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Might be time to wise up

Ultradog MN

Ultradog MN

Well-known Member
Location
Twin Cities
I have a Ford 4000 gasser - 3 cylinder model.
I like the tractor but don't use it much. Maybe 5 times a year for a total of 20? hours. The rest of the time it just loafs in the shed.
But every time I want to use it I first have to clean the points. Then lately with the bad gas we get, I usually have to dink with the carb too. Take it off, clean the green crud out of the float bowl, blow out the jets, etc.
I'm kinda tired of doing that.
I went up north this week to bring it home to do do some work on it.
It wouldn't start so I winched it on the trailer and hauled it home.
Got it home and just wanted to run it for 3 minutes to back it off the trailer and get it in the garage.
Do you think it would run?
Heck no.
I messed with it here for two hours.
Cleaned the points, took the carb off, etc, etc.
I finally just rolled it off the trailer and pushed it in the garage.
I dinked with it yesterday and got it running. It ran good.
No revelations on why it wouldn't start before. It just wanted me to show it some affection maybe.
I like a gasser. They're quieter and don't stink so bad like a diesel does.
But you know, I'm tired of having to dink with them all the time.
I have a couple of diesels too.
Those you can park them in the shed in September, come back 6 months later and put a battery in it and it will fire right up and go to work.
They just run.
I have enough spare parts for these 3 cyl Fords that I'm thinking about getting rid of this gas engine and put a diesel in the tractor.
Am kind of a Johney Come Lately to diesels. Never owned one till about 10 years ago.
It was since then that I began to realize that diesels just run.
They always run.
Maybe it's time to wise up here.
Spend my limited tractor time driving instead of dinking.
I suppose you guys who actually farm came to this realization a long time ago.
Wised up as it were.
But I'm just a hobbiest and it's finally sinking in.
It is nearly 4 AM here and I'm just musing so thanks for reading this post.
At least it's tractor related.
 
It sounds like a big project converting it to diesel if that?s what you may be thinking unless I got the message wrong? Woukd you ever time to run it more often to keep everything cleaned out? Even just to take it for a drive up the road or around your property?
 
Maybe add a fuel shut-off valve (quarter turn - $10) and an electronic ignition kit (Pertronix - $120)?

When parking the tractor, shut off the fuel and let it run until the carburetor empties, then turn off the ignition after the engine dies.
 
Does it have a Holley carb? My carb guy says they are a disaster, almost impossible to build right. He suggests an aftermarket Zenith...
 
Yep, just like you. Never owned a diesel until I retired, now the Ford 2n just sits. But you got some good suggestions below.......worth a try.
Jim B
 
I am on the side of electronic ignition, and fuel shutoff/drain at the carb. Another option is to sell it and buy a diesel smaller tractor and use it on both places to keep it operational, and since you have a trailer, no transport issues. Jim
 
If you want to go diesel, buy a diesel and sell the gasser.

If you shut off the fuel when the tractor is parked, the carb shouldn't gum up. Even better, run the carb dry.

I gave up on finding decent ignition parts last year and installed a Pertronix electronic ignition. So far it fires up instantly, every time, in any weather.
 
I put 24 hours on my D17 last year. Who knows how old the points and condenser are. Same E10 that I burn in everything else. Runs great every time. 20 hours a year on a diesel will have some issues as well. Only you can't drain the carb and throw fresh gas in it. I'd switch to a Pertronix ignition and keep burning gas.
AaronSEIA
 
I have some gas tractors I run regularly and they do OK,leave them very long and it'll be something to mess with most likely.The diesels can sit longer and start fine but can accumulate
moisture in the fuel system while sitting.I have a David Brown 780 I rake hay with has been hooked to the NH 256 rake for over 15 years and does nothing else.Cut it off in the Fall take take the battery out,its sits all Winter.When hay time comes put in a battery turns over about 1 time and fires right up like it ran the day before.
 
Used Ford tractors of all sizes and shapes are the #1 seller in my neck of the woods, but guess what, almost no one wants a gasser. They sell for a little over half of what the diesels sell for. The early Red Tigers do well but the three cylinders are just about a sure "no sale to" anyone. I have had a chance to buy a few but didn't because I didn't want one for myself and couldn't make any profit on a sale of one.
 

cvphoto18371.jpg
;;I better knock on wood,,but I Havent used the Ford much at all in two years ,and so far ,,good luck...Last season the battery blew up,,it must have froze over the winter,,but with the new battery the old girl starts right up,,,,so far
 
Every 2 years in February conditions are such my 2007 GMC will get condensation under the distributor and short out the spark. This has happened ever since I bought the truck new. Same thing happened to my 1995 GMC.

I'm lucky, no mousture problems with my 1950 Farmall or Jubilee .

Depending on where you live condensation is public enemy number 1.
 
This is just my experience, so take it with a pound or two of salt.

I have a Massey diesel sitting in the shop in a long 'back burner' process of fixing up. Hasn't run in years, but no doubt it would fire right up, even at 40F. It would work circles around anything else here, but in the process of scaling back it just isn't needed so much, and I'm just not fond of the smell of diesel.

I have 2 Farmall gassers, both converted to 12v, one with the Pertronix ignition, and both start and run no matter how long they've set. One was 6v, and even with that, it started on the first or second roll except on the coldest days.

I've run several JD gassers, some that have sat for extended periods, and all of them started quite well.

I have a 651 Ford, borrowed, still 6v, and it seems no matter what I do tune-up wise, or even if it is used every other day, it just will not start easily, even on summer days. This is the primary reason the owner replaced it with a Kubota diesel and left the Ford for yard art. Once warmed up, it will start and run reasonably well, but some days, it just doesn't seem like it's worth the trouble. It could be a carb issue, or even a 'Ford' issue. ;-) I don't intend to keep it long enough to figure it out.
 
This summer will be my seventeenth year of going on antique tractor drives, first one was in 2003. While I've had two gas tractors on drives, I will now only take a diesel, or I won't go. In all those years I've only seen two diesels with trouble, can't say that with gas as there's always two or three that get towed in for repair of either ignition or fuel problems. Last summer I helped four gas tractors get running with new hot plugs I keep on hand in the toolbox. While any man made engine can have trouble, GAS is the most consistent of acting up! The only spark plug engine I would trust after diesel is LP gas, the old Cockshutt 30 I have on LP always starts with a good battery..
 
Smart man!!!!! I quit "dinking" with gassers probably 30 years ago and haven't looked back for the reasons you mention. I have a 2000 4 cyl, 3000, and 3910, all diesels....all ready to go when you ask it of them!
 
You're right about that John. Once the Holley carbs get worn inside (accelerator pump), they are hard to tune right. You either have good idle and blubbering throttle, or good throttle and no idle. Doesn't matter if it's a Holley on a Ford, Oliver, or Allis, they're all a pain. Zenith or Marvel is always the replacement here.

Ross
 
I agree with ss55, you need to shut the gas off when you are done using it, I thought that was a common practice with all old tractor guys, even back in the days before ethanol! I don't know what could be causing you points problem, but we have an old Farmall C that we use a little every year, and I haven't had the distributor cap off in 10 years. I would spray some WD-40 in the points area and them put the cap on and use it. As far as switching to a diesel, if you are careless with a diesel and have to get an injector pump repaired you will wish it was a gas tractor!
 
I have a 960 for gasser. repaired a small leak in the gas tank during the winter. last ran in November. put the tank back on where it sat under the canopy, poured fresh gas in it , installed the battery and she fired right up. I do though when I am not going to use my tractors for awhile shut off the fuel then shut it off when it starts sputtering. I have had good luck with that method. one thing I do know every ford has its own starting way to start it. the old ford cars back in the 50s were the same way. I would suspect your problem is with your gas system. maybe dirt in the system, carb problem, choke not set right. if everything is proper then it should start fine. good luck
 
If any of you haven't worked on a 3 cyl Ford tractor engine, let me just put out there that of any I've worked on, they are the biggest pain to work on the carb or ignition. Everything is wrapped around everything else with no room to maneuver without removing a bunch of stuff that doesn't even really help much.

I for one aren't big on draining the carbs dry anymore. Seems like the newer gas will absolutely dry out every gasket, seal, o ring inside that carb now after it's drained out. Not such a big deal on a tractor, but it's a pain on my motorcycles that have 2, or 4 carbs that are a pain to remove when they have problems. And with all the rubber parts in them, they'll shrink right up after the gas is drained out, at least in my experience. For that reason, on all of my bikes being put up for winter, I drain the tanks, drain the carb bowls, put the tank valve on reserve, and pour about half a quart of diesel in the gas tank. Just enough that it will fill the carb bowls. One thing about motorcycle carbs, they are designed to be drained easy. In the spring, I open all the carb drains, let the diesel out into a pan, fill it with gas until it runs out the drains, then close em up. Good to go, never had a problem doing it. Just always got tired of having to fish the carbs out every year because they o-rings dried up without liquid against them, or the carb gummed up from leaving the gas in it. The carb bowl o-rings I had to buy for a bike I just bought that had been setting were a steal at $15 on ebay for for the 2 o-rings, normally $22 each. I'm sure seafoam would probably work, never had any luck with stabil, but I just use the diesel, it works for me.
 
(quoted from post at 08:07:18 03/31/19) This summer will be my seventeenth year of going on antique tractor drives, first one was in 2003. While I've had two gas tractors on drives, I will now only take a diesel, or I won't go. In all those years I've only seen two diesels with trouble, can't say that with gas as there's always two or three that get towed in for repair of either ignition or fuel problems. Last summer I helped four gas tractors get running with new hot plugs I keep on hand in the toolbox. While any man made engine can have trouble, GAS is the most consistent of acting up! The only spark plug engine I would trust after diesel is LP gas, the old Cockshutt 30 I have on LP always starts with a good battery..
Click to expand...
DT, I think a lot of those problems come of tractors that aren't used often enough, and/or owners that don't know enough about tuning old carb and ignition systems, or how to make an infrequently used gas engine ready for long term sitting. 6 volt stuff is iffy to begin with. Mags are an issue of their own. Points can oxidize with lack of use, moisture can condense in distributors. Modern gas is less reliable. It all adds up to making sure a tractor runs great even before loading it on a trailer to take to a drive, and not expecting some gasoline fueled antique hauled out of a shed once a year to run like it was last used for the belt pulley combine yesterday.

My Farmalls have each covered many hundreds of farm use miles with nary a glitch, and go as far as needed, whenever needed. The Ford takes some 'dinking'.
 
Something is verry wrong for to have those problems I had the 4000 3 cylinder for probably 30 years and never had any problems like you are having. First one an 65 model 4100 that acording to the numbers was a diesel converted to gas (they use the same block and crankshaft) second a 68 4100 and finally a 68 5100 gas. The only one that ever gave me any problems was the 5000 and it was the carb and aftermarket fuell pump that had been put on it. Then it was the Ford tractor that had no idea how to work on the carb. I finally took the carb off and took it to a person that had been a dealer at the time they were sold. He found the acelerator pump was froze into the carb so bad he could not get it out. He took the carb to a big shop that he knew in Columbus, Ohio and I think they actually had to cut it out. But after somebody that actually knew what to do and how to work on a carb it ran good for the rest of the time I was farming and owned it. It was one of the years that had the smaller engine. I think your problem is that acelerator pump in the carb and no body is getting it repaired correctlt. But I never had a bit of point problems with them and on the 74 Chevy truck had it as daily driver before I ever found out it had points and not electronic. Never had points problems in anything else. And to this day I would not own a diesel. Only diesel I ever seriously considered was a Fordson Major and they only came with a bad diesel, a good gas and they would have been way better.
 
I run ethanol free gas with 2 cycle oil . I bought 3 - 1 gallon jugs from Wally world online for $12 each and free shipping ( free over $35 , hence 3 gallons )

At 40:1 that's .30 cents a gallon extra , plus the premium is .60 cents ? more . So it's a buck a gallon extra . The price is nothing on my lawn mowers , etc , and would not be much for 20hrs a year .

Some people like ATF , but the 2 cycle oil burns cleaner so there is less smoke or carbon build up .

Yep on the Pertronix .

I forget sometimes but I try to start everything once a month and let them warm up . If they have pneumatic tires I like to at least drive it forward a few feet and back it up .
 
Put a set of good points in it, I like Blue Streak, and you can forget them for ten years. My 3-cyl 2000 sets for months in a dirt-floor shed with a leaky roof and always starts. 10% ethanol and it's the only one where I don't shut the gas off. Same with my COOPs and Deere but I do shut the gas off on the Deere. All mine are gassers and I just don't see the great advantage of diesels for part time or light use. I hate the smell of the fuel and exhaust, too. Fuel savings? Using a tractor hard every day it will add up but it isn't like 5 GPH on gas equals 1 GPH with a diesel.
 
Bingo.

I always shut off the fuel and allow the engine to run to burn the gasoline in the carburetor. When the engine starts to die, I pull the choke fully to suck as much gasoline as possible from interior passages, etc.

I also replace the gasoline in unused tractors every 6 months or so. Siphon out as much as possible, add a couple of ounces of Stabil and about 2 1/5 gallons of fresh gasoline, start and run for a few minutes and then shut down as above. I run the "old" gasoline through the car when the tank is nearly full.

My 6V Ford gassers just about always start in just about all conditions.

Did I mention to buy the best quality contact points as possible (yes, I know that this is becoming more difficult) and NEVER use a point file.

Dean
 
And next spring you will be on here complaining about this black junk (algae) in your diesel tank.

Diesel engines are nice but they are not the cure all.
And when they break you need to take out a loan to get the injector pump rebuilt.

Just last week I had a problem with my Ford diesel.
Line to pump developed a leak.
It caused it to suck air.
While replacing the line was easy it took hours and a battery charge to get the air out the system so it would run.
 

I have became fond of Diesels I sort of live in my shop I eat and sleep in the house other than that I am in the shop... No way I can survive in the shop with a Diesel in it I worked on a Ford 1700 in February I made a promise to myself NO DIESELS will come into my shop over the winter ever again.. I even piped the exhaust out side it took days to get the smell out of the shop after I ran it even if I had the doors up...

I plowed yesterday put it off till the last few hours of the day. I don't use my 3000 gas much it has always started and ran well till yesterday it started good idled good under load it wanted to sputter but cleared up.... With a small time frame I sure as ell did not want to work on it.

Its my fraught it needs worked out more than a couple hours a year. It took me awhile to get a grip on the Holley after I understood them I have repaired everyone that has came thru the door :)... Did I ever tell Y'all how good those Holleys are... If you cannot repair them its YOU take the time to understand how they work life will be good...

I fired up my Cub Cadet mower Friday to mow the mower would not engage the deck after checking it something was locked up I removed the deck the belts had rusted to the drive pulleys on the deck... Its been that wet around here :(... My semi storage trailer even sweated bad over the winter the first time I have ever had that issue it was so bad I had to get my good tractor parts out of it...

MY vote on your tractor issue put a diesel in it we will enjoy your adventure and the knowledge you pass on... Me I am gonna stick it out with the gasser the world is gonna end in 12 years and with the new green deal its not gonna make any difference if it starts anyways...
 
Verify that the choke cable is adjusted such that it fully closes the choke.

Of course, you will vrify that the ignition is spot on first.

Avoid using the point file.

Finally, don't let me or anyone else talk you out of a good diesel (but you will need to learn a new set of ground rules to avoid issues).

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 04:57:37 03/31/19) I have a Ford 4000 gasser - 3 cylinder model.
I like the tractor but don't use it much. Maybe 5 times a year for a total of 20? hours. The rest of the time it just loafs in the shed.
But every time I want to use it I first have to clean the points. Then lately with the bad gas we get, I usually have to dink with the carb too. Take it off, clean the green crud out of the float bowl, blow out the jets, etc.
I'm kinda tired of doing that.
I went up north this week to bring it home to do do some work on it.
It wouldn't start so I winched it on the trailer and hauled it home.
Got it home and just wanted to run it for 3 minutes to back it off the trailer and get it in the garage.
Do you think it would run?
Heck no.
I messed with it here for two hours.
Cleaned the points, took the carb off, etc, etc.
I finally just rolled it off the trailer and pushed it in the garage.
I dinked with it yesterday and got it running. It ran good.
No revelations on why it wouldn't start before. It just wanted me to show it some affection maybe.
I like a gasser. They're quieter and don't stink so bad like a diesel does.
But you know, I'm tired of having to dink with them all the time.
I have a couple of diesels too.
Those you can park them in the shed in September, come back 6 months later and put a battery in it and it will fire right up and go to work.
They just run.
I have enough spare parts for these 3 cyl Fords that I'm thinking about getting rid of this gas engine and put a diesel in the tractor.
Am kind of a Johney Come Lately to diesels. Never owned one till about 10 years ago.
It was since then that I began to realize that diesels just run.
They always run.
Maybe it's time to wise up here.
Spend my limited tractor time driving instead of dinking.
I suppose you guys who actually farm came to this realization a long time ago.
Wised up as it were.
But I'm just a hobbiest and it's finally sinking in.
It is nearly 4 AM here and I'm just musing so thanks for reading this post.
At least it's tractor related.
Click to expand...
Ultradog I get it, I hate dinkin with stuff when I rather just use it. This maybe sacrilegious on a old tractor forum but the old irons aren't always the priority in daily life.
 
Bingo, Hobo.

The Holley carburetor used on old Ford tractors is a good carburetor but one cannot "rebuild" it like one does the extraordinarily simple MS.

Anyone that can do a good job rebuilding a 60s-70s vintage automotive carburetor should be able to work on the Holley.

If right, the Holley is both economical and reliable.

Dean
 
Very good advise, Mike, but GOOD points have become very difficult to find.

I have a couple of sets of 10+ year old points on the shelf and am reluctant to use them.

When did you last buy Standard Ignition Blue Streak points? It's been years since I've seen them.

Dean
 
As some others have said, it shouldn?t be that bad. I have several gas tractors that I use very little, some times years between starts. They always start if they have gas and a good battery. On the other hand that vintage of diesel will have a difficult time starting in the winter time in Minnesota.
 
You are having the same problems that I have with my Super C. Didn't use it much but everytime I did it would be a big deal to get it going. I could never count on it even though it was running great when I parked it the day before. Finally I replaced it with a old kubota I brought cheap and it always runs and is ready to go. Now I have to figure out what to do with this C that I got 3500 bucks in it with 3pt and new tires and such that is probably only worth 1500 bucks, on a good day, and taking up space in the barn.

I know this is a old tractor form but I think I'm done with older tractors. I'm much happier with my newer diesel tractors that are dependable and usually ready to go.
 
Anther thing too. As I have gotten older I want/need more features on the equipment I use. I hardly ever drive anything that does not have power steering anymore. I want to be able to get on and off it easy. I want it to start and function like it should without me having to work on it first.

So while I have a shed full of two banger and other old tractors, the one that gets used the most often is my JD 5210. I gave $8500 at a bank auction. I have just change the filters and oil in the 15 years I have owned it. I will start faster/easier than any other tractor I own. The reason it gets sued so much is you just have one easy step to get up onto a flat floor operator station. You can reach the PTO lever from the ground. So on load out augers you can start it and operate the PTO form the ground without straining. It is smaller and very nimble. My sons swipe it to put the majority of the equipment in the sheds with it.

As for the diesel and gas debate. I think that the gas must be different blends in different areas of the country. Many guys on here talking about how they do not have the issues we do around this area makes me think this. Any gas more than a few months old around here will hardly burn let along run correctly in an older engine. I even have to watch blending it in my pickup. I put about ten gallons in at one time once and the truck would barely run for a week after. ( I put the old gas in my pickup to get rid of the old gas. Blending it about 10-20% with the new gas that is in it.) Also some brands/models are worse than others. The older Waterloo designed gas motors just have issues on the reformulated gas. 3020-4020 being the worse offenders. My brother has a IH 560 gas that runs fine on the gas. He never has the stumble issues that I commonly have on the JD gassers.

Reasonable diesel fumes do not bother me. So running one for a few minutes in the shop does not usually bother me. Outside it never is an issue. I think in general the diesels are more dependable. The market must think so too. Gas powered tractors stopped being built over 40 years ago. A few MF could still be bought with gas motors into the 1980s but not many brands/models.
 
Well I can not really argue your logic as diesel is the way to go for sure for anyone who does real work and operates many tractor hours as it will always pay off in the end.

That said, I am only a hobbyist who purposely makes the hobby pay for itself instead of using money from my real job. Needless to say I operate on a shoe string budget accordingly as my hay hobby does not generate much gross income but does generate some. No issues at all keeping my gassers running as I can easily maintain them for cheap with my limited funds. One injector pump issue would blow my hobby budget.

I have 8 tractors 7 of which are gas and 1 diesel. I am actually thinking about selling my Kubota diesel. I will admit it has been flawless in the 20 years I have owned it and it was over 20 years old when I got it so over 40 years old now.
 
I made the switch to Kubota for all of my users (excepting the 52 Sherman combo equipped 8N with carryall that functions as my quad) a few years ago.

Even though I like the vintage Ford gassers, know them inside and out, and have parts stores, there is no going back.

Dean
 
Forgot to say...all my gassers are reasonably easy to work on whether it be carburetor or ignition related.

I know you love those little blue Fords of the 1965 to 1975 era. I will say I worked on my MIL 1968 Ford 2000 gasser a few times. Was not real fun to get to anything on that thing in the way of the carb or ignition even when it was bare tractor. Install the old school Kelley loader on it and it was even worse.
 
Over the years selling KUBOTAS I do not know of the times customers have came in and repeated Deans remarks. Most times their remark was "Why in earth did you let me wait so long to do this?" Like JD Seller say gas tractors are just a thing of the past. The market is diesel, power steering, live pto, & and four wheel drive for most folks.
 
The market is diesel but the future market (starting with large AG) is diesel/electric.

Dean
 
Thanks, Mike.

Standard Ignition Blue Streak was once the gold standard. Hopefully still is.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 07:55:15 03/31/19) Something is verry wrong for to have those problems I had the 4000 3 cylinder for probably 30 years and never had any problems like you are having. First one an 65 model 4100 that acording to the numbers was a diesel converted to gas (they use the same block and crankshaft) second a 68 4100 and finally a 68 5100 gas. The only one that ever gave me any problems was the 5000 and it was the carb and aftermarket fuell pump that had been put on it. It was one of the years that had the smaller engine.
Click to expand...

Although the blocks are the same the cranks where different on the mid 68 and earlier 4000 engines. Gas engines were 192 ci with a 4.2" stroke, diesels were 201 ci with a 4.4" stroke.
After mid 68 gas engines were ungraded to 201 ci.
Early 5000 gas and diesels were 233 ci, they where upgraded in mid 68 to 256 ci.

I grew up on a 850 gas 5 spd and loved that tractor, always started and ran good with plenty of power for it's size.
But the type of farming we did then plowing, working the ground for crops, haying, tending to and feeding cattle during winter months. That tractor was started and used everyday but Sunday pretty much year round.

Today I only have diesel Ford tractors, yes rebuilding a inj pump is costly but if one drains and changes fuel filters regularly along with making sure fuel cans or tanks are drained of water you'll rarely have issues with the injection pump.
Some of the tractors on this farm have never had the inj pumps worked on, others have for various reasons, but just like carburetors water is the main enemy of any fuel system, unfiltered trash is second.

To me diesel fumes or gas odors from a fuel loaded gasser will both have me opening the shop doors pretty fast.
 
I have a 1970 Ford TLB.....engine would sputter and spit, then die. Clean the carb and after a while, it would run again. Really didnt find anything.

Few years ago I met M Nut, bought an AC model RC from him. He mentioned that he had the same backhoe, same running issue. He replaced the Holley carb with a Zenith....problem solved. I bought the Zenith on this site- same success that he had. Runs fine now, each time I need it.
 
I'm glad I posted this.
A couple thoughts:
It has a Zenith on it.
That's the first thing I did to it when I bought it not running 4 years ago.
I am NOT a fan of the old Holleys.
As for the cost of a new carburator vs an injector pump.
A New Zenith costs a Lot. Like about $450. That is well on the way to paying for a new CAV clone or pump rebuild for a diesel.
As for some of the other remedies that were suggested, I really do appreciate them all though some of them did seem a lot like dinking around :)
Many thanks to all for the replies.
 

With a donor tractor it's a pretty simple swap.

I drilled a hole in the gas tanks neck and soldered in a piece of tubing for the return line.
Using the gasser dash shroud bracket is a pain, I found a diesel bracket later and added that during the trans conversion.
Gas radiator steel doesn't have the bracket added for the diesels oil bath air cleaner, you have to swap shells or cut the bracket out of a junk shell and weld to the gas shell.
Cut a hole in the gas shell for the intake pipe to fit thru.
Gas battery box sets to far forward and covers the diesel intake manifold inlet.
You can use the gas wiring harness with a few mods but won't have the thermostart feature.
 
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