anti-freeze freezing

Ellis Kinney · Feb 23, 2019

I have heard for years that anti-freeze must be mixed with a certain amount of water to activate it. If that is the case, why didn't the 4 gallons of anti-
freeze sitting on the shelf in my barn freeze and bust the containers when the temperature dropped to 11 degrees below zero a couple of weeks ago? Ellis

rrlund · Feb 23, 2019

I've never heard of mixing it to activate it. Most is concentrated so it can be mixed 50/50,some is ready to use in a lower concentration,but mixing 'necessary'?

JMOR · Feb 23, 2019

what you have heard for years is not true. Another: set battery on concrete or earth will such charge out of it. Black cats and many more.
It will offer protection to lower temps at proper ratio of water/ethylene. Glycol.

MarkB_MI · Feb 23, 2019

"Straight" antifreeze is already slightly diluted so it doesn't freeze in transit. But even straight ethylene glycol isn't going to burst its container if it freezes. Expansion when freezing is a behavior that is peculiar to water and a few other substances. And it's a good thing water expands when it freezes, otherwise the oceans would freeze from the bottom up.

rustyfarmall · Feb 23, 2019

Mixing it 50/50 has nothing to do with freezing, but MAY allow for better cooling of the engine.

teddy52food · Feb 23, 2019

11 degrees is not near cold enough.

timcasbolt · Feb 23, 2019

(quoted from post at 15:46:05 02/23/19) I have heard for years that anti-freeze must be mixed with a certain amount of water to activate it. If that is the case, why didn't the 4 gallons of anti-
freeze sitting on the shelf in my barn freeze and bust the containers when the temperature dropped to 11 degrees below zero a couple of weeks ago? Ellis

People used to say that you shouldn't put straight anti freeze into your vehicle because anti freeze was inferior in it's cooling abilities when compared with water. Which is more or less true, although not usually an issue unless the engine is fully loaded to it's maximum. I suspect what you have heard is a morphed version of this.

MarkB_MI · Feb 23, 2019

> what you have heard for years is not true.

Straight ethylene glycol freezes at +9F. So it does need to be mixed with a certain amount of water to keep it from freezing in typical winter conditions.

Bret4207 · Feb 23, 2019

(quoted from post at 11:46:05 02/23/19) I have heard for years that anti-freeze must be mixed with a certain amount of water to activate it. If that is the case, why didn't the 4 gallons of anti-
freeze sitting on the shelf in my barn freeze and bust the containers when the temperature dropped to 11 degrees below zero a couple of weeks ago? Ellis

Try it at 50 below and see what happens. 11 below is a brisk night around here. I suppose the question I should ask is did you look to see if the anti-freeze was getting slushy? That happens prior to freezing.

JD Seller · Feb 23, 2019

The other have posted the facts. Straight anti-freeze has a lower freeze temperature but does not transfer as many BTUs as a 50/50 mix. So it is the summer issue over a winter one.

I had a car freeze with the 35 below. It slushed up enough the water pump could not turn fast enough for the belt to not slip. I could turn it slowly by hand. warmed the car up a little it was fine. I looked at the jugs of anti-freeze I have, most shows 50/50 mix only protecting down to -35/40 degrees.

redforlife · Feb 23, 2019

How do you know it didn't freeze, just not enough to break the container it was in? Did you actually poor it out to see if it was froze, or even chunky or slushy??

Concentrated antifreeze has a lower freezing point than water even if not mixed with water. I personally don't know at what temperature it would take for it to freeze solid.

Just about everywhere I go now, sells both straight and premixed antifreeze. I always by the straight and mix it myself. But I have found when I buy it, I have to look very close at the label to know I am buying the straight. You didn't buy some already mixed by mistake did you?

On another note, if you are like me, I store mixed antifreeze after I mix it in the very same containers I buy it in. I have been around it enough to know by how dark green it is wether it is mixed or not. You didn't by chance add the water to it 6, 8, 12 months ago and forgot that you already mixed it?

When I am changing antifreeze in a system, I might dump one gallon of water in, then one gallon of antifreeze in, and so on. But before the system is full, (less than a gallon and a half of being full), I switch to dumping it in already mixed. That is, if I am even on what I already dumped in. That way I stay right on my mixture in the system. Hence, that's why I end up with mixed antifreeze in a straight antifreeze container.

My two cents.

Crazy Horse · Feb 23, 2019

Remember that we still refer to antifreeze (pure or mixed) as coolant .... and that's it's main job, to keep the engine cool when running. The fact that it doesn't freeze is a safety factor to prevent engine damage. Water transfers heat much better than antifreeze .... see link below. If a guy lived in say Central America where it never freezes, engine cooling would work better using pure water. BUT, even down there, wise motorists would use some kind of mix to deal with the corrosion factor using pure water. The mixture combats corrosion in the cooling system. I'm sure most of you knew this already ....
Untitled URL Link

544hydro · Feb 23, 2019

Antifreeze makes use of ethylene glycol which is mixed with water in order to both help cool your engine and resist freezing. The most common ratios used are 70 percent water to 30 percent antifreeze for very warm parts of the country, but in colder areas a safer ratio – and the one most manufacturers recommend – is 50:50 antifreeze to water.

What’s interesting about ethylene glycol is that it’s only when mixed with water that it gains its amazing ability to resist freezing. In a 50/50 mix, you’re looking at a mixture that can go down to nearly -50 degrees F before crystallization starts to occur. In a similar way, it also boosts the boiling point of water, providing protection at both ends of the spectrum, and outperforming pure water when dealing with environmental extremes.

Kansasredneck · Feb 23, 2019

Anti-freeze doesn't expand like water.

rusty6 · Feb 23, 2019

I have never seen pure, unmixed antifreeze actually freeze and we get about as cold as anybody here in Sask. I have seen windshield washer anti freeze crystallilze and almost freeze in the jug. I've also see radiators "gell up" when driving into a severe cold wind at super low temps. If the anti freeze in the system is not strong enough the cold air rushing through the rad will gell it up and slow or stop the flow of coolant to the engine. So you rad freezes up and your engine boils. That is why it was always the practice here to have a "winterfront" over the grille or radiator. A piece of carpet or cardboard makes a big difference.

Janicholson · Feb 23, 2019

Reality check. Jim
info

Crazy Horse · Feb 23, 2019

JAN ..... pretty easy to understand ..... assuming you have a PhD in physics and chemistry. Remember, most of us here are simple folk ..... LOL !!

rustred · Feb 23, 2019

uum , because it did not freeze. it will no nothing sitting in a jug. just like diesel fuel it will jell up if too strong in the radiator of a running engine. has to be mixed 50/50 or higher.

Russ from MN · Feb 23, 2019

That's a lot of good information, thanks!

Janicholson · Feb 23, 2019

I disagree. Individually we each have clusters of experience and knowledge that surpass 99% of all others. Collectively we are incredible. Jim

Andy Martin · Feb 23, 2019

(quoted from post at 09:06:44 02/23/19) Reality check. Jim
info

Unfortunately that link does not go far enough.

72/28 Ethylene Glycol/Water is the eutectic point, or lowest freezing point of the mixtures. Straight Ethylene Glycol will freeze at 9F. Slight additions of water drop the freezing point quickly.

If you read on antifreeze jugs they clearly state it must be mixed with water.

Try this chart.

http://www.veximchem.com/products M/ethylene glycol antifreeze coolant.JPG

sms · Feb 23, 2019

Our oldest boy had a radiator replaced and the garage put in pure antifreeze. He was stranded on a back road in the Adirondack Mts in the middle of the night @ about -36F when the truck was overheating due to coolant not circulating.

SVcummins · Feb 23, 2019

At about 40 below zero Fahrenheit straight antifreeze will go slushy

mmfan55 · Feb 23, 2019

I worked for a farm supply store when in high school. That winter experienced a long cold spell. The anti freeze in the unheated warehouse did freeze. Not solid, or burst the jugs but very slushy. No longer liquid. This is in Kentucky. No comparison to "up north ".

DWF · Feb 23, 2019

Maybe if you used river water, that would lower the freeze point of water.
DWF

Brian Jasper co. Ia · Feb 23, 2019

Straight anti-freeze doesn't freeze. This is one of those old wives tales that has no truth to it. There are 2 reasons for mixing water with anti freeze. First is in high concentrations ethylene glycol is flammable. Have a hose burst with straight antifreeze on a hot day and you're going to have a car fire. 2nd is heat transfer. Ethylene glycol has poor heat transfer properties by itself. The 3rd is when it gets extremely cold it does not freeze, but it does thicken. It can thicken to the point the water pump can't circulate it through the radiator.

MarkB_MI · Feb 24, 2019

A couple of useful references:

First, <a href="http://www.veximchem.com/products%20M/mono%20ethylene%20glycol-antifreeze.html">here is a chart that shows the freezing point of ethylene glycol/water mixtures up to 100 percent glycol</a>. It clearly shows that the freezing point rises rapidly when the ethylene glycol concentration exceeds 70 percent.

Next, here is the <a href="https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/a1/a1e4bb1a-8d1c-49aa-ba8e-5b5c826e2082.pdf">MSDS for good ole Prestone</a>. In Section 9, it lists the freezing point of Prestone as about -35F (-37C). Hmm. That's well below the +9F freezing point of pure ethylene glycol! What gives? Based on the previous chart, that indicates a mixture of about 90 percent ethylene glycol. Well, go back to Section 3 of the MSDS. It vaguely reports the ethylene glycol composition as "75-95%", with up to 15 percent other ingredients (presumably corrosion inhibitors). That leaves up to 10 percent of the composition unaccounted for! I suspect that 10 percent is water, which would agree perfectly with the -35F freezing point. (I don't think water has to be disclosed on an MSDS.)

Why the water? I can think of three reasons:

1. The glycol/water mixture won't freeze or thicken at any temperature where someone is likely to be servicing a vehicle; it would really bum you out it you went to add antifreeze to your car at ten below and it wouldn't pour out of the jug.

2. The corrosion inhibitors might not dissolve in pure glycol.

3. Water is cheaper than ethylene glycol.

Conclusion: "straight" antifreeze is not straight ethylene glycol.

Andy Martin · Feb 24, 2019

(quoted from post at 05:51:23 02/24/19) A couple of useful references:

First, <a href="http://www.veximchem.com/products%20M/mono%20ethylene%20glycol-antifreeze.html">here is a chart that shows the freezing point of ethylene glycol/water mixtures up to 100 percent glycol</a>. It clearly shows that the freezing point rises rapidly when the ethylene glycol concentration exceeds 70 percent.

Next, here is the <a href="https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/a1/a1e4bb1a-8d1c-49aa-ba8e-5b5c826e2082.pdf">MSDS for good ole Prestone</a>. In Section 9, it lists the freezing point of Prestone as about -35F (-37C). Hmm. That's well below the +9F freezing point of pure ethylene glycol! What gives? Based on the previous chart, that indicates a mixture of about 90 percent ethylene glycol. Well, go back to Section 3 of the MSDS. It vaguely reports the ethylene glycol composition as "75-95%", with up to 15 percent other ingredients (presumably corrosion inhibitors). That leaves up to 10 percent of the composition unaccounted for! I suspect that 10 percent is water, which would agree perfectly with the -35F freezing point. (I don't think water has to be disclosed on an MSDS.)

Why the water? I can think of three reasons:

1. The glycol/water mixture won't freeze or thicken at any temperature where someone is likely to be servicing a vehicle; it would really bum you out it you went to add antifreeze to your car at ten below and it wouldn't pour out of the jug.

2. The corrosion inhibitors might not dissolve in pure glycol.

3. Water is cheaper than ethylene glycol.

Conclusion: "straight" antifreeze is not straight ethylene glycol.

Well put!

The idea that ethylene glycol won't freeze is the old wives tale.

Ethylene Glycol is not as much fire hazard as the rubber hoses and belts under the hood. It has a flammability rating of 1 (slight) and an autoignition temperature of 748F.

The key is that antifreeze is not 100% ethylene glycol and the other constituents lower the freezing point. 100% ethylene glycol is also a syrupy liquid which does not pour well.

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