- Thread starter JayinNY
- Start date
It is usually considered a No-Sale. Then what he would pay the auctioneer is up to that auctioneer. Some will charge full commission, some a reduced fee, some no charge at all. The owner having to "pay for it to only receive the money back would never happen to my knowledge.
Mutt and Jeff
Member
In all fairness
that seems unfair.
is there some statement going in for the general public to understand that
that seems unfair.
is there some statement going in for the general public to understand that
Bruce from Can.
Well-known Member
- Location
- Woodville, Ontario, Canada
Sometimes the owner bids on their own stuff, but just as often if there is no other bidder, the Auctioneer will pull a bid out of the air. I was a good friend of a local Auctioneer that had many sales through the 80?s. If he was pulling bids out of the air, it was always understood by the seller that he would do this to run the price up to a reasonable amount, so not to give the man?s equipment away. If he got stuck with the equipment by taking bids from no where, when the gavel dropped, I was the successful bidder, or some other shill like myself in the crowd. We would just show our number, and as far as the crowd new, we were the buyer. Naturally the vendor had just bought back the piece . Over the years, I had a few items knocked down to me, and I never let on that I hadn?t bought the item. At cow sales, a ring man/ cattle dealer used to do the same thing, and I bought truck loads of cattle, but never took delivery, lol. You might think this unfair, but it is all part of a auction. As a true buyer at a sale, I like to watch the crowd when I bid , to see if I am bidding against another buyer or just the Auctioneer.. if you think that you are just bidding against the Auctioneer, stop bidding, and watch the Auctioneer start to try to beg another bid from you. If you still want the item, and say bids were going up by $100.00 , just raise the bid by $25.00, and see if you don?t get the item knocked down to you. If it does, you were the only bidder against the Auctioneer. It?s a game.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
I know for sure one instance of what you say about being a game. Was buying a bull at auction. Apparently I was bidding against a "phantom" bidder because when I stopped bidding the bidding stopped. The auctioneer and I worked out a settlement that suited me and I bought it....not at the price of my last bid however. Rumors abound about phantom bidders, or bidders in the audience that work for the auctioneer. Makes sense. Gotta get the seller decent money to keep clients asking for you.
I have seen and even been part of all the below mentioned things.
One time a local moving out of state sale the auctioneer made an announcement about there being many family or relatives of these people will be here bidding on items and rest assured it was not to run them up but they actually wanted to buy some of the items. They will be paying for them like anyone else. This was really nice clean stuff too, so I can surly believe it.
One time a local moving out of state sale the auctioneer made an announcement about there being many family or relatives of these people will be here bidding on items and rest assured it was not to run them up but they actually wanted to buy some of the items. They will be paying for them like anyone else. This was really nice clean stuff too, so I can surly believe it.
larry@stinescorner
Well-known Member
I have seen that to,,three sisters,,all fighting the day of their deceased fathers auction,Seen the one grandson buy his grandpops pickup and cry for joy when he won the bid. One sister bought the farm,,the other two were mad it didnt bring enough
timcasbolt
Well-known Member
A game? Sounds like fraud to me.
jimg.allentown
Well-known Member
There are a lot of rules about auctions. There are also a lot of laws regulating them. I'm sure that they differ from state to state. I do know that auctioneers are required to have training, pass a test, and be licensed - at least here in Pennsylvania.
In general, shill bidding is illegal. If a seller wants to specify a minimum price for his item, he can put a reserve on it. I would guess that if he bids up his own item and wins the bid, he would legally have to go through the same procedure as any other bidder - subject to commission and buyer's premium.
At ANY auction, you need to go with the idea that you know what you are willing to pay for any particular item. Once you reach your maximum price, you stop bidding. If you keep on bidding, you will most certainly pay too much for it! Also take into account things like buyer's premium. That is still part of the price that will come out of your pocket.
Personally, I devalue my bids to account for expenses that go along with the sale. Because it is an auction, whatever you buy is as-is, where-is. No guarantees. I also mentally deduct any added expenses (like buyer's premium) from my projected maximum bid.
I have seen more than one bidder get into "bidding contests" just for the sake of "winning" the bid and end up paying a lot more than an item is worth.
In general, shill bidding is illegal. If a seller wants to specify a minimum price for his item, he can put a reserve on it. I would guess that if he bids up his own item and wins the bid, he would legally have to go through the same procedure as any other bidder - subject to commission and buyer's premium.
At ANY auction, you need to go with the idea that you know what you are willing to pay for any particular item. Once you reach your maximum price, you stop bidding. If you keep on bidding, you will most certainly pay too much for it! Also take into account things like buyer's premium. That is still part of the price that will come out of your pocket.
Personally, I devalue my bids to account for expenses that go along with the sale. Because it is an auction, whatever you buy is as-is, where-is. No guarantees. I also mentally deduct any added expenses (like buyer's premium) from my projected maximum bid.
I have seen more than one bidder get into "bidding contests" just for the sake of "winning" the bid and end up paying a lot more than an item is worth.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Family members not being able to agree on how to split up things causes a lot of auctions to be held.Was at an auction of a deceased fellow a couple years ago two daughters wanted their dad's old
Farmall H which was in about scrap yard condition they both were on it hard one daughter got it for something like $3300.The other one cried cause she she couldn't get it.Should have been the one that got it doing the crying(LOL)
Farmall H which was in about scrap yard condition they both were on it hard one daughter got it for something like $3300.The other one cried cause she she couldn't get it.Should have been the one that got it doing the crying(LOL)
one auctioneer out here will not take a bid from the owner. He will not do reserve bid unless stated on auction bill. He is VERY strict about not bidding up items. With a reputation of honesty you don't need to beg people to let you sell there stuff. My brother is now his auctioneer.
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
Not fair to whom? It's not fair to the owner to force him to give away his equipment.
When someone bids on an item, obviously that person thinks the item is worth what he is bidding on it. What difference does it make if the other guy is the owner of the equipment, or a ghost?
Nobody is holding a gun to the bidder's head. If it's more than he wants to pay, he needs to STOP BIDDING. It's that simple. This is free enterprise, not a charity.
When someone bids on an item, obviously that person thinks the item is worth what he is bidding on it. What difference does it make if the other guy is the owner of the equipment, or a ghost?
Nobody is holding a gun to the bidder's head. If it's more than he wants to pay, he needs to STOP BIDDING. It's that simple. This is free enterprise, not a charity.
is suspect there is nothing illegal about it (depends on state) as it is an open "public auction" and the owner would be "public" many folks that would see the owner bidding would tend to stop bidding either because they thought/feel something is not right or want to stick him with it. so i would imagine the auctioneers would tend to discourage it.
estate sales are different as technically the estate is selling not the individual beneficiaries. yea they "own" it but they don't so a different animal all together.
around here there are more than 1 shady amish auctioneering company that has shills and/or phantom bidders. have heard that some have gotten and reputation and have gotten stuck with stuff once folks catch on. some have approached the back-up bidder with some story that the person that won the bid "thought it was something else" and didn't want it and offer it to the back up bidder... "no thanks" if they did that to me i'd make a straight beeline to the owner/executor and tell them what happened... might even threaten the auctioneer to report them. but probably won't happen as i deliberately don't attend their auctions.
estate sales are different as technically the estate is selling not the individual beneficiaries. yea they "own" it but they don't so a different animal all together.
around here there are more than 1 shady amish auctioneering company that has shills and/or phantom bidders. have heard that some have gotten and reputation and have gotten stuck with stuff once folks catch on. some have approached the back-up bidder with some story that the person that won the bid "thought it was something else" and didn't want it and offer it to the back up bidder... "no thanks" if they did that to me i'd make a straight beeline to the owner/executor and tell them what happened... might even threaten the auctioneer to report them. but probably won't happen as i deliberately don't attend their auctions.
Consignment sale here that is so big they could not keepp with reserve bids. This past week over 400 consigners of multiple items. They anounce at the beginnin of the sale if owner wants to protect himself he has to bid as any other buyer. Not sure what the consignment fee is in that case but it is part of the opening statements. Noy if you are not there to hear them you might not know what is going and being legal and think there is fraud back of it. So be on time and hear those statements that the law requires, Otherwise the law requires the auctioneere to anounce they have a reserve bid the item bust bring to sell. And they may take absentee bid before the sale but those are supposed to be in writing with the bidders contact information, what the item is and max bid amount. A relative had to go through a 2 year investigation to keep his licence from a complaint that they were letting an owner bid up his items and the owner was 2 states away when the item was sold. Cost him a lot of money and the sale was for a non proffit and all the auctioneers time was donated.
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
Regardless of race, creed, color, or political leaning, it all boils do to the fact that everyone wants SOMETHING FOR NOTHING.
The Famous Grouse
Member
How it works around where I grew up is the owner and the auctioneer would both be at grave risk of getting their @sses kicked.
My dad has thrown up his hands and challenged 2 auctioneers to show him where the other bidder is. Boy, you never seen a red face like those clowns had when he busted them right there on the hay rack in front of everybody and made them do the "start over" call of shame. Several men yelled out don't EVER try that again unless you want your @ss kicked.
Owners being allowed to bid is a total d!ck move on the auctioneers part. It should never be allowed and no reputable auctioneer would ever allow it.
Everybody with two brain cells to rub together knows that the way to deal with this situation is a reserve. If the cheapskate owner doesn't have the seeds to sell it for what it's worth at the auction, then be a man and put a reserve on it and advertise it that way.
If you see this kind of stuff happening, IMO I owe it to the other bidders to call out the auctioneer. Only the threat of getting known as a fraud auctioneer will stop these guys because they'll see sale attendance and prices drop and with it will go the commissions.
Grouse
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
The upfront and honest way to handle things is to announce the item has a reserve and when the bidding stops let the seller say if its reached their reserve.
Dan in North Houston
Member
Local equipment jockey has an auction several times a year to sell his stuff and consignment items. If it is a consignment item, he will state that it has a reserve on it, and if the bidding doesn't reach the consigner's undisclosed reserve amount, he will state that it is a no sale and move on. If it is one of his items and a big ticket item, such as a tractor, he will go until the bidding stops, and then state that he cannot let it go for that amount, and move on. I don't mind that at all.
But if it is a smaller item, he has a shill in the crowd run the bid up. I bid on a plow at the last auction, and it went to someone in the crowd that had already bought several random items where there were not many bidders involved. I had a limit as to how much I would bid, so when I got outbid at that amount, I passed, and he banged the gavel and proclaimed his shill had bought it. The next week, it was back listed on Craigslist, where it has been for several months now.
But if it is a smaller item, he has a shill in the crowd run the bid up. I bid on a plow at the last auction, and it went to someone in the crowd that had already bought several random items where there were not many bidders involved. I had a limit as to how much I would bid, so when I got outbid at that amount, I passed, and he banged the gavel and proclaimed his shill had bought it. The next week, it was back listed on Craigslist, where it has been for several months now.
Naylorbros
Member
HI! A couple of different experiences with auctions. I took at John Deere model B to a consignment sale because I wanted it gone and it did not fit with what I wanted in my collection. I was one of the better looking tractors I had at the time. This auction was one of the rare times that my brother and I took our mother along with us. She was mad that I was selling that tractor and decided to bid on it. She ended up being the high bidder and ended up using my number. We ended up paying a no sale fee to the auction company. The guy that was bidding against her I think was having fun watching my brother and I get more and more mad at her.
The second one is we had an auction company dispose of my mother's, cousin's estate. There were two homes and a couple of buildings on the property and both were full of things he, my great uncle and my great grandmother had kept. The auctioneer at the beginning of each day (a two day auction with two rings going) made an announcement that the family is here at the auction, that they will be helping with the auction in the ring taking bids and helping in other ways. and that they will also be biding on items that they want.
thanks Ken
The second one is we had an auction company dispose of my mother's, cousin's estate. There were two homes and a couple of buildings on the property and both were full of things he, my great uncle and my great grandmother had kept. The auctioneer at the beginning of each day (a two day auction with two rings going) made an announcement that the family is here at the auction, that they will be helping with the auction in the ring taking bids and helping in other ways. and that they will also be biding on items that they want.
thanks Ken
Bruce I think you have given a very fair description of auctions. Folks that do not go to many can not pick out the bidding like you describe, but is just about any where one goes now days. Everything has a price it is just who is setting the price. I probably made close to 60 auctions last year and one just has to know going in what he is up against. I see these folks saying that the auctioneer never jacks a bid, all I can say is if that is the case sure is one rare auctioneer.
David Snipes
Member
Bruce: What you did was tantamount to theft, it was not a fair auction.
I don't see a problem with any of this. The auctioneer may have a "write in" bid from a friend who can't make it to the sale. The problem I see is when the auctioneer comes to the runner up and tries to settle after he is stuck with the item.
And why can't the auctioneer bid on an item for himself? As long as he is a decent person and not shorting the bid calling to favor him.
The risk with selling at an auction is you may loose your butt. You might also score big. But the guaranteed thing is it will be sold that day unless a reserve is placed.
And why can't the auctioneer bid on an item for himself? As long as he is a decent person and not shorting the bid calling to favor him.
The risk with selling at an auction is you may loose your butt. You might also score big. But the guaranteed thing is it will be sold that day unless a reserve is placed.
DoubleO7
Well-known Member
- Location
- Crystal River, FL
Yea, right. Pulled for maybe 6 months.
If indefinitely, they just set up shop in another state.
Just like lawyers and doctors, unless they commit murder there is no real penalty.
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