Paving Driveway

nrowles · Mar 8, 2019

Not that I don't trust my paving contractor but just curious from any of you that have experience with driveway paving. They gave me 3 options. Cheapest: base layer only - No! Mid: One layer of what they call ID3. Most Expensive: Base layer and top layer.

He has me doing the ID3 at 3". It is 25% cheaper than 2 layer mostly due to the time to only do 1 layer compared to 2. He said it will last just as long as the 2 layer if I seal it every 2 years. The 2 layer would need sealed every 4 years. He also said it won't look quite as smooth since it is both layers mixed into one but it will still look nice.

I have 7,441 sq ft and it's going to be $16,000. $2.15 per sq ft. It is 130' lane 12' wide and then open area about 115'x50'.

Anybody have any thoughts or input? I'm definitely not going the cheap way out and the ID3 he recommends as just as good as the 2 layer, plus it's cheaper.

retired farmer · Mar 8, 2019

Several years ago a neighbor built a new house and put in a paved driveway. Looked pretty cheaply done to me. It started getting cracks across it within a year. About every two years they come back and patch the cracks and spray on a layer of tar.

dpendzic · Mar 8, 2019

I worked in driveway paving all thru my high school and college years---we always used two layer-a 1 1/2 inch binder course and then a 1 inch top course--those are compacted thickness.
Then I became a civil engineer and the specs were always for 3 layers. the asphalt doesn't compact as well when it is thick so the 2 layer is inherently better and denser. also the weight of the roller/compacter is important to get a dense impervious pavement. If you are in a freezing climate drainage of water is also very important---and of course the sub soil strength very important

nrowles · Mar 8, 2019

I bet that was just the base layer with no top layer.

nrowles · Mar 8, 2019

(quoted from post at 13:28:12 03/08/19) I worked in driveway paving all thru my high school and college years---we always used two layer-a 1 1/2 inch binder course and then a 1 inch top course--those are compacted thickness.
Then I became a civil engineer and the specs were always for 3 layers. the asphalt doesn't compact as well when it is thick so the 2 layer is inherently better and denser. also the weight of the roller/compacter is important to get a dense impervious pavement. If you are in a freezing climate drainage of water is also very important---and of course the sub soil strength very important

Yes they are planning for the runoff and the base is very hard.

Charlie M · Mar 8, 2019

We had ours done last year. My drive way is about 100" long and 2 cars wide. I already had a good base but that is a starting point. They did 3 in of the course stone and said wait until next year and they
will come back and do a 1 in final layer. I'm in western NY so I think they wanted to wait and see what happened to the base before finishing it and giving me a warranty.My cost was $7000 total and that
included tearing up some old black top near the house and grading the entire base. I had a another contractor quote me $9000 and wanted to put down a new base. I knew the base was good as we had done that much
a few years ago. Mine has held up real well so far.

Traditional Farmer · Mar 8, 2019

Most homeowner paved driveways will not stand up to a heavy truck like a concrete mixer no matter what they tell you.Was always an issue when I worked at the concrete plant.We always had
the owner sign a release form before we'd go onto a paved driveway which had the warning about damage on it.Remember one time a homeowner said he'd called the paver and asked and the paver said it wouldn't be a problem.Owner signed the form,very hot day,9 yards of concrete when the truck pulled out it looked like ruts had been put in a wet field on the pavement.

DR. EVIL · Mar 8, 2019

To Me, "paving" means concrete. We bought our house 25 years ago off a concrete flat work contractor and
his wife. Some places the concrete is 12 inches thick. And the concrete was not new when we bought the
house. 30+ years and it still looks good.

Mike M · Mar 8, 2019

I would for sure get a few quotes for concrete too.

nrowles · Mar 8, 2019

The worker that came to do the estimate said his driveway is paved and a garbage truck drives on it every week. I do know to be cautious though. I'm assuming the hot days like you mention would be worse?

What are the pros and cons of concrete? I have not even considered it. I definitely like the look of macadam/pavement better.

Mark in Upstate · Mar 8, 2019

My $.02.
Normal installation of a drive:
A. remove a minimum of 6" depth of whatever material is there.
B. compact this sub grade, if damp do not use a vibratory compactor.
C. provide woven geotextile down length and width.
D. provide 6" of a crushed item 4 (needs to be crushed for facets and fines) - compact.
E. provide 3" of a type 6 top asphalic cement pavement, compacted.
F. let weather for a year, then seal.
Someone's math is wrong. I get 7,310sf.
Item 4 limestone is $8.25/ton to purchase (or 1.5T/cy)7310x11.78x6/2000=T 258T+-.
A drive that size is not inexpensive
Type 6 top asphalic cement approx. $125./T or 7,441x12.78x3/2000=T 140T+-.
One other issue, a base coat and top coat of asphalic cement pavement don't MIX. so that is BS.

Russ from MN · Mar 8, 2019

To me pavement means blacktop, (asphalt) In MN the salt that drips off your vehicle is really hard on concrete, and blacktop
melts off a lot faster when the sun comes out.

jm. · Mar 8, 2019

Most home drive ways around these parts are the ID3 . If the old drive has stone and been there for years they grade down hard and lay the asphalt. On new homes they lay dense grade stone drive on it for the home construction and by the time the trucks are in and out it will be compacted enough for pavement. At the time (10 years ago) I did mine concrete 4 inches thick was just as cheap . That was during the oil crisis . Now I think asphalt is somewhat cheaper. Living in the south really has its advantages , no real freezing and thawing so drives can be constructed a lot lighter. Mine was 850 feet 10 fit wide and then 3750 sq ft here at the house . Ran right at 22 thousand but I had a perfect base only had to grade it and form it for the concrete pour. We have been in and out with 80,000lb grain loads with no problems.

Rkh · Mar 8, 2019

Mine is blacktoped, just be aware that if you have trees nearby, you will get cracks from tree roots, especially if you are in a cold climate.

Steve@Advance · Mar 8, 2019

You say you trust your paver.

If you really do know and trust him, that's half the battle!

Around here, paving contractors are among the most corrupt and dishonest of them all!

Very common for them to lead off with a lie, "I've got left over asphalt, and I can make you a deal today..."

I would get bids from more than one contractor, and check their credentials with the BBB. If they don't have a brick and mortar business yard, RUN! No way to chase one down that only works out of his truck.

Part of making the decision would also include seeing some of his past work, not from the last few weeks, but look at something 10 years old. Also talk to the home owner.

You can also do some of your own research, look around the neighborhood, stop and ask who did their work and if they were happy with the job.

You live in a totally different temperature climate than I do. Asphalt is not a viable option here. It melts and ruts out, the sun bakes the solvent out, it turns to cracked open mess in a few years.

Some damage is from the sun, freezing, tree roots, but mostly because of contractors not doing what they say they will do. Somehow paying for 2 inches only gets you 1/2 inch!

I would also get bids on concrete. Here, a good concrete job will last a lifetime, but we don't have the deep freeze cycles you have.

jimg.allentown · Mar 8, 2019

Concrete is my first choice. The pro items:
1) Stronger. will not get ruts in hot weather or under heavy loads.
2) Does not need to be resealed periodically.
3) Does not deteriorate from oil drips or fuel spills.
3) you can jack up a vehicle on it without doing damage.

Con items:
1) Stains from oil drips or spills.
2) Cost. Initially costs more to install.

Blacktop/asphalt/macadam or whatever your pet name for it is:

Pro items:
1) smoother than concrete.
2) does not stain as easily
3) less expensive initially.
4) can be spot repaired economically

Con items:
1) will get ruts in hot weather or under heavy loads.
2) needs resealing periodically
3) will dissolve in spots from oil drips or spills.
4) a jack will sink into blacktop if you jack up a vehicle.

Those are my observations. Myself, I would prefer concrete. YMMV.

GEO-TH, In · Mar 8, 2019

Concrete. No sealing, no maintenance.
Put down correctly outlast black top.

300jk · Mar 8, 2019

I have never paved a driveway. I have though been in heavy highway
construction for 22 years and put down 10's of thousands of tons in roads
and highways. Mark in Upstate is the closest to what I have done in the
past. Box out(remove dirt) and compact. Add crushed 2" stone (Usually 6
to 8") compact stone. Fabric is used for soil stabilization in soft areas
if necessary. Usually the inspector wants to see a "proof roll after the
stone is graded. That would be a loaded 10 wheel dump truck driving on the
area slowly while he watches. If is does move or the truck sinks the area
is dug down deeper and more stone added. Once approved then paving with 3
layers. Base, binder, and top. Most local roads here have 8 inches of
blacktop when done. Highways and interstates usually more. While 8 inches
is overkill for most driveways I would be scared of putting down only 3. I
know I added a lot of what might seem like useless info, but if it was
mine that's how it would be done. The biggest thing is a HARD, STABLE base
under it. The price you were quoted seems kinda high for what your
getting, but I am not sure what the materials are going for where your at
now. Most driveways probably won't fail during the warranty they give you
if they give you one at all. Could be a few years down the road. I would
hate to see you spend that kind of money and end up with a poor quality
job that falls apart in 6 or 8 years. I am not trying to be a know it
all, I'm just telling you my personal experience and what I do factually
know.

Billy NY · Mar 8, 2019

You need a well compacted, well drained sub base, binder course (larger aggregate) and a wear course (smaller aggregate) if you want a proper "bituminous asphaltic concrete" driveway and parking area. Look up any D.O.T. road design. Look at the thickness of the designs, figure your loading and see what makes sense.

I don't like the idea of just a binder course at 3" thick, too porous and it's not meant as a wear course. What is this guys background and or education supporting his ability to recommend asphalt paving designs? 2 layers of material mixed into one, both materials are predominantly 2 different size aggregate, though each will need fines to work, they are 2 different materials that are placed in layers. Maybe the plant makes this up for him or is a composite of the 2 materials, I have never heard of it. I've hauled hundreds of loads of each on highway jobs from many different plants, never seen or heard of this.

3"binder course and sealing it every 2 years, makes no sense, too porous for long term use and sealer is not a material that fills the porosity. You get what you pay for with this. Concrete is superior for durability, but definitely much more expensive.

Tracy Brown · Mar 8, 2019

Last time I did a job bout that size, 6" steel reinforced concrete was much cheaper. Any petroleum based product has gone thru the roof.

nrowles · Mar 8, 2019

Thanks for all the input but I really can't see myself going with concrete. I will have to look into it more.

The paving contractor has been well known in my area for decades and I see his signs all over. I will be getting a second estimate from another paving contractor that has done a friends driveway which was also the ID3. He highly recommended.

This is a new construction driveway that is 3 years old so I think my base should be pretty solid. They said they would only be grading right in front of the garage doors and then out far enough to get an adequate slope away.

300jk · Mar 8, 2019

Mark I agree with your post on how to do it, I just don't understand your math. If you take 7310( the square footage) multiply by .5 ( 6 inches of stone) I get 3655 as my volume in square feet. Divide 3655 by 27 ( 27 cubic feet per cubic yard) and I come up with 135.37 as how many yards of stone are needed. Take 135.37 multiply that by 1.5 ton per yard you used for the stone and I came up with 203.5 ton of stone needed. Just curious how you figure things ! I always do length x width x depth all in feet. That gives a cubic foot number. Divide by 27 and that gives you a cubic yard number. Multiply that by the weight per cubic yard and that gives you tonnage. I really didn't follow any of your math ! Guess I don't follow how you did it !

Bob · Mar 8, 2019

A simple gravel or pearock driveway works for me vs. $16,000 for "paving" that will need $$$ maintenance every year 'til it gets to the point it has to be replaced.

WHAT are you trying to do?

newhollandnut · Mar 8, 2019

Not to try to steer you away from your blacktop and don?t
know anything about the driveway but I got my hands on
several loads of blacktop milling and I love it. Spreads like
gravel compacted it and if I ever need to I can just top dress
with gravel. Where we turn into the driveway it has set up hard
as a rock

nrowles · Mar 9, 2019

(quoted from post at 18:07:55 03/08/19) A simple gravel or pearock driveway works for me vs. $16,000 for "paving" that will need $$$ maintenance every year 'til it gets to the point it has to be replaced.

WHAT are you trying to do?

Good to know what works for you.

I'm trying to pave my driveway.

nrowles · Mar 9, 2019

(quoted from post at 19:04:23 03/08/19) Not to try to steer you away from your blacktop and don?t
know anything about the driveway but I got my hands on
several loads of blacktop milling and I love it. Spreads like
gravel compacted it and if I ever need to I can just top dress
with gravel. Where we turn into the driveway it has set up hard
as a rock

My daughters babysitter/daycare did this and it didn't last a year. Although the driveway was horrible to begin with and ruts out real bad and gets a lot of traffic.

I really don't see that holding up very long at all. I'm looking for something smooth that will plow off and melt easy and doesn't have loose material. It would have to be extremely cheap for me to try it. I know price can vary but how much area did you do and what was the cost?

Hoenes · Mar 9, 2019

Yes Steve. The traveling gypsys' got my father in law. He paid (in good faith) for 4 inches of blacktop. That was before it was rolled. Ended up about 1 1/2 " thick. Attorney Generals' office even got involved. (They swindled a whole bunch of people) Nothing they could do.

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