What is Didtillate as a fuel

37chief · Sep 21, 2018

My Allis Chalmers Manual has a section using Distillate as a fuel. From what I read it is like diesel fuel. In order to run on Distillate, there is a part of the ex manifold that has to be reversed diverting the exhaust probably making the inlet fuel hotter. The tractor has a small tank for gasoline, the main tank for Distillate. Start up on gas warm up, then open the Distillate valve on the main tank. Looks like it will run on Distillate, or diesel. Any one know about using Distillate? Stan

bumblebee · Sep 21, 2018

Sounds like you know quite a bit about it. My Dad used the term distillate quite often because he had tractors that used it. If you had to crank the engine to start it I think you had to run the engine on gas for a short while before you shut it off, might be a good idea to do the same if you had electric start.

kcm.MN · Sep 21, 2018

The distillate mentioned here is, if I understand correctly, fuel oil.

David G · Sep 21, 2018

Distillate is more like kerosene than diesel.

Steve@Advance · Sep 21, 2018

From what I understand, the term "distillate" refers to all petroleum products because all petroleum products are a result of distilling crude oil.

The fuel they are referring to would be "middle" distillates. They are lighter than lubricating oils, but heavier than gasoline, in the family of kerosene, diesel, jet fuel, and mineral spirits.

Evidently there was a time when some of these fuels were more plentiful or economical than gasoline.

I've never run anything on them, but hear it is troublesome. The fuel needs to be run very hot in order to vaporize enough to run with a spark ignition system.

old · Sep 21, 2018

Back in the day distillate was fuel oil which was commonly used to heat homes. It was cheap and a by product of making gas and diesel. A tractor that run on it had a system that heated the intake manifold a bit hotter and used a lower compression. My 1935 JD-B is one of those tractors and it runs real well on a mix of 50/50 gas and diesel

37chief · Sep 21, 2018

All I know, is what I have read about it. I've never tried it, even though one of my tractors has the extra small tank. I have enough trouble with just plain gasoline. Stan

CenTex Farmall · Sep 21, 2018

Before catalytic cracking became widespread they heated and distilled crude to get the different fractions: gasoline, kerosene, diesel etc. The type of crude made a significant difference as to the percentages yielded. A barrel of oil would yield "X" amount of several fractions. My understanding is that distillate fuels were kind of a leftover and thus sold at a low price. Too heavy to vaporize for starting, they worked by being vaporized by specially designed "Hot" manifolds and run while the engine was thoroughly warmed up. Lower compression ratios had to be used to prevent spark knock. Distillate did have more BTU than gasoline.

During WW2 catalytic cracking became widespread so we could turn a whole barrel of crude into gasoline. Refineries had more precise control over what came out and that resulted in fewer orphaned products. During the 50's distillate became less popular and faded from use.

I've heard of diesel being tried in tractors that had all the distillate equipment intact: Hot manifold, distillate tuned carb and radiator shutters. Kerosene or jet fuel would probably be a better try due to being a bit lighter than diesel. Of course kerosene has gotten stupid expensive. Jet fuel is not any better unless you can find some they need to get rid of such as has been de-fueled for maintenance or other reasons.

I've wanted to try jet fuel in an H or an M farmall but haven't gotten to it. Still haven't found radiator shutters for an M that were remotely usable. I have all the components for an H but will have to find one with the low compression pistons or build one just for it. ($$$)
I have several Farmalls that were distillate tractors when brand new but over time they were upgraded to higher compression pistons and/or gasoline head to be more efficient on gasoline. The manifolds lived a hard life with all that heat and were nearly all replaced with gasoline manifolds.

BushogPapa · Sep 22, 2018

How did "Coal Oil" compare to "Distillate"..??

Thanks...I believe that is what the oil-well pump engines run on..maybe straight from the well..??

SVcummins · Sep 22, 2018

Do you have any pictures of that b ? Is it on steel

richardinnz · Sep 22, 2018

It is (was) a low cost tractor fuel, like Kerosene. Also known as Vaporising Oil-V.O. in the U.K. (or Tractor vaporising oil- TVO) and Power Kerosene in Australia/ New Zealand My Farmall 'H' is a V.O. or Distillate tractor, I just use JET A1 (Avtur) Our supplies of V.O. stopped in about 1976/7 ish. The last V.O tractors were sold in the UK in the mid 1950's. The Fordson Major and David Brown Cropmaster Diesel killed those old spark ignition engines off in the UK. If you have a Distillate tractor and can't get JET A1. Mix 4 gallons Kerosene, 1 gallon petrol and add a pint of Diesel, it is somewhere near right and the tractor will go on it o.k. You must run the tractor at just below boiling point and keep the manifold shield in place. Do not stop the engine while running on it, turn back to petrol, or just shut the fuel off or it will be a sod to start again. The tractor will not perform right on straight Kero, and they tend to run hot on straight petrol.

Geo-TH,In · Sep 22, 2018

My brother had a 1936 JD D. It had two tanks. Start it on gas then switch it over to Diesel. I think, not 100%, it may have used hot water from radiator somehow. Brother used tractor back in the 50-60's on same diesel we use in other tractors.

randy hall · Sep 22, 2018

OK one more time. In a farmall H or M manual it states that the high compression engine used 70 octane gasoline, the lower compression distillate engine used 36 octane fuel and the lowest compression engine used kerosene which says 0 octane. Not to hard to figure out that distillate is in the middle between gasoline and kerosene so if you wanted to make your own use half gas and half kerosene.

Crazy Horse · Sep 22, 2018

Randy ..... your "OK, one more time" phrase reminds me of my high school physics teacher but he wasn't Mr. Hall. Since you seem to be one of the enlightened on this subject, can I ask a further question without being reprimanded and put in my place?

old · Sep 22, 2018

We tried straight diesel one time and found it did run on it but did not run well. We then tried a 50/50 mix and it run well and had what seemed like more power then on gas alone

randy hall · Sep 22, 2018

sure why not.

old · Sep 22, 2018

In the past I have posted pictures so there should be some in the archives. With this windows 10 computer and it being super slow I cannot post picture any more unless I want to sit here for 30 minutes waiting on them to down load. Yes it is on original steel wheels the same ones that where on it when new. I also have the original op/owners manual that came with it when new. If the engine has ever ben rebuilt it would have been done back in the 40 or 50s by my grand father. There have been 5 generation of my family on it. I play on it as a kid and so have my grand kids

Crazy Horse · Sep 22, 2018

George ...... would a '36 D run on diesel I wonder? Perhaps he was switching it over to distillate (or that's what was supposed to be in the main or big tank). JD's model R was their first real diesel offering I believe, somewhat later than 1936. And they did have their version of "water injection" ..... here's a bit of info from some web surfing .....

But kerosene has its drawbacks. Mainly, it does not vaporize as readily as gasoline, and it has a much lower octane content. That usually meant intake air and the intake manifold had to be heated to improve vaporization, the combustion chamber had to be carefully designed and kept clean to prevent knock, and for some engines (Rumely OilPull and the early John Deere D, for instance) water was injected into the cylinders to moderate combustion so as to further prevent combustion knock. These engines do not ?burn? water, as some people think. The addition of water merely moderates the combustion rate to reduce knock and prevent engine damage. The trade-off, though, is that water injection reduces overall engine efficiency.

Crazy Horse · Sep 22, 2018

OK, I'll think of one and get back to you. In the meantime, stand by !!!

Geo-TH,In · Sep 22, 2018

It's been a long time ago, I was just a kid. But I think once the JD D got warmed up, it ran on the same diesel my Dad's Farmall MD and Ford 6000 ran on.

Not totally sure, but I think it used water from radiator.

I could ask my brother, but his memory isn't hitting on all the spark plugs. Not the sharpest tool in the tool shed because of lack of O2 when sleeping.

Bob · Sep 22, 2018

(quoted from post at 13:50:09 09/22/18) It's been a long time ago, I was just a kid. But I think once the JD D got warmed up, it ran on the same diesel my Dad's Farmall MD and Ford 6000 ran on.

Not totally sure, but I think it used water from radiator.

I could ask my brother, but his memory isn't hitting on all the spark plugs. Not the sharpest tool in the tool shed because of lack of O2 when sleeping.

George, NOT sure about the burning actual diesel fuel (vs. "distillate"), but you are CORRECT about the radiator water part.

The D's used a brass shutoff valve/check valve unit to admit water to the carburetor throttle bore, basically a crude form of water injection.

Geo-TH,In · Sep 22, 2018

Old,
Tractor data shows JD D using kerosene.
Isn't Kerosene same as #1 diesel?
#1 diesel was preferred heating oil in extremely cold climates when the oil tank was outside. #2 diesel would jell up if temps got too cold.
Some people would put tanks in basement so they could burn cheaper #2.
JD D

old · Sep 22, 2018

I think Kerosene and #2 diesel are a bit different. The JD B I have is what is called an all fuel meaning one can almost run it on any thing that will burn. I have not tried it but been told you could run them on a mix of veggie oil and gas

Crazy Horse · Sep 22, 2018

Bob ..... not sure how much water is used up when "injected" into those engines, but a guy would have to watch the radiator
level for sure if it were coming from the rad. My friend spent the last six months working on an Oil Pull Rumley (the current
owner uses kerosene for fuel and it's PRICEY. Rumleys have water injection but theose use a separate water tank for that. Of
course, their coolant is oil (not water).

Question .... is the water injected into the carburetor or directly into the cylinder head or combustion chamber maybe? One
thing that is interesting is that some people believe the water is "burned off" (like a fuel) or separated into hydrogen and
oxygen (through some magic process) and the hydrogen burned as a fuel supply and the oxygen added to the process (like
atmospheric oxygen is). Not true of course, but it does somehow moderate the combustion process and prevents engine knock,
and maybe other benefits too, not sure.

Russ from MN · Sep 22, 2018

I tried some diesel in an old JD B once, I put it in the little tank and after I got the tractor running on gas I switched it over. It died, and I had to drain the carburetor and start it back on gas. I don't think it had working shutters and I didn't know about getting them up to temperature before switching. We always just run straight gas, but dad talked about Power fuel (distillate) that was common back in the 30's

docmirror · Sep 22, 2018

Jet A is kerosene which is tightly controlled for water, evaporates, and byproducts. But still - kerosene. Any distillate tractor which is in good condition will run jet A fuel just fine. If you go to a small airport and ask for it, tell them it's for your distillate tractor or they may not sell to you.

randy hall · Sep 22, 2018

the water injection cools the combustion chamber to eliminate pre ignition from the red hot carbon deposits. My son's pulling tractor uses a quart and a half of water in 300 feet to keep things from melting, his is injected into the manifold just like most of the old kerosene tractors. If you look up the Nebraska tests in will show that the oil pull used almost as much water as kerosene under a heavy load as they had pretty high compression for the day. Most all of the old tractors just used a valve that you manually regulated but the Kingston carb on the oil pull had a chamber for the water and regulated it. An IH 15-30 also had a dual chamber carburetor. Our hart-parr juust used a manual valve.

Bob · Sep 22, 2018

(quoted from post at 15:15:39 09/22/18) Bob ..... not sure how much water is used up when "injected" into those engines, but a guy would have to watch the radiator
level for sure if it were coming from the rad. My friend spent the last six months working on an Oil Pull Rumley (the current
owner uses kerosene for fuel and it's PRICEY. Rumleys have water injection but theose use a separate water tank for that. Of
course, their coolant is oil (not water).

Question .... is the water injected into the carburetor or directly into the cylinder head or combustion chamber maybe? One
thing that is interesting is that some people believe the water is "burned off" (like a fuel) or separated into hydrogen and
oxygen (through some magic process) and the hydrogen burned as a fuel supply and the oxygen added to the process (like
atmospheric oxygen is). Not true of course, but it does somehow moderate the combustion process and prevents engine knock,
and maybe other benefits too, not sure.

As I said in my first post, on the "D", water was fed into the throttle bore of the carburetor.

The water valve is shown circled in red in the photo below.

It screws into the throttle bore, and is fed water by a pipe to the engine block below it.

They have a heavy check valve built into that valve that is supposed to stop the flow if the engine is not running/sucking.

The little rod going to the right passes though the engine crankcase and comes out the backside in reach of the operator to manually control the rate of water flow, or shut it off completely.

So, obviously, you have to add water to the radiator as needed to replenish what's "burned".

The bottom photo is of one of the valves.

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sammydwm · Sep 22, 2018

I work at a small refinery that works with used oil. We get Light Fuel Distillate as one of the byproducts. Nasty smelling stuff but burns OK. We use it to run the boiler that runs the refinery.

buickanddeere · Sep 22, 2018

(quoted from post at 23:39:42 09/21/18) The distillate mentioned here is, if I understand correctly, fuel oil.

Wrong Distilant is close to today’s Jet A-1 kerosene , not even close to #2 diesel.
Sure operator’s do get All-Fuel engines good and hot then they will run the tractor with some success on #2 if heavily loaded.
Cylinder bore wear is increased due to lube oil wash down by the unburied diesel . The crankcase oil level will also rise due to accumulation of unburied fuel.

Leroy · Sep 22, 2018

Diesel will have an oily feel to it where kerosine does not, kerosine will feel more like gasoline and diesel will feel more like motor oil.

Tx Jim · Sep 23, 2018

(quoted from post at 23:55:47 09/22/18) Diesel will have an oily feel to it where kerosine does not, kerosine will feel more like gasoline and diesel will feel more like motor oil.

IMHO today's ULSD isn't near as oily as the diesel of old. ULSD will nearly evaporate if accidentally spilled on concrete.

wisbaker · Sep 23, 2018

I had an old book titled care and operation of farm equipment published by John Deere in the late 20's/early 30's and they discussed the water injection system of the D in that book, here is a thought for you, the Air Force used water injection on several of its' larger Aircraft (B52G, KC135A) where they overfueled the engine and dumped large quantities of de-mineralized water into the hot section of the engine for increased thrust during take off. While serving at KI Sawyer Air Force Base in upper Michigan my office was in the bomb dump just to the east and south of the runway. During the summer anytime we had winds from the south they of course would take off heading South, into the wind. When they were running the KC 135 with water injection for take off when they flew over my office stuff would vibrate off my desk. The KC 135 had 4 engines and used two water pumps, there was a story going around that at first they plumbed the aircraft and so you had a left and a right pump, it worked fine until one of the water pumps failed and the aircraft experienced massive asymmetrical thrust during takeoff, after that they changed the plumbing so one pump ran the inner two engines (#2 and #3) the other pump the outer engines (#3 and #4). There is a picture of KC 135s and B52Gs taking off with water injection and big thick black clouds behind them, thee caption "Made when man thought he could burn water"

What is Didtillate as a fuel

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