it should be up around 14v.
It is possible you also have a charging issue. The battery may be good but discharged. Slow charge the battery until fully charged, then have it load tested.
If the battery is good and fully charged (or replaced if it fails the load test), try it again, see if it will crank normally. If not it may have damaged the starter.
Once it is started, check the charging system. If it's 6v, it should charge at around 7 volts, engine above 1000 RPM. If it's 12v, it should be up around 14v.
If that tractor has a solenoid thet is where your trouble is BECAUSE THAT TRACTOR NEVER WAS DESIGNED FOR or used a solenoid. {ut it back to orignal and put that netrual safty start back to working. For never used a solenoid on a 9N or 2N tractor. Not made for it and if you have it converted to 12volts the orignal starter switch will still work.
Northvale PA
Member
Or, the starter brushes are worn down and barely making contact.
wilson ind
Well-known Member
You let the magic smoke out!!!!!!!!1
Tony in SD
Well-known Member
Sorry to say but if you let the smoke out of any electrical device, it probably won?t work correctly anymore. I?d look for bad/low voltage battery, poor connections including where the starter meets the bell housing and too small of battery cables.
Jim.ME
Well-known Member
- Location
- central ME
Item 33 - relay, aka solenoid, current part number as posted by showcrop.
https://partstore.agriculture.newho...&sl=EN&currency=#epc::mr55998ar676904
https://partstore.agriculture.newho...&sl=EN&currency=#epc::mr55998ar676904
Thomasthetankengine
Member
Well I?ll be the wiseguy then. Lol
I will add it is not the first solenoid to stick,and when they do you have to disconnect the battery quick. You may very well need a new starter and solenoid. Be sure to check your battery cables,in my opinion, if the cables and ends are discolored, I would replace them too.(smell burnt)
What you are looking at here is for an 8N and not a 9N or 2N tractor. Big difference but not sure how to explain it as I do not have an 8N, just a 9N and 2N. And they never had an electricaly controled starter switch like the 8N has with the solenoid. If somebody put a solenoid on a 9N they bypassed the safty switch so it can start in any gear.
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
Yes many times once the smoke has been let out it means rebuilding or replacing. Of course it can be tested by way of a good battery and jumper cables
Thomasthetankengine
Member
Rick, regardless of what you may "think", or the FIAT website, or Amazon sellers may erroneously list, 9N's and and 2N's did NOT leave the factory with a "starter solenoid", they had a mechanical starter switch that was blocked from operating unless the transmission was in neutral.
The 8N's that came after DID have a starter solenoid.
But who knows what hack job a P.O. may have done to the 9N that eliminated the neutral start safety feature and the mechanical start switch.
The mechanical starter switch is Key #1, the operating button and interlock linkage comprises the rest of the drawing.
(quoted from post at 19:07:17 04/27/19)
Rick, regardless of what you may "think", or the FIAT website, or Amazon sellers may erroneously list, 9N's and and 2N's did NOT leave the factory with a "starter solenoid", they had a mechanical starter switch that was blocked from operating unless the transmission was in neutral.
The 8N's that came after DID have a starter solenoid.
But who knows what hack job a P.O. may have done to the 9N that eliminated the neutral start safety feature and the mechanical start switch.
The mechanical starter switch is Key #1, the operating button and interlock linkage comprises the rest of the drawing.
OK so what? I made a mistake? Regardless of what you may "THINK" bob I don't really care. :lol: :lol:
Rick
(quoted from post at 22:22:35 04/27/19)(quoted from post at 19:07:17 04/27/19)
Rick, regardless of what you may "think", or the FIAT website, or Amazon sellers may erroneously list, 9N's and and 2N's did NOT leave the factory with a "starter solenoid", they had a mechanical starter switch that was blocked from operating unless the transmission was in neutral.
The 8N's that came after DID have a starter solenoid.
But who knows what hack job a P.O. may have done to the 9N that eliminated the neutral start safety feature and the mechanical start switch.
The mechanical starter switch is Key #1, the operating button and interlock linkage comprises the rest of the drawing.
OK so what? I made a mistake? Regardless of what you may "THINK" bob I don't really care. :lol: :lol:
Rick
Oh, my gosh, Mr. Rick!
There is a LOT of misinformation in this thread, and I attempted to set the record straight, which MAY help someone later on who finds this thread in the archives, researching a problem they are having.
And you want to "shoot the messenger"?
On the other hand, I have goofed many times on here over so many years, and have been APPRECIATIVE of those that have set the record straight.
MUCH better that someone does that than leaving "bad" info unchallenged, and confusing someone seeking help later, IMHO.
YAMMV!
Jim.ME
Well-known Member
- Location
- central ME
So the current on line parts catalog was an aid in going down the wrong path. The cut from it, I posted earlier, is incorrect as to how they were originally equipped. So noted, thank you, and I agree info left for the future should be correct.
After a bit of searching, here is the electrical system drawing from a 1940 parts manual. It does not have the relay shown in the current on line Ford/New Holland catalog. The starter switch supplies the battery voltage to the starter, when pushed.
As to having a solenoid/relay being a "hack" job and bypassing the safety feature it depends how it was done. The original safety starter switch can still be functional as designed for safety and use a solenoid/relay at the starter. It is a matter of using the right solenoid and re-wiring the start circuit correctly through the mechanical switch to energize the solenoid. Like systems using a solenoid, activated by the key switch or a starter button, the battery cable would go to the solenoid and another cable from solenoid to starter. The solenoid would be activated only by the mechanical safety starter switch. Lighter gauge wires could be used for the mechanical safety switch circuit. True, this is not correct to the original equipment (nor needed), but it can be done, and retain the safely feature, if done properly.
After a bit of searching, here is the electrical system drawing from a 1940 parts manual. It does not have the relay shown in the current on line Ford/New Holland catalog. The starter switch supplies the battery voltage to the starter, when pushed.
As to having a solenoid/relay being a "hack" job and bypassing the safety feature it depends how it was done. The original safety starter switch can still be functional as designed for safety and use a solenoid/relay at the starter. It is a matter of using the right solenoid and re-wiring the start circuit correctly through the mechanical switch to energize the solenoid. Like systems using a solenoid, activated by the key switch or a starter button, the battery cable would go to the solenoid and another cable from solenoid to starter. The solenoid would be activated only by the mechanical safety starter switch. Lighter gauge wires could be used for the mechanical safety switch circuit. True, this is not correct to the original equipment (nor needed), but it can be done, and retain the safely feature, if done properly.
But you would still need the orignal starter button to engage the solenoid so why have more parts there than needed to make maintainance and repair harder? Without that orignal started button no way to get the safty start to work and if you did not use the orignal button but a key switch would you ever try to even use the safty before using the key to start. Still best to keep orignal and cheaper in the long run. I know the orignal type switch is hard to find but it can be done, new ones need a slight modification to get to fit.
Jim.ME
Well-known Member
- Location
- central ME
After finding the right parts drawing I don't disagree with you and won't suggest adding a solenoid.
My only point in that part of my post about the solenoid is that one can have a solenoid, and still have the safety start switch work, if done correctly.
My only point in that part of my post about the solenoid is that one can have a solenoid, and still have the safety start switch work, if done correctly.
Jim, this diagram looks like mine. I'm going to try and include some pics to see if I am close to describing these things correctly. Never done it before and the quality of the
pics is not great. The first one is what I am calling the solenoid, and the second is what I am calling the starter switch.
pics is not great. The first one is what I am calling the solenoid, and the second is what I am calling the starter switch.
Jim.ME
Well-known Member
- Location
- central ME
Mertz54,
Did your "solenoid" look like this before you installed it, maybe without the material between the two posts? Just the two posts, One with just the cable going to the starter and the other holding the battery cable and a couple small wires?
If so, you don't have a solenoid it is the mechanical starter switch, others were talking about. The button you push is the operating button for the starter switch, as shown in Bob's photo.
A common solenoid/relay has a coil inside it that is activated by electrical power, making a magnet, and pulling the contacts together. A solenoid would have at least small terminal for a wire to energize the coil inside, either by supplying power to it or grounding it.
Clarence Slydell
Member
Fully agree and very well said.
Some folks don't like to have their mistakes corrected but providing clarity and correct information is vital no matter the topic or who's feelings get hurt.
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