Super C will not start

JohnV2000

Member
I was away on vacation last week, and my tractor has not ran for a couple weeks. When I last used it, it started up right away and ran very nice. This time, I went to start it up and the starting motor was working, but the engine would not start. I had it choked to start, and nothing. I followed the same starting procedure I always do. The online thing I noticed was when I put the throttle higher up and tried to start it, it sounded like it started for a split second and then immediately stopped. What should I try?

Thanks,

John
 
I had the same thing happen. Mine started up cold about three times and died each time. Then it wouldn't fire. I took the wire off the outside of the distributor, pulled the switch on and it sparked to the terminal. Popped the distributor cap and rotor off and the points were closed. Opened the points and it is still sparked. Needs a condenser. I put a new coil on it last year along with points and condenser. I also put new wires, cap and rotor all off Ebay. Probly poor choice!
 
Make sure the battery is fully charged. Your starter will lower the voltage enough to cause a weak spark. Give it a try and
see if it helps.

Beagle
 
It was a little dark when I checked the gas level but I think there was still a lot of gas, almost full. I did not change anything with regards to gas being on or off, so I doubt that is it, but I can double check tomorrow.

The battery being low is a possibility, the only thing I noticed is that I flipped the switch on before I started the tractor, there was a slight humming noise coming from the battery or something electrical. Could it be as simple as a loose wire, that is still slowing the starting motor to work but maybe not at enough voltage or whatever?
 
Compression Spark and fuel. If all three and was running, it will start. I suspect compression is OK, I suspect
either spark, or fuel. Look in the tank to see. (use a clean stick). if fuel, maybe electric/spark. Pull the
coil wire and using a dry wooden clothspin, hold it 1/4 inch away from the engine block. Have a helper crank the
engine (neutral, and brakes set) if a 1/4 inch spark, it has spark. Now back to fuel. There is a drain under the
carburetor bowl (bottom) open that plug (not the load screw) and hold a can under the carb. one pint a minut is
minimum flow) there are screens in the sediment bowl, and at the carb inlet fitting.
Always Always Always shut the fuel off at the tank when done driving the tractor. Not only does it prevent
flooding, and fuel loss, it also slows down a thief to about 50 feet. Tell us what you find. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 21:25:24 03/29/19) Compression Spark and fuel. If all three and was running, it will start. I suspect compression is OK, I suspect
either spark, or fuel. Look in the tank to see. (use a clean stick). if fuel, maybe electric/spark. Pull the
coil wire and using a dry wooden clothspin, hold it 1/4 inch away from the engine block. Have a helper crank the
engine (neutral, and brakes set) if a 1/4 inch spark, it has spark. Now back to fuel. There is a drain under the
carburetor bowl (bottom) open that plug (not the load screw) and hold a can under the carb. one pint a minut is
minimum flow) there are screens in the sediment bowl, and at the carb inlet fitting.
Always Always Always shut the fuel off at the tank when done driving the tractor. Not only does it prevent
flooding, and fuel loss, it also slows down a thief to about 50 feet. Tell us what you find. Jim

Thanks Jim! Is it normal for there to be a slight humming sound from the battery or somewhere in the electrical system when the switch is turned on? I cannot remember if that noise was around before it started last, because it is a very quiet hum.
 
What you are experiencing is a learning opportunity! LOL

The three things necessary to run, compression, spark, fuel.

Compression:
Since it was running a couple weeks ago, chances are it's not compression. But a trained ear can instantly tell by listening to the starter crank it through. You can hear the effort of the starter as each cylinder comes up on compression.

If one cylinder spins by without straining the starter, then you can assume for some reason that cylinder is down on compression.

If the engine spins free, like it would with the spark plugs removed, then it has lost compression on all cylinders, as in cam timing problems.

Spark:
One of the most common problems. Pull the coil wire out of the distributor, lay it about 1/2 inch from something metal, spin the engine through. It should give a blue hot spark to ground.

If good, put the wire back and pull each plug wire at the plug end. You can make a spark tester with an old plug. Break the electrode off the end, put the plug wire on the plug, ground the base. It should jump a spark from the center to the base. If yes, you can assume it has sufficient spark to start.

If no, open the distributor cap.

If there was spark from the coil, but not at the plugs, look for signs of moisture under the cap (very likely if it is stored outside or was recently washed). Just dry it out with compressed air, or dry it bast you can with a dry towel, spray it out with WD40.

Look for signs of carbon tracking under the cap, it will look like a jagged black crack. It can be under the cap, sometimes on the rotor. If found, they will need to be replaced.

If no spark from the coil, check the point gap. Also check that the points are making contact. With the ignition on, watch the points, you should see a small spark each time they open. Points are a very common cause of no spark. The new points are all aftermarket, some are very poor quality. Same for condensers, common to be bad out of the box new.

Sometimes pints can simply be cleaned with a point file. They tend to corrode when parked.

Another common problem is wear in the distributor shaft bushings. There should be very little side to side movement of the point cam. If any movement the points will not stay set.

Fuel:
Fuel problems are usually caused from a contaminated tank, or sitting for extended periods.

Fuel contamination is either water, or rust/trash in the tank, or occasionally something other than gasoline ends up in the tank.

Today's gas has ethanol, no practical way around it. The good, it is a great water absorbent. A little water will be absorbed and burn right on through the engine. The bad, it doesn't play well with open, vented fuel systems. It evaporates and leaves the ethanol goo behind. It tends to stick floats, and clog jets. It also degrades neoprene fuel lines, pump diaphragms, and carb parts.

The best defense is to turn the fuel off and run the carb dry, or drain it when the tractor will be stored for more than a few months. The tank can be treated with Stabil or other fuel storage treatments.

Back to the no start...
If an engine has spark, and compression, a logical assumption is it either has too much fuel, or not enough fuel in the cylinders to ignite.

Too much fuel, or "flooded" means the mixture is too rich to ignite.

This can be a temporary condition caused by too much choke, or it can be caused from a malfunctioning carburetor. Be sure the choke is properly adjusted, the choke should close fully, and open fully when operated.

A flooding carb will drip gas anytime the fuel valve is on, or it may still run, but blubber black smoke, consume excess fuel. In extreme cases, it can drain fuel from the tank and fill the engine. That's why you should always turn the fuel off at the tank when done for the day. If you left the fuel valve open, and suspect this has happened, check the oil level. If the level is high, and smells like gas, it will need to be changed before running.

Flooding is usually caused by trash under the needle valve from a contaminated tank. It can also be caused by a damaged needle valve or a sunk float.

Not enough fuel, the obvious, not enough in the tank. Most tanks won't feed the last inch or so of fuel. It helps to keep the dirty fuel from getting in the carb. There is a screen, (or should be) above the sediment bowl, and sometimes one in the carb inlet fitting. If any inline filters have been added, they can be too restrictive for a gravity flow system.

A good test, get a clean glass, look under the carb, there will be a drain plug. With the fuel valve open, remove the plug, catch the flow in the glass.

It should have a full flow, then slow to a trickle as the bowl empties down. If there is no flow, or the flow stops, or slows to a drip, there is insufficient fuel delivery.

Look at what was caught. If it is cloudy, or water in the bottom, or rust chunks, dirt in the glass, the tank is contaminated and will eventually need to be taken off and cleaned. Whatever is in the glass will be in the carb. If clean gas doesn't fix it, the carb will need to come apart and be cleaned. Don't be afraid of it, they are simple and field serviceable. Lots of info online, just work over a clean surface so as not to loose anything. Many times it can be eased apart without needing a kit.

Hope this covers it, let us know...
 

Steve, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your help! I will post back here tomorrow when I run through the checklist and try to get it running.
 
Is you tractor converted to 12V? If so and it has a resistor it could have gone bad. That would mean no spark. I had one do that once. Ran good when I shut it off, wouldn't start again. Had to change the
resistor. The guys answering below know what they are talking about. You just have to start narrowing down whats wrong by eliminating whats not wrong. The good news you can figure it out without spending money
on parts. Once you figure it out you may need to spend money on parts but don't throw parts at it as part of trouble shooting.
 
Steve i bet you would have be a state champion in the tractor trouble shooting contest back it the day. I was on the FFA team and it was a lot of fun. But I was just the seat man, so I didn't really know all the details.

I like your very systematic and thorough answer! One thing that I do, not sure if its good or not, is to use a screw driver to manually open the points then check for spark out of the coil. Just a quick way to be sure the ignition system is getting power.
 
This tractor is good about getting an oil film inside the distributer cap. Remove cap and spray inside with a cleaner to wash out oil film.
 
There is only about 2 inches deep of gas left in the tank, so I am going to add more gas before I try anything else. I am afraid I flooded the engine, so what should I do after I add more gas and before I try to start it again?

Also, when I go to start it after adding more gas, how far should I have the throttle up and how much should I choke it when I go to start it?

Thanks,

John
 
I want to test the distributor coil wire, as Steve suggested. I am a complete rookie at tractors, so when he says to spin the engine through after pulling the wire and putting it 1/2 inch away from something metal to see if a spark jumps, how do I go about spinning the engine through?
 
(quoted from post at 12:44:00 03/30/19) There is only about 2 inches deep of gas left in the tank, so I am going to add more gas before I try anything else. I am afraid I flooded the engine, so what should I do after I add more gas and before I try to start it again?

Also, when I go to start it after adding more gas, how far should I have the throttle up and how much should I choke it when I go to start it?

Thanks,

John

If it's flooded, don't choke it at all. That will make it worse. Spin it over without choking it and see if it starts. It may take a minute or two.
 

Thanks! By spin it over, you mean with the electric starting motor? Also, when the other poster said to check distributor spark by spinning the engine, does that mean by hand or with the electric starter? Like I said, I am new to tractors and do not know all the terminology or even the basics.
 
(quoted from post at 13:42:41 03/30/19) I want to test the distributor coil wire, as Steve suggested. I am a complete rookie at tractors, so when he says to spin the engine through after pulling the wire and putting it 1/2 inch away from something metal to see if a spark jumps, how do I go about spinning the engine through?

Just spin it over with the starter. If you cannot reach the starter due to holding the wire, you may need to get a helper to do this.
 
Ok, so I tested the distributor wire and there was no spark. However, I am not sure if I tested the correct wire or tested it correctly. I unplugged the center wire from the distributor and held the end of it about 1/4 to 1/2 an inch away from a piece of metal, turned on the ignition, and used the electric starter. The starting motor worked, but no spark jumped. Did I do something wrong? In the picture, I circled the wire I unplugged.

mvphoto33663.jpg

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Yes. That's the coil wire. Your procedure sounds correct if the piece of metal was grounded to the tractor. Although the gap you mentioned might be too much.

I suspect you may be overthinking this thing. It was running fine a couple weeks ago. My guess would be that it's a little flooded.

These old engines have funny little quirks about starting. Sometimes you need to give them a little more choke, sometimes a little less. Sometimes a little more throttle, sometimes a little less. When you've owned it for a while you'll know what it takes, but you will have gained that knowledge from flooding it and having to get it going again.

By now the spark plugs are probably pretty wet, which will make it even harder to start. Do you know how to start a vehicle by rolling it down a hill or being towed and letting the clutch out while in gear with the switch on? I realize you're a young guy, and may not have learned how to do this since most vehicles nowadays have automatic transmission. Back in the day, when people were too cheap to go buy a new battery, we just parked our car on a hill to get it going until payday.

If you're not interested in starting it this way, you'll probably need to pick up a new set of plugs, put a battery charger on it and crank away until it starts. It's not good for the starter, but you do what you gotta do.
 
Ok, so maybe I am overthinking it and it is just flooded. My battery is still charged and the starting motor still works properly, so would I still need to try a rolling start to get it going?

What should I try now?

I really appreciate everyones help, I am a little confused right now about what to do, but I am sure this will be a good learning experience for me.

John
 
(quoted from post at 00:09:42 03/31/19) Ok, so maybe I am overthinking it and it is just flooded. My battery is still charged and the starting motor still works properly, so would I still need to try a rolling start to get it going?

What should I try now?

I really appreciate everyones help, I am a little confused right now about what to do, but I am sure this will be a good learning experience for me.

John
Try putting a battery charger on it and see if you can crank it up. Even though you say the battery is hot enough to crank normal, you might be using all your juice for the starter and not have much left for the coil. A battery charger solves that problem.

Since you didn't mention if you understand pull starting, I'd wait on that. For the novice, it can be dangerous.
 
You can pull the plugs and heat the electrode end with a propane torch to dry them if they are wet, that sometimes works. If they are dry when you pull them out, chances are it is not flooded.
 

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