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Sad to see it go

N

nrowles

Member
My 94 year old great grandmother is in a nursing home at $11,000 a month so it's time to sell the farm. The story I got was my great grandfather worked day and night 7 days a week for a man that had numerous businesses and 1000+ acres. When the man passed away, instead of letting it to his kids he gave it to my grandfather for the years of hard labor. This was in the 70's. I've only ever remembered the 230 acres that remains. Over the years especially as they got older they sold chunks here and there and the 230 is all that is left. Grandma is out of cash and the rest of it has to go. No more Thanksgivings on the farm. No more deer hunting in the woods. No more no more.

If there would have been proper estate planning years ago this would not be happening. It could be left in the family. Something for you older gents to think about.
 
Talk to the place where she is staying. I know of a person this happened to years ago. The facility allowed her to
hold on to her property untill she died, and liquadate after. This allowed the nursing home to absorb the income
while she was still alive which allowed them to receive more money than if they just obsorbed only the principal
up front.
 
(quoted from post at 07:33:06 12/16/18) So why don?t you buy it? 11 grand a month seems
like mighty steep nursing home.
Click to expand...

I don't have a million dollars or a way to finance a million dollars. Just the 115 acres of woods appraised for $350,000 and that didn't include the farm ground, house, barn, etc. That's for the high and mighty to buy.
 
(quoted from post at 07:36:14 12/16/18) Talk to the place where she is staying. I know of a person this happened to years ago. The facility allowed her to
hold on to her property untill she died, and liquadate after. This allowed the nursing home to absorb the income
while she was still alive which allowed them to receive more money than if they just obsorbed only the principal
up front.
Click to expand...

I will make the family aware. I'm not working in the details with all of this.
 
There's a place that I've been renting for three generations now. It's been in their family for 155 years. The son of the woman I'm renting it from now is a realtor and sees a pile of money in a commission,so he's talked her in to letting him sell it. He sent me a letter in June telling me of his intentions and that I won't have it this coming year.

It's not just poor planning,it's greed that gets them sold off too.
 
Many of us have a similar situation in our lives. What was once a fairly affordable place is now
untouchable by the 2nd or 3rd generation. The 2nd generation grew up doing the work and is not
enoramoured by it. They are satisfied with getting a financial piece. 3rd generation would love to take
over but can almost never afford to and has the 2nd generation directly in the way. As a parent, it is
difficult to hand over the lion share of a valuable property to one child and cut the others out. And, the
aging and retirement facility industry knows how to empty peoples bank accounts out very quickly.
Estate planning can?t fix all these complications.
 
Bruce it is not in some places. $7-8000 a month is real. Anyway I doubt at 7 or 11000 would make any difference in the cost in the end.
 
RR in your case they see $350,000 for the parcel vrs. the $1500 a year you pay them. (change the numbers to fit but you get the picture) I have seen a lot of it in woodland/farmland.
 
"If there would have been proper estate planning years ago this would not be happening"

WISE WORDS Yet another reason to consult a trained competent professional estate planning attorney versus what you brother in law says lol

I've made several estate plans for clients AND NO TWO WERE THE SAME

NOTE Im NOT saying any one plan or no plan is good or bad Im NOT judging anyone's personal plan or choices. Im ONLY saying a good plan can sure help achieve a family goals whatever they may be whether or not someone else likes them TO EACH THEIR OWN

Best wishes

John T BSEE, JD Attorney at Law
 
I feel bad for you. You obviously have an interest. You know, everyone is different. Some are proactive in those matters and many, if not most, are not and either don't want to spend the money or trust anyone to help them. My wife and I have seen both sides now.

My 93 year old mother died this May but given her proactive planning back in the late 90's the farm was never in danger. I know you are trying to pass on lesson's learned nrowles, so let me pile on and encourage people to have a plan. Like I tell my neighbors, if you don't have a plan the government/establishment does, just for you.

So nrowles, are there others interested in keeping some part of the farm? If so maybe you could establish a partnership with shares and buy some or all of it. Each partner would own shares proportional to his/her contribution. Just a thought. As long as the farm hasn't been sold yet there might still be time. Talk to whoever is settling the estate and an estate planning lawyer.


The $11,000 for a nursing home is about what it would be around here if there are a lot of additional services needed and at age 94 how could it be otherwise. So don't let anyone question you regarding the cost. Every situation is different.

Oh, there is some other good advice below. My mother-in-law's house was not sold until well after the money had run out. The Nursing Home got their money later, once the house was sold.

Good luck.

Paul
 
You're pretty much on the money. The woman's husband died a few years ago,but not before he sold his share of a chain of lumber yards for a million dollars. It was her grandmother's place,not his. Now the money for the farm will end up in the estate for her son to inherit,after he gets his commission that he can spend now. I found out in June,but I was told that his uncles just found out recently. He might not survive to close the deal. To say they're not happy is as big an understatement as there ever was.
 
It is not uncommon for farmers to end up with only the land at the end of their life.

I feel for you, but she needs the cash, my great grandfathers farm was sold to the lowest bidder, due to my great aunt that was swooned by the bidder, I had outbid, just how it goes.
 
As far as the nursing home costs, it is very nice and she is well taken care of.

Getting people to come together and buy is not an option. Not many people I trust have the means/capability. As well with me, doing something like that would extend me pretty far. Might not have been too bad a couple months ago but you never know what will happen. My wife lost her job this week and this would have been a very stressful time if we had an additional mortgage to pay.

I knew this was coming for some time now and I bought a 1953 International Harvester R-112 truck from the farm a couple months ago to keep a memory. My only memory is seeing it parked in the corn crib but it is something from the farm. I will see if I can post a link to that thread I created.

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1372952&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
 
It's sad to hear about your grandmother.

Family traditions often change as they move down through the generations. Other hunting ground can be found or rented. The biggest change might be that grandmother won't be providing those for free anymore. Get together with some other family members and work out some way to replace them. A $Million plus is a lot for one person to pay just to keep your grandmothers farm. Odds are that if any of the family were really interested in keeping the farm, they would have approached your grandmother or other family members about a plan to buy it long before now.
 
Nursing home costs have gone nuts. And most states have laws regarding nursing home care and real property.

Lotta land here has gone on to others. Wife's one uncle the land was his retirement program. When he retired he sold off the cows and equipment at auction and used that to buy a home in town. Then he rented the homestead out as a rental property and the the cropland out to other farmers. Then he just started out selling off one piece after another. Now it's gone.

Few farmers from back then prepared for their kids to take over either. Considering that they were in their 40's when JR wanted to farm and also was sniffing around the girls the farm wasn't big enough to support 2 families. So if JR couldn't get the banker to front him the money to expand the farm JR had no other option than to get a job in town and forget the farm. 20 years later when dad was ready to retire that farm was his retirement program.

It's gotten to the point with nursing home costs, the ability of the state to seize bank accounts, assets and real property to pay for or offset the cost of long term nursing home care that people have got to have estate planning if they want to keep anything in the family.

Rick
 
Another plan would be for her heirs to take car of her,yea its a job and all but I guarantee she'd be happier at home.I'm doing that right now with my almost 95 year old mother.
 
Thanks for the response. You got your priorities right, you must plan/protect your own family financially and into retirement years. Take care. Paul
 
Well seems fair enough to me if the family won't take care of the elderly owner and the state has to pay for the care then why shouldn't the state be able to recoup the money?
 
Is it possible that years ago the family had decided that this is the best plan? If none of the next generation and none of the grandchildren wanted to buy the farm, would a different estate plan have changed the outcome for you?
 
Only problem is,if somebody in a family of several siblings says,"Ya,I'll take her in and take care of her until she dies,but the catch is,I get the farm when she's gone.",the rest will probably never speak to that person again.
 

I hear what you're saying, and can appreciate your loss at seeing the farm having to be sold.

However, having lived this kind of nightmare all my life I and my oldest brother took the initiative for the estate planning. We knew that at worst, the farm could be sold off on a whim, and at best it would be used to take care of my folks in their latest years so we found a way in bits and pieces to buy the farm from Dad over the years.

In parcels as small as 15 acres, we slowly ended up buying the land for a price at or just below fair market value. This started as soon as I got out of high school and went on most of my working years.

My point is, kids shouldn't sit back and expect the parents to plan their estate so they can hand it over to the kids, but plan to fund your parents estate by trading them cash for their golden years in exchange for the land you so desire.
 
You're right there believe me I've been thru it all,thankfully my parents knew who'd look out for them and who wouldn't in the family and did a Trust,wills and Power of Attorney
accordingly.But even at that I'd be real happy if some members of the family weren't speaking(LOL)Main thing for me is my mom is as happy and content as she can be considering her
physical and mental condition.
 
Estate planning for sure, a must do and the sooner the better. I was facing these costs and did incur one months private pay for my mother at a nursing rehabilitation facility, 420/day. She did not want to leave this place, but I did move her to independent living with a home health aid, both a lot more reasonable at $2700/month. 7 minutes from the house and well within her income.

I'm still working with a elder law atty. here in town to protect assets. The last 6 months have been nothing but h$ll with all of this and the full time job I have. I made a deal to obtain the farm I grew up on, then things let loose with my mother here at the house that is attached to the land, but in her name. House is paid for, but the taxes on both is a mortgage. Things pencil out, but I'm wary of getting into a hole financially, so I've got to play this hand with the utmost care. Being the only sibling makes it easier, though the entire ordeal with everything is something to reckon with. Things that should have been done years ago, are now just happening, hopefully things work out.

Very sad to see things going when there was another way if plans were put in place when they needed to be. Hopefully you'll cope with it. In my case, it's too soon, being in my 50's, in good health, I'd like to enjoy some retirement here, but ultimately I will have to make plans for when I cannot and I am ok with it. I'll have some fun selling off my things someday, and am ok knowing all the material things in this world don't amount to anything in the grand scheme of things.
 
nrowles: I hear what your saying about estate planning. The thing I see is the majority of farms/land/houses that do not get passed down, have a generation of family that does not want to put any "skin" in the game. They want the farm/land left to them with them not paying/working for this major asset. Then add in parents that selfishly want to hang on to total control into their senior years,70-80-90s. This makes it to where few farms/land/businesses get passed on to the next generation.

The numbers I have been seeing says it takes the income off of 400 acres to keep one person in a nursing home annually. Not many farms/estates large enough to do that. So the majority go on title 19/Medicare after they use up their assets.

The popular estate plan around here is Dad/Mom signing the farm/land over before they are in bad health. So them have few assets, on paper,then the state/taxpayers pay for their end of life care. The fellows on each side of me owned multiple farms and their families never paid a single cent for the nursing home/end of life care. They cheated the program and passed the cost on to everyone else.

If you want anything in life you have to work and plan for it. In the case of multi generation land/farms this is tough to get done. The parents have to be willing to talk about it when their children are young enough to do things to work their way into the land/farm. This is in their 40-50s. Most do not think about it until they are in their 60-70s and their kids are too old to really take on that much debt/work. This happened in my case. My Father could not and would not pay anything for the farm. He was in his late forties at the time. I was 28 years old with a wife and kids. My wife and I made it work. This was during the 1980s too. Drove junk cars/pickups, use old/junk equipment for years plus working like dogs but we got it done. We started planning for our estate when our kids where born. I am not joking. We where in our thirties. It worked. Now my kids are working out how they are going to do it with their kids. They are in their 30-40s. Having started early you have time to make things work for all involved. Very few if any can just "give" everyone of their kids a farm/land/house free and clear.
 
JD,



I do not know if the OP expected to be given the farm, or the opportunity to work for it, so will leave it at that.

I have had to earn all my things, and kind of irks me when people expect to put things in a trust to evade nursing home and other charges to leave things to the next generation, and let the taxpayers foot the bill for care.

I applaud you for earning your things.
 
See a lawyer experienced in elder care you may be able to get your mother on Medicaid without liquidating all of the assets. I did that for
my mother and saved a lot of money.
 
The fact is people put things in trust for many different assets and it makes the playing field lopsided for those trying to compete with those with a head start. There are many factors that push consolidation in many industries and this is one of them. If you view consolidation as a good thing then you should see no problem with letting the chips fall where they may when it comes to farm transition. Just don't complain as to very few extremely large farms and the nearest village running 40,50, or more percent unemployment with crime rampant. To this point we have been running ahead of the curve in terms of tech saving the day with factory workers running robots and "we'll build computers instead of typewriters" but the time could come where jobs disappear faster than the tech to reposition workers and there are people today that can only be programmed so far in terms of skills and no further. What do we do about the days when people can't be trained any further and McDonald's/Walmart is fully automated and more people have more time to get into more trouble? Technology is a great thing but it is not so great if humanity gets run over it like a possum gets flattened by an 18 wheeler.
 
Not trying to sound like a wise guy but what does "planning for our estate" exactly mean? No gifting over to the younger generation? No deeding over to the younger generation? No trust established to protect assets? I don't know your situation nor you personally but lets say your estate is worth 3 million dollars. The kids going to be able to buy you out or is it let the chips fall where they may? With the supply situation on commodities and increased competition world wide if we see a prolonged "return" to the 1980's where you are in survival mode financially does that mean your stuff is gone and will be out of the family?
 
.....I have had to earn all my things, and kind of irks me when people expect to put things in a trust to evade nursing home and other charges to leave things to the next generation, and let the taxpayers foot the bill for care.
Click to expand...

Amen!

One of the guys down the road from me did a snakey deal. Had the house and land into some kind of trust. Wife developed Alzheimers and when she had to go into care, he divorced her. Since all the assets were in the trust, she got virtually nothing and the costs for care for the rest of her days were borne by taxpayers.

I won't give that guy the time of day now.
 
At least the sale will care for your great
grandmother. What burns me is when people
lucky enough to inherit lots of ground that
could support them and their family for
years to come, sell out because they want
that money in their pocket now.
 
(quoted from post at 12:25:58 12/16/18) At least the sale will care for your great
grandmother. What burns me is when people
lucky enough to inherit lots of ground that
could support them and their family for
years to come, sell out because they want
that money in their pocket now.
Click to expand...

Sprint, It burns you that folks want to cash in what they own and take the cash to enjoy life?

How is that wrong?

I don't care how you got your ground, what you do with it should be a matter of personal choice and benefit you and yours.
 
Friend of mine did some novel "estate planning". His mother was in her 80's and he was afraid she would have to go to a nursing home, and her dairy farm (that son operated and would solely inherit) would have to be sold for her care. So he financed his daughter through nursing school, with the stipulation that when Grandma could no longer care for herself, daughter would move in with her and take care of her, and he would pay her the same monthly wage she had been making at her job. Mom lived to be 97, never spent a day in a nursing home, and died in her sleep after putting in a full day volunteering at her church.

Mom's self-described "darkest day" was in her early '90's when she became too feeble to bring coal in from the shed outside for her Stoker-matic coal stove. She still took out the klinkers, though. Great ol' gal- loved to play cards and have fun. RIP Violet.
 
Coshoo, if I read your example correctly it sounds like the nursing student had her schooling paid but agreed to put her life on hold until the old lady died. And until that happened, she was tied down to looking after her Gramma and not getting any other nursing experience to put her training to use. You didn't mention how long this went on for but had the grandmother lived past 100, that might have been a tough contract to live up to for the young lady. Certainly an interesting take on dealing with an estate.
 
JD, you hit the nail right on the head! I bought the family farm from my Father when he was in his mid 60s, and I was in my late 30s. If people want to keep it in family, they have to man up and deal with it sooner than later. I too get ------ at people who work the system and leave the bill on the rest of us. My wife's older brothers did that, but I'm not going to get started with that discussion, my comment would get deleted! I will say that my wife and sister received nothing, and older brothers got it all.
 
I wasn’t expecting to get anything from the farm either property or money. All I was saying is that I’m sad to see it go. The truck I referenced earlier I paid market value for.

My grandmother can’t even walk or take a dump on her own. Her children in their 70’s are in no condition to be taking care of her.
 
A trust does not mean it is held for the benefit of one person or depending on the state's laws any human being. If the money is there for property taxes and insurance
then in theory a trust could out live any living people in the family. All it requires is money saved or a revenue generator. I could care less about whether you want it for
yourself or not. It seems to me even before this thread came along that a trust either should be or not be a vehicle to preserve assets. But the reality is that since
setting up and executing trusts is good business for lawyers and many lawyers are politicians trusts are not going away. So at that point is a person a fool for not using
one when a person's presumed competition in a business such as farming is using to gain a huge advantage as they are not paying thousands or millions of dollars to
gain an asset?
 
JD you are about right on the 400 acres, depending on what the cash rent, nursing home bill and property taxes are. Dad is in a nursing home, in fact I am sitting beside him right now. His bill is a twitch under $7000 per month. He does not have nursing home insurance. One reason he does not have the insurance is he does not like insurance companies. Second reason he does not have long term care is he can pay the bill as long as I keep paying him rent. And I don't plan on quitting anytime soon. His situation is not common at all though. In this nursing home I would guess 70% of the residents are on gvt assistance or long term care is helping with the bill. Marilyn and I have long term care policies that will pay for as long as we need it if the time comes. I nickname the premiums as being a forced nursing home savings account.
 
Tho I agree it must be sad to see it go, I admire your family for wanting to pay their own way. They worked hard to build wealth during their working years and now they are using it
as needed in the end. Old neighbor of mine told me if he spends his last dime on the day he dies then that was just right. I'm a little confused why your Great Grandfather was
gifted such a huge value. Did he not get a salary when working?
 

My grandmother’s care facility, a very nice one, was $5k per month 20 years ago. It was basically a studio apartment, she could function ok, but didn’t know what day it was or who she was talking too.
 
nr ...... your Gramma can't take a dump (?) .... like go to the bathroom on her own? Holy smokes, a bit of a crude way to refer to it when
it's your Gramma I think.
 
Similar situation up the road from here. Guys wife while still in
their 30?s develops MS. He gives her the boot then when her
sisters can no longer take care of her she ended up in a
government run home. Him and my ex hooked up while we
were still married and now he?s living off her nursing salery
and he just putters around home and drinks. Glad my parents
still owned the farm at the time because they were coming
after that too.
 
I know what you mean on the "sad to see it go"... hard to let go of our childhood haunts and the memories that go with them.

When my parents sold the farm I grew up on my entire childhood (about 23 years ago) - I was a grown, married woman with kids... cried like a little girl anyway. :(
 
I think I get the gist of the OP, as the grandson living on the family farm, my cousins all are glad to come by for the family reunion, some even help set up or take down that day, none ever want to do any of the work the other 364 days.

Dad always wanted to live here, his parents lived so long he never got the chance. He saw it was better for me and my young family to renovate and move in, a wise move considering the cancer that was soon to attack. Some days I really feel guilty about that.

I'm not sure how to feel about none go my kids wanting to be here, often I say they'll carry me out, once in a while I think this will be my retirement fund.
 
What some of you are missing is that some of these older people won't turn the land over. Of they want the kids to pay cash up front. Seen several local farms go that way. Even when the banker is telling dad "JR can't mortgage the farm to pay you and keep farming, debt load is too much". But dad wants the money anyway. Then he's mad at JR for not buying him out. One guy here about blew a gasket over it. But he wanted full market for the farm, wanted JR to buy all the equipment at dealer prices and for him to pay top dollar for the livestock. I still don't think he's talking to his son and it's been 20 years.

My own BIL is going through this now. My sister really had to twist his arm to get him to go to an estate planner. He got told that if he wants the one son to farm and this not to turn into a family mess he needs to start signing the farm over now. BIL wanted it set up so each of the kids got a fair share. Kids that haven't had anything to do with the farm in years. Planner told him you do that and the ones share won't be enough for him to farm.

Rick
 
After reading all these responses, I think the wisest move to make is for everyone to sell the farm and buy a nursing home. $$$$$$$$$$$
 
No, she could (and did) get a regular nursing job, and she never had to leave that job and move in with Grandma. The agreement was that she would quit her job and move in if Grandma ever needed nursing-home-type care, and she never did.
 
Oh OK, that worked out fine then but I guess the basic part of my question still applies. Did you ever think though that her dad was sort of holding her hostage (maybe that's an exaggeration) a bit on the deal? I think that most parents pay for their kids college education (or as much as they are able to) without any strings attached. Anyways, and end to an interesting story.
 
I have told my wife to not let me live in a nursing home. I believe she can ask the Lord to take me and verbally release me. We don't
realize we can release our loved ones from pain and loneliness when they are old and unable to care for themselves. Many times we want to
selfishly hang onto someone who would prefer to be released from the prison they find themselves in. My father in law lived with us from
the time he was 93 to 100. 100 was his goal and the next day went into the hospital and died 2 months later. We honored his wishes even
though it was difficult at times.

Bottom line is there are no easy answers and each has to handle it the best they can.
 
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