O/t electrical questions for electricians

It?s a storm day here and I was watching some YouTube videos about circuits and wiring. One video I watched said as of 2017 it?s mandatory for electricians in the US to torque their connections to prevent arching. Just wondering if this is new code in your country now and if we can expect those changes to migrate north? To get an Ideal torque screwdriver on amazon in Canada is over $600 CDN😬

All allen lugs and hex head connections always got torqued any how. He is talking about torqueing screwdriver { which are a lot cheaper than 600 bucks]. He also interpets the code to say these torque tools must be on site which was not in the code [his interpitation ]. I would challenge him to bring his own torque wrench if he wanted to check my job . He can check break away torques. No where in the code does it say you have to provide torque wrenches only torqued connections. He does seem like a decent attitude inspector.

When I started doing my own electrical work 45 years ago, the local inspector was a real nice guy. He told me to tighten the big lugs as tight as I could get them and then give them another 1/4 turn! He told me when I got the house roughed in to call him, and he would come and help me lay it out, then it would be done right! What a nice guy, the only corrections I had was a couple of wire holes were too close to the front of the studs in the corners, I had to put protective plates over them.

It sounds like a good idea but it would require more time and tools that would come at a cost passed on to the customer. I asked my electrician friend whose been in the business close to 50 years and he?s never heard of it here yet.

Most torques for screwdriver size connections are not speced out or given.

I'm NOT an electrician as you asked, for but did spend much of my life career as an electrical power distribution design engineer who developed plans and specs which electricians followed and had to attend NEC educational Seminars and Workshops on a regular basis. WOW that's an expensive tool, Id hate to have to buy one lol but I'm retired and not an electrician either..

PROPER TORQUE is an important and critical part of electrical connections moreso then lay persons understand. Those values are the result of material science and engineering and aren't specified just for the heck of it by the manufacturers. If too loose carbon (and resultant heat developing resistance) and arcing and burning and/or loosening can happen, but if too tight the wire or lugs may be damaged.

I'm rusty on the latest codes HOWEVER although while the correct torque values may be specified (for good engineering reasons) I'm not aware of any requirements of what specific tools must be used or who must own them etc. ITS JUST THAT CONNECTIONS MUST BE TORQUED CORRECTLY SINCE IF NOT THERES A FIRE OR LIFE RISK !!!!!!!!!!!! I cant imagine proper torque to be a bad thing AS IT CAN SAVE A LIFE OR PREVENT A FIRE. However I have no idea what the latest code may say about who must own or use whatever tools ONLY THE CONNECTIONS BE PROPERLY TORQUED and as an electrical engineer I sure agree 100%

That being said and before anyone wants to flame on me or the NEC, the main thing is they be checked periodically and kept "tight" even if the precise exact perfect numerical torque value isn't exactly achieved IE keep them tight not over tight but never loose NOW THATS JUST COMMON SENSE EVEN IF YOU DONT OWN A TORQUE DEVICE Well Duhhhhhhhhh lol

NOTE there are different codes and/or different versions which may or not have been adopted in certain jurisdictions SO CHECK WITH LOCAL AUTHORITY not any of us here. There may or may not be authority or codes where you live DONT ASK ME IT YOUR HOUSE AND YOUR LIFE AND YOUR RISK to wire or torque or never torque or check as you well please.

It will be interesting to see the opinions of other trained professional electricians and electrical engineers on the question of proper torque, good or bad?? necessary or not??? what the codes say??? does anyone even care lol

Take care n be safe yall, best wishes n God Bless

John T

How much torque are they suppose to have?

Part of the PM I do on load banks is to torture all fasteners on the contractors and resistors. There is hundreds of contractors with 6 screws each so it takes some time. A thermal camera will show you the loose ones before you start have any trouble too.

Not a licensed electrician, but I've done my share of electrical work, mostly control wiring for machines.

I can't imagine any electrician taking the time to torque every connection.

I suspect that law was lobbied by the component mfgs to cover their tails when something has a melt down or an expensive component is returned with a broken case from over tightening.

Tightening lugs and connectors takes more of a feel than anything. I take a look at the component, the application, see how well it appears to be made, tighten it accordingly.

What usually doesn't happen is going back and retightening the larger connections, especially the high amp connectors, and machinery that has vibration.

(quoted from post at 15:42:00 02/13/19) How much torque are they suppose to have?

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Approximately three quarters of a turn more than the red nut in the photo!

(quoted from post at 16:57:08 02/13/19) Tightening lugs and connectors takes more of a feel than anything. I take a look at the component, the application, see how well it appears to be made, tighten it accordingly.

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I think you got it Steve.
A cheapo outlet sold at a big-box retailer might be made with 'soft' metal that can't handle high torque with draws on the fasteners (compression of the threads).

Steve, maybe you cant imagine it and I'm sure its different in different locations, but at our facility our in house plus our electrical contractors did torque all connections, at least when our inspectors oversaw or tested them or I did personally. We had pretty iron tights specs and inspectors but hey I'm sure in some places there are slackers and shoddy work grrrrrrrrrrr Loose connections is a fire waiting to happen so the electricians and contractors in our area at least took it seriously. Safety should be first when it comes to electricity !!!!!!!!

Take care now, nice chattin with you

John T

According to the video they said the torque specs should be printed/stamped on the connection. The panel they were working on in the video stated 35psi at the breaker. They used an Ideal torque screwdriver that you adjust the torque similar to a torque wrench and it made a loud snap in the video when the set torque was achieved. The guy claimed he twisted on it pretty good with a big screw driver then got 2 more full turns out of it when he torqued it.

How much torque (in pounds or whatever units) on the screws of a wall switch with 14GA copper wire?

Likely foot pounds not psi sorry

(quoted from post at 18:21:23 02/13/19) Likely foot pounds not psi sorry

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nch, as in "in-lbs". those little screws can't handle feet.

That?s more like it lol 35 in-lbs according to the video for the
breaker they were tightening down on a wire on

Yes John, I probably jumped to that conclusion too soon.

I've never worked around anything that was inspected any further than the city inspector, and they tend to be very easy. As long as there was a permit and a licensed electrician involved, it was basically a walk through just to say he was there.

Watching some of the home builder electrical contractors is scary! I don't know how that get away with some of the things they do! It's first and foremost "get it done quick, cheap, and when's Miller time?"! LOL

JMOR, one less than it took to break it! LOL

Now drive back into town for another one... Another .49 cents wasted!

Here?s amazon.com

Same screwdriver amazon.ca

Just use a 1/4 drive torque wrench and a socket with screw tips.

I understand the reason behind the regulation but I think that is going to far. Anyone that is a electrician would know the lugs need to be tight. Having a specific torque I think is silly. I don't think one torqued to 25lbs would give anyone any problems. It's the ones that are barely snug are more likely to be a problem.

Sounds like a good idea. I'm always concerned that I've undertorqued the screws when I'm working on a panel, but I don't want to strip them out, either. A torque wrench takes out the guesswork. My son, a licensed electrician, undertorqued some main disconnect connections when he helped me install a panel, so it's not just a matter of experience. The danger with an undertorqued connection is it may not cause problems immediately; it could be weeks or even years before you notice anything. By that time you may have to replace the panel.

I see Klein brand torque screwdrivers for less than $200 USD, other brands for much less. The high prices up north may just be due to temporary shortages.

I no longer have any current code books but everyone I ever saw states; that device must be installed per manufacturers specification. Although I've never seen anywhere about a particular torque device I have seen where specific TYPES (not brands) of install tools being specified and perhaps an example of said tool. I have torqued lugs with 3/8 torque wrench and proper sockets and have been asked in inspection if I torqued them, but have not ever been checked. Always kept torque wrench handy in the event they wanted to check. Standard practice was to go a little beyond spec.
I've seen conductors loosen after some use mostly on larger aluminum cables.
I haven't seen the current codes so things may have changed.

That's right Steve, in some small towns where an inspector is a low paid employee its no tellin what may pass lol

Nice chattin with you

John T

One thing to be aware of is a typical homeowner and people who are NOT trained competent electricians and electrical engineers are more familiar with small 100 amp or 200 amp residential services but much of an electricians work and where the NEC is more relevant IS HEAVY INDUSTRIAL AND COMMERCIAL WITH MOTOR CONTROL CENTERS AND SWITCHGEAR AND BUSS DUCTS.

And trust me proper torqued connections are important there and electricians are more apt to comply and inspectors actually care about torque. While non electricians think about all the small 12 or 14 gauge wires on the Ground and Neutral Buss those aren't where torque is as critical.

As an Electrical Engineer and Attorney I find it interesting that when an electrical or legal question is asked more respond then any other topic and all (including me lol) crawl out of the woodwork with all sorts of opinions, some good other less so, but hey all try to help and God Bless them for that and I enjoy the forum.

Keep connections tight but not overtight,,,,,,,,follow the NEC,,,,,,,and if in doubt consult local authority and trained professional electricians and engineers SUCH MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE AND/OR PREVENT A FIRE......... Orrrrrrr trust your life with your brother in laws Billy Bob and Bubba who wired their garage while downing a case of beer ? Your life your risk

John T

As Grandpa's Ford said, the code has always required electrical equipment to be installed per manufacturer's instructions. That includes torque. Remember, electrical wires and equipment only LOOK like they are not moving, but they move back and fourth 60 times a second, and screws and bolts will work loose if not properly torqued.

Manufacturers have been labeling their torque requirements for at least 30 years. All that is new is the code or NEC requirement.

The bolt or screw or whatever needs to be torqued to the level specified and labeled by the manufacturer. Applies to certain connectors but not all connectors. The screws on a wall outlet will not have a labeled torque requirement and so would not be subjected to the NEC torque requirement from 2017.

In essence, the big stuff such as large panels, transformer connections, etc.. , smaller stuff such as circuit breakers etc.. will list the torque requirements. The very small stuff will not.

(quoted from post at 21:36:29 02/13/19) I understand the reason behind the regulation but I think that is going to far. Anyone that is a electrician would know the lugs need to be tight. Having a specific torque I think is silly. I don't think one torqued to 25lbs would give anyone any problems. It's the ones that are barely snug are more likely to be a problem.

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Yeah, but you don't take into account that "tight" is a subjective thing, entirely up to the "feel" of the person turning the screwdriver. One person's "800lb gorilla tight" is another person's "barely snug."

On the other hand, 25in-lbs, is 25in-lbs. As long as your tool is even close to being calibrated, you're much closer to consistent and properly tightened than you will ever be going by feel.

Large corporations like UPS have retorquing programs for all there equipment . Contractor will send out fifty torque wrenches and call the hall for fifty men for one night of retorquing lugs throughout the facility

That will work too thank you. For now I?ll do whatever I?m instructed to do but I?ll definitely bring it up to the instructor this fall and see what they?re teaching on the subject now but I like the idea for like others say the big lugs. I?m too guilty of snapping off bolts on farm equipment, I don?t want to damage a panel or under tighten at the same time and potentially cause a failed inspection or even worse down the road. What the guy I help now does is he gives the wires a little tug before he installs the cover,says they should not have any movement.