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Organic Grain Prices

T

Traditional Farmer

Well-known Member
Location
Virginia
Here are some prices actually received for organic grains as reported by Organic Farmers of Michigan from Acres USA Magazine.Prices are FOB at the farm or cleaning facility.
Corn------------------------------$9.50-$10.50 bushel
Soft red and white Winter wheat---$10.00-$13.00 bu.
High Protein Soybeans-------------$23.00-$25.00 bu.
Low Protein Soybeans--------------$20.00-$22.00 bu.
Feed Soybeans---------------------$18.00-$20.00 bu
Dark Red Kidney Beans-------------$1.20-$1.30 pound
Pinto Beans-----------------------$.74-$.78 lb.
 
Those are good prices. How do organic crops compare as far as yield and cost of production? Those numbers would tell true profits. I have a neighbor raising organic corn and beans, his crops will be nothing this year due to weeds because we had so much rain.
 
Yup, you go broke in the 10 years of no-fertilizer, no-spray it takes to get to where you can call your stuff organic, then go broke again because the weeds overtake your crops when it rains too much, or because nothing grows at all when it rains too little.

Then the BTOs come in and snap up your land for pennies on the dollar. Great plan.
 
The Old Timers use to call things like this "Pie in the Sky"....you never really get to taste it...
 
Im just kinda joking with you here, I dont know right or wrong on this subject But,,,,Did you like to poke at those big paper bees nests when you were young?Do you throw cups of gas when you make a brush burning pile? (lol)
 
TF ...... interesting stuff. I wonder as to the reason that some prices are per bushel and others are by weight? Any idea of why that might be?
 
Just because you'd go broke doesn't mean someone else would. A guy down in NC I bought an Oliver from couple years ago that has around 1,000 acres grows mostly wheat and Green Peppers
organically is very successful and told me he's making way more money now farming than when he was farming conventionally.Must be from the amount of newer equipment and tractors around.If you think successful organic growers have run down land then you don't know the first thing about growing organically.My garden is 100% organic and has been for years,this year I couldn't plant until the 18th of June because of wet weather.Been able to cultivate 1 time yesterday we gathered over 2 bushels of squash of different types,beans,Okra are in full bloom with some short beans on the vines.Rows are 8ft apart and the squash vines are touching and I haven't added anything to the garden this year just growing from the fertility already there from manure last Fall and the knee high Crimson Clover i tilled in
earlier this Spring.
 
I do know some about the gardening,,and agree,,if soil is healthy the plants do much better ,,Im getting better at it,,but it takes time and patience and organic gardening does work.I have some to learn yet.Compost has helped and things are getting better. I believe I could have avoided the tomato problem if I had done a few precautionary organic steps,,,my fault this year
 
People ask me why do you waste time growing potatoes,,they are cheap to buy?, I answer,,I enjoy doing it. Also ,I read how many different sprays are used in commercial growing.So ,I do grow some,,its not real difficult,its rewarding to me,,and Im happy when we eat them.I realize some spray is needed for commercial growing,,but I did read the last spray is weed killer to kill the vines so the machinery digging the crop works better?Is this true? That seemed like some unnecessary spray in my opinion.There seemed to me to be better ways,,such as mowing the tops off?We wait for the vines to die of naturally? Im not an expert mind you,,just curious and willing to hear any responses.
 
I think mechanical weed control is mostly a lost art,first off the soil needs to be in balance,then I like to disk several times before planting to kill off weeds that have sprouted.Once planted a rotary hoe works good before plants come up then I use disk hillers turned away from the row when the plants are very small then turn around the hillers to throw dirt between the rows when they are bigger gets almost all the weeds.Also with vegetables I plant the rows wide enough to go go between them with a narrow compact tractor and 4ft wide tiller,have it set about 2 inches deep and run pretty fast with the tractor does a good job.Some of the high value vegetable growers I know put down strips of black plastic about a month prior to planting
where the rows will be this makes the weeds sprout and then die under the plastic take the plastic up and plant the vegetables.They usually get very few weeds,also some planters are capable of punching a hole in the plastic and planting the vegetable seed.
 

There are people that do well with organic and there are lots more that don't. In the right place with the right crops it can be done by the right guy. Otherwise it's just a crap shoot.
 
Its an interesting subject,,and I Like to hear both sides from everyone,,,thanks to your post,and any replies.It is definitely farm related and very interesting reading!
 
There is a product called Neptune's Harvest fish/kelp blend mix it with water and spray or use a water can to soak the foliage,its amazing how much it will improve plant growth and
the plant's health.The more deficient your soil is the bigger improvement You'll see.I also submerge all my potted plants in kelp water before transplanting makes a huge difference in
how the plants take off and grow,Go to Countryside Organics website a huge selection of organic growing products there,I'm fortunate their main store/warehouse is just over the mountain from me in Waynesboro VA.
 
(quoted from post at 12:40:10 08/02/18) Yup, you go broke in the 10 years of no-fertilizer, no-spray it takes to get to where you can call your stuff organic, then go broke again because the weeds overtake your crops when it rains too much, or because nothing grows at all when it rains too little.

Then the BTOs come in and snap up your land for pennies on the dollar. Great plan.
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It would seem that you don't have a clue of what you are talking about.
 
Since when did it take 10 years to transition? The transition period is only 3 years, after 3 years of following your
organic plan, you can market your crops as organic.
 
you are talking about gardening which is a whole different thing from large scale farming. I am in favor of organic gardening and support that. Large scale is totally different and has different issues.
 
Hard to see the light if you never provide yield and cost of production figures. These prices are useless without cost and yield figures. Gold is worth more than corn too, but buying and selling for profit is more difficult.
 
What I do can be done on any scale,I know of people that spray their hay land and pastures with Neptune's Harvest that aren't necessarily organic.What its boils down to is if a person wants to do something they'll find a way if they are against it they can find a million reasons it won't/can't work.
 
That's like asking how much does it cost to raise a calf,everyone has a different number.All I can say is most of the people I know that have switched to organics are telling me its more profitable for them than conventional farming ever was.The way I get into anything is do small test plots and go from there as far as estimating costs organic or not.Of course going to a larger scale changes things and costs but generally speaking its cheaper per acre to raise 20 acres of something than 2 acres.The big factor in also is what market you have to sell to is really going to affect the bottom line more than growing costs.In my area the organic/local grown market is very strong, in rural conventional farming areas probably very little
local demand.
 
yes, but is it cost effective on a large scale? I see you still haven't talked yield and costs yet. You promote based on hopes and dreams and not reality. When you show me the net profit numbers then I'll decide if it's good or bad. So far it's nothing but propaganda.
 
(quoted from post at 09:41:47 08/02/18)Some of the high value vegetable growers I know put down strips of black plastic about a month prior to planting
where the rows will be this makes the weeds sprout and then die under the plastic take the plastic up and plant the vegetables.They usually get very few weeds,also some planters are capable of punching a hole in the plastic and planting the vegetable seed.
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Using plastic in this way should be against the "rules of organic".

Down here in the commercial strawberry fields they use a two or three row planter that hills the row high and flat, lays down the black plastic on top along with a strip of irrigation tape under it. It also puts dirt on the outer edge of plastic and punches a 2 or 3 inch hole. The planter also holds the plants that two or three riders are planting in the holes.
 
First off I couldn't care less what you decide to do,if you're making good money farming the way you're farming then keep on at it.I'll say you'd be the exception to the farmers I know personally.I'm just giving an overview of what people I know are doing and how its worked for them.I don't have access to their income tax statements but being around people I know it isn't too hard to figure who is doing good and who isn't.I have yet to get into any enterprise where there was a blueprint for success laid out because if it was there'd be a crowd doing it
and the profit would be gone because of over supply which is about where conventional corn and soybean production is today.
 
I disagree on costs for large scale organic being cheaper. Finding organic fertilizer and shipping it in large enough quantities for large scale farming would get spendy. Most of the organic farmers that I've known have just shortchanged that and run down the soils.
 
yes they unroll it as the plastic goes on. Trick is the ground needs to be worked very fine to hill up the rows and also to bury the edge of the plastic quite an operation very close working with weather. In a wet yr just don't have time for he ground to work good. Got to have a good tiller to prep the ground.
 
I'm glad we live in a society - for now - that allows us to choose what food and which way we want to farm.

Organic is a good alternative for some smaller operations that own their own land and live on fairly good dirt in a location that's is buying organic.

You need the opportunity: with the 3 year transition costs, and the extra requirements it is difficult to set up on rented land. Organic is a long term deal, not 1-5 year lease....

You need good dirt and access to manure or seaweed or other organic fertilizers. Since your options are so limited, you need to have some right near you. Organic fertilizers are good; but they tend to be very heavy full of water or fiber and cost a lot to haul a short distance. It is more difficult to balance your soil with organics; if you are short on N but have a lot of P, then manure will overload and waste the P as you build the N up. You can plant a legume to plow down to grow your N, but that will consume 6 months of growing time so you can't get a crop to sell.... You really need to start with good balanced soil. There is no magic here, if you haul a crop off your field you need to replace those nutrients, and organic is difficult to keep balanced with the options allowed.

Weed control is everything, if you live in a drier climate this will be easier. A wet area the weeds are relentless. In a dry area you might lose some crop to drought, but you can stay in top of the weeds a lot easier.

Markets, you need a market that is buying what you sell. Bulk grains can be tough, if I went organic I could sell to a place 23 miles away, 90 miles away, or 125 miles away. When they need a crop (one is on the radio right now wanting soybeans) they will pay nicely; when they are full they will turn you away, or discount and reject heavily. I have three options to deliver, a very fickle market..... regular grain I have an elevator less than one mile from my driveway, and about 12 places tos elk grain within 20 miles, if one closes, or burns, or roads get detoured... I have many options, with organic I become very very dependent on a couple places only.p and travel distances become longer and longer. I need to be able to store my grains for when the organic places want delivery, in most cases as well, so there are storeage costs. In the end what you get for what you deliver is -not- the big high price you see listed, it becomes a local basis price perhaps close to what is listed if they really need your crop; or perhaps pretty close down to the conventional prices if it needs trucking a long ways, they are full of that crop; there are discounts for too many weeds, too low a quality.

Small organic operations can direct market, which is selling retail off your farm. Even better money, but you spend a great deal of time as a saleperson, and you need to be a people person. You seek a few at a time, using up a lot of time, time you can't use to actually grow something. It works great in the right location, but it certainly is not for everyone! Many of these direct crops are feast or famine types, more finicky, matching your production to your demand is a bit of an art form.

Double or more the grain prices and it sure looks rosey doesn't it?

Factor in the extra risks by limiting your fertility, insect, and weed options generally using higher priced poorer options, then factor in the marketing risks and extra costs, lower yields, and it gets back to right where any farming is - close to break even.

That is the goal of the eating public - good food at the cheapest prices they can get. Organic or conventional, doesn't matter.

Again, certainly an alternative for some growers, and a good match for some people in certain situations.

Paul
 
That is exactly why I'm so sceptical, I'm still waiting for the first long term success story for organics that I've personally seen. So far they have all been failures. That includes my dad trying it back in the 70's when I was young. Of course he 9joy tried it for a short time and quickly left when profits we rent there. But there have been several locals since that have tried it for longer times and so far all have failed.
 
I would guess it needs flat ground as well?

Back when dad had me cultivating, my rolling hilly farm would wash the topsoil off as we cultivated very fine ribbons os loose soil three times a year right during the rainy season here.

Ribbons of hilled plastic up and down my farm would be even worse.

My farm is much more sustainable and healthy without the row crop cultivations, soil stays in place. And I still do a lot of tillage, just not that terrible shallow fine stuff.

Kinda need to cherry pick locations to use for organic and prosper with it. There needs to be a local advantage, whether markets, soil itself, fertilizer source next door, something that gives a leg up to the operation.

Paul
 
Do you actually have a market in your area? Seems like the East Coast is the better market for organics, with grain the transportation costs will kill the deal.In Lancaster Farming
Perdue is always advertising for organically grown grain in Delaware.Near me over in the Shenandoah Valley there are around 30 big organic poultry growers that buy organic grain.As far as long term they just bought a $900,000 slaughter facility that did belong to Holly Farms at one point so I'd say they are in it for the long haul.That'd be a steady market for the grain for sure.No farming is a get rich quick deal but at least there is a potential for a profit in organics I think.
 
Old bulk grains historically get priced by the bushel. 200 years ago there were no scales available on every farm or even every town; but everyone could own a bu basket and fill sacks that way.

Apples or potatoes or such were sold individually to customers, and could be counted that way.

In the last 100 years every place has an accurate scale available; everything is actually sold by weight. The older grains are priced by bu still; so they take the weight, and apply the test weight and quality to the grain, and come up with an adjusted number of bushels you have in your truck.

Apples and newer crops like sunflowers they might just call per 100 weight now, or per 100 lbs.

A poor explanation of how pricing evolved.

Bushels is a measure of volume, lbs is a measure of weight. In the old days they could only accurately measure volume or count how many. Now nearly everything is actually weighed, and then some are converted back to 'good volume' amounts.

Paul
 
I can buy a tractor load of say Planters II in bulk a heck of a lot cheaper per ton than I can buy it in 50 lb bags.The way I've bought it is in a 1 ton tote bag cheaper than 50 lb bags but more expensive than a trailer load.So it goes,also with the organic poultry growers not too far away I can buy a bulk trailer load of manure from them way cheaper per ton than
buying it bagged up.But it gets back to having organic operations nearby it all works together.
 
How many actual organic operations have you ever been around? Your post sounds like it just came from a Monsanto talking points memo which it probably did.
 
Nice explanation,,Here's an interesting story.I was At the local little farmers market,they hold it in the county library and parking lot on Sundays.A Man was selling home grown organic oatmeal.Since my daughter really likes oatmeal,,I was reading about it and checking out his stand.I was wearing a farm co op hat,that was sent to me from a person on this very site. The man saw my co op hat and asked me if I was a farmer.I explained that I Was sick,and bald,,and the great people on this site sent me hats from all over the country. He said,,I Know the site!I have an old gleaner combine,,your site helps me keep it going! I did buy a bag of the fresh rolled oats,,it was very good. It was maybe twice or a little more than twice the price of store oatmeal,,but it was very good,I must say.The young man was very much a people person.He said,,buy it,,if your daughter doesn't like it,,come back here ,Im always here,,you'll get your money back if she doesn't like it.
 
I know of several growers that have a machine that unrolls the plastic and buries the side with dirt all in one pass and it works pretty good in a variety of soil conditions,of course the smoother and better worked up the soil the nicer job it does.That's been standard practice growing vegetables in many places for years.
 
I am curious, what part of Paul's reply is false or miss-leading? This is the second time, that I'm aware of, that you have questioned his knowledge, when his statements seem to be based on sound logic and common sense. Ron
 
Actually, I'm for the smaller organic farms to work it out and make it go.

I just want to be realistic about it.

Organic is hard. It takes a lot of thought and planning.

You need to be in weed patrol from morning to night. Before you see the weeds.

You need to organize how you will feed your crops, and how you will sell your crops. Both of these are very different, specialized, rare. You need a plan out ahead of yourself several years to get this right. It is work to understand and create a long term organic farm. These plans are critical. It is easy to fail, and there are no easy rescues if something goes wrong.

The paperwork for a certified organic operation is huge. It's good, it forces you to consider the above, but it is time consuming.

Your messages are all birds singing, organic is easy, everyone should do it, income is double....

Well, I think you message is a lot of fertilizer there......

Organic farming takes a lot of time, money, planning, and research. Much more than you admit to.

You mention a garden often, and if you just have an organic garden, so do millions of other people. Then they go to the store for 75% of their food.....

If you want to be a growing, income producing, responsible and progressive organic farm, you are in for a lot of work, a lot of up front costs, and a lot of paperwork. Returns won't come back for 3-5 years so you better start with a lot of cash. And a very serious work ethic.

I want the casual reader here to know what it's all about, not the typical 'organic is easy and natural and get rich quick just sit and watch your crops grow' drivel we often see on the internet.

There are many many hard working, successful organic producers here an on other farm forums. When they talk about farming and farm issues and the realities of it, they are welcomed.

When they sing and dance how easy it is and how it's all about hating one company only, well then they are marginalized. It's an agenda by people typing, not a reality.

I've never really heard you talk about anything organic other than you grow a liitle garden and everyone else should go organic? Maybe it's time for you to chip in with something real here too?

If you grow a garden and pine away for the old ways while sitting in your air conditioned house in the comfy recliner, that is cool. But you aren't really talking reality then.

I really want newcomers to make organic farming work. I'm not a sideline cheerleader.

I assume we shall always butt heads on this, as you appear to be a sideline cheerleader to me. Or as someone said, the kid with the stick, looking for a hornets nest to poke.

To all the organic producers out there, I enjoy your efforts from time to time, and I realize you are too busy killing weeds to join in on this conversation..... we share the same basic farming challenges, what we do is the same thing, you have a more limited set of rules, less options. Sure glad you and your customers have a chance to do your thing.

I encourage anyone interested to check it out, but it is a long term game, it isn't cheap, and it is a -lot- of work, not much different than regular farming. You get chances at much higher crop prices, but much of that is eaten up with higher costs, longer waiting times to get paid, and more critical price discounts. Having some sort of natural advantage sure helps you get started - next to a market, next to an organic fertilizer source, some special good ground you own, something to your advantage. Almost need that.

We need to be realistic.

Paul
 
Thanks for the smile. :)

I've always had great respect for the organic growers that realize they need to protect their markets, and not want -everyone- to grow organicly. Or the premium will go away.......

Are you more produce or grain or livestock oriented in your organics?

Paul
 
I have enjoyed very much this discussion on organic farming. And I have concluded that in some respects you are all correct. You do need the correct topography, rolling or hilly land will wash , and be a disaster. And also , like every other farm commodity, you need to have a market, and a steady close by market.
It is my opinion, and remember this is just an opinion, Organic farming is best practiced in a mix style farm. So you need livestock to produce manure, and to allow the opportunity to rotate into, and use on your farm , a legume crop, like clover or Alfalfa.
Organic farming is more about sustainable farming. And you have to find a mix of crops that complement each other. And not just grow the same old three crop rotation of corn wheat and soy.
I have grown crops in line with organic protocols for the past three years on one of my farms, and I am ready to apply for organic Certification on this farm. I am starting to experiment with growing silage corn on my home farm, and if successful, my ultimate goal is to go to full Certified Organic dairy. There is a strong market for organic milk and meat, as well as any grain that I might grow like wheat, that is not suitable for milk cows.
Yes it takes time to become organic, yes weeds are relentless, but dairy allows for good crop rotation, and even weeds chop into silage , lol.
The one thing that remains constant is the fact that it only takes one pass with the sprayer to return to conventional crops. And if you continue to do things the same way everyone else does, you can expect to get the same results. And if they are going broke, you probably will too. So , maybe it could be time to look at doing things different. Bruce
 
Here We have some actual photos of organic and conventional wheat better prices ? Yes but less than half the yield and poorer quality do to weeds and morning glory taking over with no way to stop it these are dry land fields
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Around here it seems organic corn silage is frowned upon. The nearest organic dairy sold off his corn planter and so forth. I never got an explanation and don't understand as corn silage is a good energy feed during the cold months.
 
When I was a kid, my dad was semi organic. Used loads of cow manure. Used a plow, Used cultivators and rotary hoe. He did add a little fertilizer when planting. Could also add fertilizer when cultivating. No sprayer.

I remember when dad was happy to get 20 bushels acre with beans and 100 bushel corn was impressive.

I remember us kids removing milkweed and corn from beans MANUALLY.

Guess you could say those were the good old days, NOT!!

Just thinking, would going organic cut yield and increase weeds in grain which you would get docked for? So at the end of the year would you be ahead or behind?
 
I had a deer plot I planted last Fall with turnips and over seeded with wheat,I had a way better and nicer stand of wheat than the organic one you took a picture of and almost weed free.Its like everything else you get back what you put in,your grower must be like some on here think growing organically is just not putting anything on the land just the opposite
is the truth a good organic producers land will be much richer and better than almost any conventional growers.
 
So what organic inputs did he add? Adding nothing but cow manure and some chemical fertilizer is hardly ever going to produce anything and surely isn't organic.
 
What do you put on to control weeds in wheat and barley? I know we?ve used a rotary hoe and spring tine harrow but after it?s a foot tall then what ? I?d be really interested because it would be nice to control the weeds
 
As usual, the most thoughtful response. I"d like to drive out to west central MN and see a farm run by a guy names Carmen Fernholz...organic farmer. Around here there"s one, has numerous 40-80 acre fields...I can tell which ones by driving that neighborhood and seeing the weediest fields. Check the plat book, yep, it"s his.
 
The quality and yield is way lower but the price is way higher if you have an organic market selling it on the open market you get docked for the lower quality and then the lower yield . Some things are easy to do organic like a beef operation because usually on grass land If you manage it right the grass will control the weeds and if you manage your calving date to work with the best weather you?ll be able to get a long without having to doctor sick calves
 
I can see the land being better than conventional on a 1/4 acre garden the fact is on big fields they are overrun buy weeds and the weeds like morning glory and thistles just keep getting worse and no amount of unicorn poop seems to control them
 
(quoted from post at 10:04:45 08/02/18) Around here it seems organic corn silage is frowned upon. The nearest organic dairy sold off his corn planter and so forth. I never got an explanation and don't understand as corn silage is a good energy feed during the cold months.
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Hardly anybody wants to buy "silage" period, let alone pay a premium for organic. Most farmers just want to rent the land and grow it themselves so they have control over the inputs and a good idea of what to expect come fall.

If you've got standing corn in the field and it will never make picking, you've got to beg and plead with local farmers and practically give it away, even though they need the feed.
 
Don't put anything on really,just disk a few times before I plant the turnips in August then over seed with wheat in this case about the end of Sept makes for a really good
food plot come hunting season in Nov.I broadcast the wheat or sometimes oats pretty thick and broadcasting is better than drilling to control weeds since there are few bare spots so when the grain takes off early in the Spring it'll choke most everything back for a good while.The turnips usually Winter kill here. This year it was clean enough to easily combine when it dried if I'd of wanted to.Growing up that's the way everyone planted wheat,worst thing that can happen is for it to get real wet about the time its ready to combine but if that happens probably not going to get much wheat regardless of how its grown because it'll become water logged, fall over and maybe mold.Turkeys and deer worked on the grain thru the middle of July and some weeds did come up in the wheat then but I bush hogged everything down before the weeds seeded out.Now I'm in a holding pattern because its way too wet to do anything.As soon as the weather clears I'll be extra busy working the deer plots up,getting them seeded and making hay.It'll be a while we've had 6 or 7 inches of rain in the last 6 days.Raining now.
 
I said semi organic. Manure and some fertilizer, no chemicals in sprayer. I don't recall if he used lime. This was back in the 50's
 
Row crops. Corn soys wheat edible beans some strawberries. When I transition a field I grow alfalfa. I pick up a little more land every year.
 
Doesn't hurt the world any to have some cheerleaders in it either, so it's not all bad. :)

Paul
 
Is there any premium yet for non-GMO, but also non-organic grain and livestock? That seems to be what foreign markets prefer now and IMHO what the US consumers will want in the near future.
 
Hi Bruce, the weeds will chop OK but modern equipment is not designed to handle weedy crops.
My brother went organic about 20 years ago and it was difficult to cut his corn with the lamb?s quarter and fox tail would wrap on the gathering chains. It was OK if everything was dry but any dampness and the weeds would wined on the gathering chains. Forage harvester was a JD with the rubber belts on steel chains. He bought an older NH Supper 717 with old style corn head and it worked much better.

JimB
 
If you are on the side that believes there is a big loss in yield from growing organic than you have spent way more time talking and giving opinions than doing field walks or research. I farmed organic corn and beans for a number of years. Some years I did quite well, some years it was a total bust. I can tell you this,, Some farmers have BETTER yields than their conventional neighbors. The real difference is in the ground and experience. There is a huge learning curve, and you need patience. Not all ground is suited for this practice. I had trouble with to much rain on flat heavy wet soil. Hard to rotary hoe or run a tine weeder in mud. If you have to wait a week to get on the ground the weeds will win. (poor yield) Loamy rolling hills work well from what I have seen. If you cant do a good job farming with chemicals, you will never do well organically. I have been on Organic Farms that have great soil, and great yields. Much better than I have done by spraying. Before you run down someone, or their practice try to remember, this is a very large country. If someone does poorly farming in YOUR neighborhood someone else might do way better in a different place. Unless you have traveled thousands of miles to other areas to do farm tours than you can only give half Azzed opinions. Just look around , some guys are doing really well. And they might even be making money. Al
 
Good points,seems there has to be a whole lot of successful organic growers somewhere.In 15 miles of my farm there are two large chain grocery stores that sell nothing but organic food and
all the others Walmart,Kroger,Wegmans etc have good size organic sections in them so organic food is being produced in high volume and it must be profitable or producers wouldn't stay in the business.Many people have the incorrect assumption because they can't do it no one else can either.In addition I can go to several different farmers markets in my area and buy a wide variety
of nice organically produced food so it must work for these folks too.
 
As a "younger" person to most of my peers in this group, a lot of my by hand farming practices were gone by the time I helped and grew up on a dairy farm here in PA. Our hand work was feeding animals and baling hay. However, I have really taken up a joy in reading old books. The Operation, Care and Repair of Farm Machinery books from Deere and Co in the 20/30/40's has really been a favorite of mine when traveling for work by airplane. I think if people read more, they would remember more, as there are lots of very good details in these old books. I know the days of the family farm are further away than they are closer, but we can still maintain the same values.

This passage is my favorite. In fact, my parents have posted it right at their front door as a reminder why they still fight the good fight each day as times get tougher. I would love to start some organic farming but it just takes so much up front its a tough wall to climb. Most conventional farmers have a hard enough time here breaking even with modern crops, let alone lower yields. "we're not in Kansas" as they say.



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Like the organic guy on YouTube bragging about his 200 bu corn and 80 bu soybeans. Ain?t never happened or he?s cheating.
 
Now that you mention it, all farming before synthetic fertilizers and pesticides must have been organic. When did the use of synthetic fertilizers first become popular, in the 1920's or was it as late as after WW2?
 
I think organic is a good idea price wise and alfalfa grass hay we never fertilized or did anything and never had much of a problem with weeds at all . cattle i Almost never doctor for anything but I am not going to not use a nnalert if I have to last year at the dairy we lost 15 cows and nothing we could do about but watch em die there is some organic stuff but it didn?t work
 
(quoted from post at 20:53:14 08/03/18) Now that you mention it, all farming before synthetic fertilizers and pesticides must have been organic. When did the use of synthetic fertilizers first become popular, in the 1920's or was it as late as after WW2?
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My grandfather farmed with no chemicals from the 1920s to mid 50s. Conservation farming came after the 1930s dust bowl years. That involved planting crops following the contour of the hills and rotating where the crops were planted. (corn, hay, oats ) In the mid 50s my dad took over the farm. In the 60s farmers started using atrazine and 2-4-D, but still cultivated the row crops. Modern farms have been moving away from those practices and have been rotating between corn and soybeans with little thought what this is doing to the soil or environment. They have been growing too much of what we don't need and rely on the government to find markets for the glut of corn and soybeans that have flooded those markets. I'm getting off track now, so back to my grandfathers time. Farmers in my grandfathers time didn't have chemicals to rely to control weeds. They used crop rotation and cultivators for their row crops. They grew these crops to feed the animals that made the money on the farm. Their yields weren't anything you see now, but they weren't flooding the markets with corn and soybeans either. Will you get rich farming as they did? Only if you work at it all your life and manage to put some money in the bank on good years. Farming was a lifetime endeavor in those days and you had to stick it out during good years and bad.
 
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