All the trash talk about backfeeding power during an outage I thought I?d share how simple the one is were hooking up for my cousin. He still has a 60A service entrance and that?s still all he needs. We added in a second panel ,it?s a Square D panel with a manual generator lockout. We added a 60A breaker to the old panel and that feeds a 60A on the bottom left of the new one. All the essentials from the old one are being removed and added to the new one. Non essentials ex. dryer are being left on the old one. On the bottom right of the new one is another 60A that will run to a weather proof twist lock female receptical outside to plug the generator into. There?s a steel round wheel between the two bottom ones with a notch in it only allowing one to be turned on at a time and both have to be off to move the notch to the other breaker. I?m not sure what it will end up costing but it looks like a really simple fool proof setup for safety sake.
- Thread starter Philip d
- Start date
Butch(OH)
Well-known Member
Part of the problem here I think is simple terminology. People need to keep seperate in their minds an interlocked backfeed, which is a UL listed and utility approved safe method to wire up a generator vs a non interlocked backfeed which is not approved nor safe method. Mine is located at the meter base, same thing can be done at the breaker panel. Mine was installed by a bonded electrician and the generator is hard wired. ALL was approved by the utility, actually the plans came from them, good enough for this boy, LOL.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
square D makes a drop on 60 amp service panel with a built in transfer switch . No need to lengthen or shorten wires
To be safe and code compliant just remember the transfer method and what wires are being switched determines if you configure the genset as a "Separate Derived Source" and whether the Genset uses a Bonded or a Floating Neutral and the Neutrals "Earth Grounding"..
John T Retired Electrical Power Distribution Engineer
John T Retired Electrical Power Distribution Engineer
Goose
Well-known Member
My meter pole has a two way transfer switch. The high line power is wired to one side, the generator to the other. There's no way the generator can power the house without the high line being disconnected. And the wiring in the house is untouched.
When I wired it, I hired a licensed electrician to do it. He did it exactly the way I would have, but the $100 he charged me was great peace of mind knowing it was done right.
I'd advise anyone else to do the same.
When I wired it, I hired a licensed electrician to do it. He did it exactly the way I would have, but the $100 he charged me was great peace of mind knowing it was done right.
I'd advise anyone else to do the same.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
This is about the neatest way to “add” a transfer switch to a 60amp service . 18 full sized breakers .
No cutting , fitting, extending and shortening wires to fit in a “generator panel”. https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.60-amp-generator-panel-with-18-spaces-36-circuits-maximum.1000722301.html
You are probably stretched pretty thin right now. If time ever allows, try to brows through a practical wiring handbook, or some of the text books for the classes you will be taking soon. The electrician your working with may have some great recommendations. No need to study in depth yet, just brows to get the terms and a few general concepts. You will pick it up really fast, it won't be boring, and you will have a leg up when classes do start.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity."
"In the school of hard knocks, the tests always come first".
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity."
"In the school of hard knocks, the tests always come first".
caterpillar guy
Well-known Member
All this code crap would be fine if everytime you go to do something it was not changed or one place this is code and then the next county,township or whatever has something different. Just like things were wired by code 60 years ago or more and now it is not good enough. What a scam. Building codes the same way. In fact most codes are just that. Never satisfied.
I?m in my mid 40?s and just learning the trade now. There?s quite a difference in how things were done years ago compared to now in everything we do. I think in most cases it?s a case of a particular practice gets the blame for a loss of life that involves a major lawsuit that results in changes to try and prevent it going forward. Look at the case of the Humbolt bus crash. Severe unprecedented tragedy. The kicker is the truck driver was just new into the profession. Now they?re looking for major changes to how one becomes a CDL holder. Reports say the man drove past 2 stop sign ahead warnings. Then he drove straight past a stop sign with flashing lights at 55 mph without even attempting to slow down. He passed his driving test and had a couple of weeks driving afterwards with other drivers. He demonstrated that he was a safe driver and would stop at stop signs every time. It wasn?t inexperience that prevented him from stopping.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> This is about the neatest way to “add” a transfer switch to a 60amp service . 18 full sized breakers .
Hmm. <a href="https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.60-amp-generator-panel-with-18-spaces-36-circuits-maximum.1000722301.html">That link</a> goes to an empty page.
Hmm. <a href="https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.60-amp-generator-panel-with-18-spaces-36-circuits-maximum.1000722301.html">That link</a> goes to an empty page.
BACKFEEDING the Utility, which can be a hazard to utility workers (but hey they are well aware of and protect themselves), occurs when a genset gets accidentally connected to the incoming Utility wiring. Just as the transformer drops say 9600 volts down to 120/240, if you backfeed a gensets 120/240, the transformer steps that up to say 9600 volts YIKES !!!!!!!!!!
Neutral Ground Bonding, Floating versus Bonded Neutrals, Earth Grounding of the Neutral, Separate Derived Sources, Transfer switch methods (including if Neutral is switched or not ?) and safe proper gensest use and switching IS NOT EASILY UNDERSTANDABLE even to trained professional electricians and engineers, so its easy to see why there is confusion in the lay community. Typically professional electricians and engineers who are trained in and practice using the NEC daily have a different opinion regarding it then lay persons, that's to be expected and should come as no surprise whatsoever. That's the same in Plumbing and Building Codes and other professions, those deep long winded code books are hard to comprehend grrrrrrrrrrrrrr lol.
Having practiced in different jurisdictions I agree different communities may or may not have even adopted any particular code versions or any at all and that can be confusing even to the electricians let alone a homeowner.
If there are doubts which may be a hazard to your life or cause a fire my professional advice is to consult a trained competent professional electrician and engineer NOT your know it all brother in laws Billy Bob or Bubba who wired their garage while downing a case of beer and by golly it works fine. Its your home, your life and your own risk and I support any persons right to choose what they do in their own home, I sure did in mine.
Yall be safe best wishes n God Bless
John T Longgggggggggggg retired electrical engineer and rusty so nooooooooooo warranty lol do as yall please
Neutral Ground Bonding, Floating versus Bonded Neutrals, Earth Grounding of the Neutral, Separate Derived Sources, Transfer switch methods (including if Neutral is switched or not ?) and safe proper gensest use and switching IS NOT EASILY UNDERSTANDABLE even to trained professional electricians and engineers, so its easy to see why there is confusion in the lay community. Typically professional electricians and engineers who are trained in and practice using the NEC daily have a different opinion regarding it then lay persons, that's to be expected and should come as no surprise whatsoever. That's the same in Plumbing and Building Codes and other professions, those deep long winded code books are hard to comprehend grrrrrrrrrrrrrr lol.
Having practiced in different jurisdictions I agree different communities may or may not have even adopted any particular code versions or any at all and that can be confusing even to the electricians let alone a homeowner.
If there are doubts which may be a hazard to your life or cause a fire my professional advice is to consult a trained competent professional electrician and engineer NOT your know it all brother in laws Billy Bob or Bubba who wired their garage while downing a case of beer and by golly it works fine. Its your home, your life and your own risk and I support any persons right to choose what they do in their own home, I sure did in mine.
Yall be safe best wishes n God Bless
John T Longgggggggggggg retired electrical engineer and rusty so nooooooooooo warranty lol do as yall please
showcrop
Well-known Member
Butch, I used your link and searched for Back Feed and got a lot of hits and I searched through all of the ones with close to the searched for words, but I found just one referring to back-up power hook-up, and that use was by the person asking the question not by Square D. It looks like you will have to give me the page and the first few words in order for me to see if you really have found a correct use for it.
Butch(OH)
Well-known Member
Try this link, I am not very good at such
but link should show 578 hits on Square
Ds web site for back fed or reverse fed
equipment. Some is Q/A but a lot is
product information. I still have the
product literature from my installation
but no means to scan it.
Square D search back fed
but link should show 578 hits on Square
Ds web site for back fed or reverse fed
equipment. Some is Q/A but a lot is
product information. I still have the
product literature from my installation
but no means to scan it.
Square D search back fed
Butch(OH)
Well-known Member
You won't get any argument from me on that John. The utility stopped by when my guy was about done and they had a rather lively conversation (kind words for argument) about the earth grounding he had installed for my generator set which is not a portable unit. It a separate source. They both retired to their trucks and looked at code books for a few minutes, then conversed (RE argued) a bit more and then came to a compromise. One thing they didn't argue about was they both called it a back feed becaise of the way it feeds the main in my panel. I guess because my set feeds at the meter box and not at the house panel it changes what is the concern of the power company and what is not?? BUT what fo I know?? I am in this topic way over my head actually, LOL
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Isn’t that was a break before make transfer switch is ?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
So we don’t need codes or rules ?
How popular were generator transfer switches 60+ years ago ? You have a problem with grounded receptacles , GFCI, AFCI and hard wired smoke detectors ?
There were problems with the old wiring because they either did not know at the time, or they did not care or it was too expensive .
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Hopefully this works . May require a cut and paste into Brouser bar . https://www.lowes.ca/panel-boxes/square-d-60-amp-18-space-36-circuits-maximum-generator-panel-box_9936778.html?af=3632&cse=3632&&cm_mmc=shopping_google-_-g_111_1-_-1637321415-_-9936778&gclid=CjwKCAiAqOriBRAfEiwAEb9oXeitGAWt90sOluRKBwCp6vbif4WOK_jUtX9uuWFBw-bEIuaqPtCqvBoCaCIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
showcrop
Well-known Member
Yes, Butch, I got to the page no problem but the "back fed" terminology is the words of the people asking questions. I found just one where Square D references Back fed for back-up power in their answer where they say don't do it! it is dangerous. I found the pages of Q&A but nothing saying that a back-up system is called backfeeding I think that you are getting the two crossed-up.
"Basically, it needs to be a mechanical make before break device."
Shouldn't that be "Break before Make"?
"A switch with both types of contact ("n.o." and "n.c.") is called a changeover switch or double-throw switch. These may be "make-before-break" ("MBB" or shorting) which momentarily connects both circuits, or may be "break-before-make" ("BBM" or non-shorting) which interrupts one circuit before closing the other."
(WIKI)
I?m not sure which one of us your talking to in this discussion John but I completely agree. I?m just taking orders and helping with the manual work and getting a few lessons along the way. The guy I?m helping is a licensed electrical contractor and has been for almost 50 years. I have complete confidence he knows what he is doing even though I do not.
For sure, you' want to BREAK open the main breaker fed from the Utility BEFORE you MAKE the genset connection WELL DUH. In the picture you have to BREAK open the main BEFORE you are able to close the breaker to MAKE the genset connection !!!!!!!
Those slide lock outs are an easy n cheap method to use a genset to feed the panelboard and NOT backfeed the utility with the genset
NOTE since in this method you ARE NOT SWITCHING THE NEUTRAL the genset and utility Neutrals will be tied together which means the Genset should utilize A FLOATING NEUTRAL with the Equipment Grounding Conductor bonded to the gensets metal case/frame just as its bonded to other metal case/frames tools and appliances !!!!!!!!!!!
DO NOTTTTTTTTTTTT make and connect the genset BEFORE YOU BREAK OPEN THE UTILITY Well Duhhhhhh
Consult trained professional electricians and engineers and rely on the NEC panel of experts where life safety is concerned before risking your life on lay opinions !!!!!!!!!
John T Retired Electrical Power Distribution Design Engineer and rusty on the latest codes but believe this is still true
Those slide lock outs are an easy n cheap method to use a genset to feed the panelboard and NOT backfeed the utility with the genset
NOTE since in this method you ARE NOT SWITCHING THE NEUTRAL the genset and utility Neutrals will be tied together which means the Genset should utilize A FLOATING NEUTRAL with the Equipment Grounding Conductor bonded to the gensets metal case/frame just as its bonded to other metal case/frames tools and appliances !!!!!!!!!!!
DO NOTTTTTTTTTTTT make and connect the genset BEFORE YOU BREAK OPEN THE UTILITY Well Duhhhhhh
Consult trained professional electricians and engineers and rely on the NEC panel of experts where life safety is concerned before risking your life on lay opinions !!!!!!!!!
John T Retired Electrical Power Distribution Design Engineer and rusty on the latest codes but believe this is still true
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Yes break before make .
fixerupper
Well-known Member
Because I am sometimes absent minded this is the way I have my transfer switch set up. It was installed by the power company at my request when the power was buried in. It's a bigger setup than a homeowner would use but it's the principle of it that I'm trying to show. It's simple and effective. With this setup even Marilyn could switch it over to generator without training. Getting the generator started would be the problem for her. LOL Yes it cost me a bunch of bucks and going by the high reliability of our power source here it's a bad investment because it might not ever be used as long as I live here. But it's there just in case.
fixerupper
Well-known Member
Well I talked about being absent minded. Here's the picture.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Looks good .
We just had a room added on our house and the had to move the meter and where the service came in from overhead to underground and the put a new breaker box outside that powers the new room and the old panel inside that powers the rest of the house.
So, if I get me an interlock, move the two breakers on the left down and add my 30A 240V breaker for the generator where they were, I’ll be good, correct? Would it be a good idea to put a switch on the neutral to have a total disconnect from the power lines?
-Scott
So, if I get me an interlock, move the two breakers on the left down and add my 30A 240V breaker for the generator where they were, I’ll be good, correct? Would it be a good idea to put a switch on the neutral to have a total disconnect from the power lines?
-Scott
Big Papa,you and about everybody else that is only using a small portable Generator should look into the Unit that most all electric companies install on the meter base.It is cheap and works making every one happy,plus it is automatic when plugged into.I have all knife switches because of big units("5"of them).
That would be the Generlink......
http://www.generlink.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUjgN-yXrMg
We are currently in the midst of an ice storm that has already knocked out power around the region. We are on wait and see status to see if we go dark or get lucky.
So I'm still in the planning phase of what I will be doing if and when I get a generator. My meter is mounted on a Square D distribution panel, which itself has breakers in. This feeds the 200 amp service panel in the house, plus an additional 100 amp service panel in the horse barn. The house panel is full to the gills and even has a few doubles installed. The folks who built this went wild with the electric service. Living room alone has at least 15 different switches, plus nearly that many outlets. Would love to know what the electrician who wired it was thinking......for him it was either a wet dream or worst nightmare depending on his attitude.
Anyway, it finally occurred to me the best place to install a sliding lockout switch would be in the meter's panel box, since all juice flows from that, giving the most flexibility, plus is has open slots to use, and we have access to it from the outside to run the wiring.
So in the midst of this ice storm, I go out to take a look and find this......a panel encased in ice. In the event of an actual outage and I needed to hook up the generator, I'd have to find a way to melt the ice to get it open to flip the switches. If the power was out, I could probably pour warm water on it to melt the ice, but pouring water on a service panel doesn't sound like the smartest thing a person could do.
So I suspect the Generlink, if you can hook it up while encased in ice, would be a good fit for me.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
The panel closest to the utility service is supposed to bind the neautral to earth for reference . Outlying panels are supposed to float the neutrals to avoid neutral current on the ground system.
What we are talking about floating and bonded neutrals regarding transfer switches are inside the generator it’s self .
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