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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Fuel costs for farming operations?

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oldtanker

10-11-2018 17:35:27




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According to the federal government bio diesel adds about 1.30 to the cost of a gallon of diesel. Evidence points to the EPA backing BIO not because it's good for the environment but because it makes people think twice about buying a diesel and they would like to get rid of diesel altogether. So how do you feel about the extra 1.30 or so per gallon in those diesel tractors? Hows that working with your bottom line?

Rick

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oldtanker

10-12-2018 14:58:27




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
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Paul, what I don't trust is the organization that put that chart out. Our government has lied to us on so many issues, mostly trying to get another vote, that i trust nothing they say or publish any longer. And the US Department of Energy is the one who put that out. You know, the same people who have been telling us who great wind and solar power is? Right now it makes up a whopping 10% of energy used daily. And after doing a lot of reading IMO at this time wind and solar are an expensive joke.

Were I got the $1.30 from I can't find again. It was in a news report from a major source but that news source no longer has that story up. Don't know why. Could be the lib side did not want that info out. Could be the writer didn't fact check what they were told. Isn't the first time that has happened.

We have an ethanol plant near us. I know that it's come close to shutting down/has shut down and the only thing keeping it going right now is cheap corn. Prices go back up they may start looking for a buyer again. They were trying to see if someone wanted to make real booze there.

Rick

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Bret4207

10-12-2018 14:50:40




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
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Yup, but it comes from all sides. The pro pure oil guys are going to push their agenda, the pro bio guys push theirs and the gov't pushes it's own. Who do you believe? Do you support big oil that's been making a darn good profit for decades? Do you support the pro-bio industry that wants a piece of big oil pie? Or do you support the gov't that picks winners and losers depening on the particular depts agenda and who sent them the most campaign money? Doens't really matter to us little peons. We're going to foot the bill no matter what.

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IanC

10-12-2018 09:26:05




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
To quote Mark Twain, "lies, damn lies, and statistics".



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VicS

10-12-2018 09:15:03




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
If I call and order diesel, I will get b20. Same if I order gas. I will get gasohol. 10% alcohol. E85 is 40 cents cheaper. And octain is 105. Instead of 87. If blends are selling cheaper, doesn't it stand to reason my dealer is buying them cheaper.



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oldtanker

10-12-2018 09:00:39




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
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Paul what I was reading had nothing to do with what the average price is. It's regarding what they are claiming is the average added cost is. In other words diesel according to that chart subtract about 1.30 from the average cost. So as an example B20 at 3.06 would be 1.76.

How nice of you to post that chart......from a government agency. So I really don't trust that as correct data. The government has a very poor record as far as publishing the truth.

Another government agency released a report that claimed that "many children died in the late 50's and 60's due to diesel particulate matter". The EPA did that right before they forced in the tier IV standards. They don't have even one autopsy report to back that claim up, not one! Plus it ignores the fact that almost all school buses back then were gas as were most lite and medium duty trucks. Heck Ford GM and Dodge were building gas powered semi tractors up into the 70's. Course most were day cabs. I operated both a Ford and GM tandem axle dump trucks made in the late 60's and early 70's that were gas. Even farm tractors like the 806 and 4020 were available in gas or diesel. About the only market where diesel was king back then was in construction. So just where did all this diesel particulate matter come from? With this info not only put out by the EPA but the EPA actually testified in front of congress about this........and you expect someone to trust ANYTHING the government puts out?
Rick

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paul

10-12-2018 11:37:10




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-12-2018 09:00:39  
Yea I know Tank. I guess my chart came from a govt site that was just fuel data, they werenít pushing an agenda. I donít know how to do any more than that, if we donít trust data (and I do hear you on the overload of agenda driven data!) then we really canít even have a conversation. Because you will supply infor from Texas and Oklahoma that Iím going to have troubles believing.

Looking up that chart, I passed over a whole lot of industry data sites, I know that wouldnít fly, heck Iíd suspect them too. I found a Berkeley (typically anti-Ag) study that thought biodiesel was marginally good and actually showed ethanol is far cheaper than gasoline, but it went on and on and on in dull and difficult to figure charts and points, so I didnít put that up.

I live in amongst quite a few ethanol plants, and we have mighty cheap corn here. The basis is always bad. Our corn is a lot cheaper than corn in Texas or Virginia or Illinois. So making ethanol here is kinda cheap. The alternative is shipping the corn 1/2 way across the country. So itís really cheap to use it here.

I live with a couple of soybean squeezing plants near me. Soybeans also are pretty cheap, we have a lot of bad basis, beans are a buck cheaper than you hear on the radio CBOT. Nobody wants to buy a whole soybean around here. They are worthless. A few places want some oil, but most it needs to get shipped far away. What people around here want is the soybean meal for feed. So we get a lot of soy oil sitting around in giant tanker farms, and what to do with it? Costs money to ship it away. Makes it darn cheap to process it into diesel fuel blend.

And really, thatís all I know. We raise a product here, we process it here,, and we use it here. Itís a pretty cheap process. With pretty cheap grains, the end product is pretty cheap.

I donít know where you get your $1.30 from, but if you wonít believe a simple chart, and I should believe your $1.30..... well, yea ok. We can all read a whole lot of Ďfactsí on Facebook, of course that makes you right. :) you betcha.

You have a good day. We will probably disagree on this again some day.

Paul

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LonM

10-12-2018 14:27:23




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to paul, 10-12-2018 11:37:10  
Very good post Paul.

Lon



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NEKS

10-12-2018 07:06:21




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
With Biodiesel and ethanol, corn was never going to go below five dollars. Now I am looking at the hay ground across the fence and the hedge row that's in the way. Guess I am going to burn more diesel cleaning it up to farm. I need more bushels.



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buickanddeere

10-12-2018 05:54:06




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
got my LP for 67 cents a litre plus 13% GST.



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oldtanker

10-11-2018 21:46:05




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
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Paul, no what I read is that a bio blend cost 1.30 a gallon more at 5 dollar beans today. They piece claimed that it was at todays prices on 10%. They also claim that BIO is right now today costing the American population 5.3 billion dollars a year in extra costs mostly just from transportation costs. That includes an alleged 10% or so reduction in efficiency. I don't know if that's actually the case, just what I was reading.

I've also read reports from the EPA that one of the reasons they have not pushed for higher that 10% in ethanol blends is that anything over 10% will lead to early engine failure. And other than reports I have no physical proof.

Rick

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Texasmark1

10-12-2018 04:24:29




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 21:46:05  
"I've also read reports from the EPA that one of the reasons they have not pushed for higher that 10% in ethanol blends is that anything over 10% will lead to early engine failure. And other than reports I have no physical proof."

Proof? Just whip out your owner's manual for anything gasoline besides your car or truck that's flex-fuel capable and you will see the proof. They don't put the warning in there just to be flapping their jaws. (Opinion)

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paul

10-12-2018 02:28:58




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 21:46:05  

I guess we can read all kinds of things on the internet.

Reality in 2018 charts says a 2-20% biodiesel blend is cheaper than straight diesel. Pure biodiesel is a little bit more than straight diesel.

Probably has to do with the lubricity diesel needs now that sulfur has need stripped out. Need to add something, soybean oil happens to work well, if no bio is used, you need to add something else thatís kinda expensive.

Anyhow, even pure soy diesel is only 31 cents more than diesel. Blends appear to be lower cost than diesel.

No where does your $1.30 come into play?

But Iím sure we can read it someplace. :)

Paul

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part time pete

10-11-2018 20:06:41




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
We don't have much biodiesel around here, but I'll agree, it seems that one of the prime directives of the EPA is to get rid of diesel along with coal
Pete



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SVcummins

10-11-2018 18:53:50




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
No bio diesel here I did buy some one time on Trip and it was about 20 cents more a gallon



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oldtanker

10-11-2018 18:03:54




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
From the US Department of Energy. Look it up.

Also check out the reports from Harvard and MIT.

According to them the cost of BIO at 5 dollar beans including the loss of mileage makes a bio blend cost about 1.30 or more a gallon more than straight diesel.

Sorry I don't believe on thing the EPA has to say about this. I stopped believing the EPA about 15 years ago I'm sad to say.

Rick

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LonM

10-11-2018 18:57:41




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 18:03:54  
Using May 2017 data from www.biofuelsdigest.com, the production cost of biodiesel at that point in time was $2.76 per gallon. I will not argue that biodiesel is cheap, as it costs more to produce than what it costs to obtain and refine conventional fossil fuels into diesel fuel, but I still cannot see how it can add an extra $1.30 to the cost of a gallon of conventional diesel fuel.

If one was to burn straight biodiesel, then that certainly makes it more expensive than fossil fuel.

None of this is taking into account renewable fuel credits.

I read one Harvard study, done in 2014, that stated corn-based ethanol cost $0.78/gallon to produce, and cellulosic biofuels cost $1.46/gallon to produce, with no cost figure for biodiesel.

The US Dept of Energy had a chart showing the average difference in price nationwide for fuels. It's July 1-July 30, 2018 figures show Diesel fuel at $3.24/gal, B20 Biodiesel at $3.06/gal, and B99-B100 Biodiesel at $3.55/gal. Granted, the "Average retail fuel prices in the US" chart from April 2000-July 2018 showed times when biodiesel was significantly higher in price than conventional diesel fuel, and it also shows that B99-B100 biodiesel does cost a good 30-40 cents a gallon higher than straight diesel. However, B20 biodiesel follows conventional diesel fuel very closely in price, with the two often within 5-10 cents/gallon of each other.

Again, I would like to see the specific report you are citing.

Lon

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paul

10-11-2018 18:56:54




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 18:03:54  
Are you saying a gallon of bio-grade soybean oil costs $1.30 more per gallon, so a B10 blend by your numbers costs 13 cents more.

Or are you saying a blend of biodiesel costs $1.30 more than a gallon of straight diesel?

Iím gonna try to understand you here, and not shoot the messenger.

Could I ask when that study was made, as well? If they are referencing $5 beans, that would be the 1990s maybe? Economics have changed a lot since then, which could tilt things one way or the other quite a bit.

For some time, bio blends were indeed expensive so Iím really really gonna try to go through with you, and not opposed right off the bat.

Just want to be sure where you are coming from.

Paul

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LonM

10-11-2018 17:46:38




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 Re: Fuel costs for farming operations? in reply to oldtanker, 10-11-2018 17:35:27  
May we see some evidence of that $1.30 figure?

I am fairly certain a B2 or B10 blend would not add anywhere near that much cost to a gallon of fuel.

Lon



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