oil in the radiator

T L

Member
I purchased an 8n a few weeks ago and the owner said it ran good but smoked a little. I started to remove the engine to rebuild it but when I drained the antifreeze a lot of oil came out after a while. There is not any antifreeze in the oil and the oil level is at full. What should I look for as to the cause of the oil getting into antifreeze?
 
Hi:
The 9N-2N-8N engines are flat-heads with no oil passages in the head gasket or head. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. If not correct, someone will post reply soon!!

Dennis M. in W. Tenn.
 
It is likely not oil. Probably combustion residue from a bad head gasket.
Think about it: It's a flat head engine so there is no oil in that engine above the lifters and surely none in the head like an OHV engine has.
Something else to think about:
If you go the typical overhaul/restore on that tractor, buy a tire or two, plus paint it like so many get you'll soon have $3-4+ Grand MORE into a tractor that has no features like more gears, live hydraulics, live PTO, power steering, etc, etc.
And it will be worth a couple when you're done.
Better to take that money and put it into a Ford 600/800/2000/3000/4000 which likely WILL have those features and more horsepower to boot.
You will be Way ahead in the long run.
 
I called that combustion residue burnt oil from oil working its way past the rings. Fought that for years on a 2 N before finding out it was not from fresh oil and then replaced the headf gasket. Lasted for years. Now I have anti freeze getting in crankcase and think it is getting into a cyliner and then going past the rings. Need to replace the gasket but it is more job than I can handl any more. Think I will have help in Jan to do it.
 
About 35 yrs ago, I rebuilt my Dad's 8n for that problem.As i recall I believed it to be the head gasket-but like the others said,there aren't any oil passages there.Mark.
 
This sounds like the problem. When it warms up a little I plan on rebuilding it. I am retired and enjoy working on these tractors.
 
I had an *N with the same problem. I was also told combustion by product. Cracked block!
 
Are you certain it was oil?

Often people dump Bars leak or other products into the rad to address a leak and the gooey stuff that comes out at the end of draining will resemble oil.

If you have not yet taken the engine apart it is not difficult to pressurize the cooling system and oil pressure circuit to help determine if or where the problem is.
 
Where was the block cracked? I would really like to look at the block but a crack could be someplace you can't see.
 
The substance is very thick and slippery to the feel. How can you test the oil passages for a leak?
 
(quoted from post at 14:34:15 12/06/18) The substance is very thick and slippery to the feel. How can you test the oil passages for a leak?

What you described does sound a lot like the residue from Bars leak.

How much of this substance do you estimate came out of the system?

When oil and coolant are both present in a rad the rad acts like a mini refinery the heat causes the oil to separate from the hot coolant and it floats to the top as opposed to emulsifying and forming the white milky goo you get when a small amount of water contaminates the oil like in a gearbox for example.

The hot water based coolant will actually wash the solids out of the oil leaving you a relatively clean sample, somewhat clean engine oil should not be any thicker than what is in the engine.

You can hold a teaspoon with some of the substance over a propane torch, any water will quickly boil away leaving you with a sample to identify.

If the majority of the sample rapidly steams away you will know it was not oil.

For testing the oil passages;

You can hook up a pump to the fitting the oil pressure line attaches to, solvent being thinner than oil works very good for this.

You could add a colorant to the solvent (a spoonful of white oil base paint works well).

A pressurized solvent sprayer, a fuel injector flush canister that you can pressurize with shop air, even a solvent bath pump will work.

Could probably even rig up a few fittings and use a grease gun as a pump.
 
(quoted from post at 20:44:08 12/06/18)
I have used bars leak by the gallons I have never seen it leave a mess in the cooling system like has been reported...

If he wants to get down and dirty he can for sure find the root cause I get paid well to do just that...

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1191074&highlight=black


https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1365713&highlight=combustion

The liquid and pellet version of Bars leaks has a high petroleum content and requires adequate heat and circulation to completely dissolve and mix in the pellets.

Having had a repair shop at an airport I worked on a lot of vehicles that typically would be started, used for 5 minutes or less then shut off. Tow tug's, forklifts, start generators etc.

Quite common to get a vehicle in the shop to repair a coolant leak where Bars leaks had been dumped into the rad.

Everyone hoping for a cheap fix, if one bottle does not work then lets try adding a few more.

Without adequate heat and circulation to dissolve the pellets what ends up in the drain pan looks very much like what the original poster described.

Dump it in, don't read the bottle, don't run the engine up to temperature then wonder why it did not work and send it to the shop for repairs.

Personally I try to rule out everything I can when diagnosing a problem.
It helps avoid those one in a hundred chance things that come back to bite you later.

So in my opinion;

Could it be Bars leaks? Yes

Could it be combustion residue? Yes

Could it have a flaw or crack in the block? Yes

Could someone have accidentally dumped something from the wrong jug into the rad? Yes

Could it be 50+ years of various substances mixed together? Yes

Myself I would start with flushing the cooling system real good.
Liquid dish soap works good to get oil out of the hidden places in a cooling system then run it good to determine if there is a problem.

If there is still a problem then begin testing.

If the engine can not be run you are limited to;

Pressure tests
Visual inspections
Fluid analysis
Magnaflux testing

Or cross your fingers have it rebuilt and hope it does not bite you.
 

If it were Bars leak it would be EZ to confirm if it were combustion by products it would be EZ to confirm it would be the nasty sticky tacky black as tar stuff you have ever dipped your finger in..

The N head itself is an issue it traps the mess its a bowl upside down I doubt you would ever in your life just flush contamination away...

Its a pattern failure I would wager 99.9% of flatheads with this issue would be combustion by products... If you want to play pump the cylinders up to 100 PSI.

Torquing the cylinder head would resolve the issue I just don't know for how long it would last...

No mater how you go about getting the contamination out its not going to be a fun successful job the first go round it takes dedication and a good supply of HOT water...
 
There is about a pint I think of this substance and it floats on top of the antifreeze. I put some on a spoon and heated it and the antifreeze evaporated and a what looks and feels like oil was left. I may try to do the oil passage test if I can get the right set up. What do you look for after you spray the thinner into the oil passage, the color in the radiator?
 
(quoted from post at 13:20:04 12/07/18) There is about a pint I think of this substance and it floats on top of the antifreeze. I put some on a spoon and heated it and the antifreeze evaporated and a what looks and feels like oil was left. I may try to do the oil passage test if I can get the right set up. What do you look for after you spray the thinner into the oil passage, the color in the radiator?

So what are you trying to accomplish here?

You start out by stating "it ran good, but smoked a little".

Is a 'little smoke" an impediment to what you want to do with the tractor, and how much $$$ are you willing to toss at it?

A little oil in the coolant (if that's what it REALLY is) hurts NOTHING, of course antifreeze "in the basement" is another matter.

Another thing... how long since the coolant has been dumped, the system thoroughly flushed, and new coolant installed... if a few months, you've probably got a problem, if 10 or 15 years, maybe not so much.

If you want to thoroughly and correctly "overhaul" it, and make it "as new" you can easily toss more $$$ at it than the tractor is worth.

On the other hand, as a long-time denizen here, I have read MANY sad stories of these poor machines ending up FAR worse after an botched or low cost attempt to make things better.

You MAY have a head gasket that is slightly leaking combustion products into the cooling system, If I suspected that I would do a "warm re-torque" of the head fasteners before trying anything else.

The oil gallery is below the waterjacket, and it would take a really unique casting defect or crack to create a passageway from the oil gallery to the waterjacket, but it has been RUMORED on there that it can happen, don't ever recall a post on here definitely confining that someone had found this "in the wild", but anything is possible.

You state the amount of "oil" was about a pint. Once again, how long since a flush and coolant change?

If YEARS, and quite a few hours of use, how small would a leak or crack between the oil gallery and the waterjacket have to be to limit the amount leaked to "about a pint", would be long shot to track down a leak that small, it would seem.

I would torque down the head, flush and refill the cooling system, and run it and WORK it and put some hours on it, then check things out and reevaluate what I wanted to next.

But, for the old tractor's sake IMHO, don't just tear into it, throw a few parts at it, and expect it to be better.

But if you have the desire, the experience/knowhow, the equipment to R+R the sleeves, the $$$ and know of a good machine shop to boil the block, thoroughly check it for cracks, check the linebore, check and recondition the rods and the oilpump, grind the valves, you will wind up with a really NICE $2000 engine.
 
(quoted from post at 09:10:37 12/06/18) I had an *N with the same problem. I was also told combustion by product. Cracked block!

"I had an *N with the same problem. I was also told combustion by product. Cracked block!"

Pitch, please elaborate on this... did your block have the rare and elusive "internal crack", or a crack at the "deck" causing a combustion products leak?
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top