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Water Line under Railroad

H

Hurst

Member
Has anyone recently dealt with replacing a water line under a railroad bed? We have a CSX owned track through our farm, and the water line that my great-grandfather put in back in 1946 is coming to the end of its life. I currently have a leak near/under the rail bed. I dug a pilot hole to get eyes on the line about 15 feet back from the rails (where the leak detector picked up the leak), and it seems the leak is further back towards the railroad. I talked to the shortline company that leases the line from CSX and they said anything that involved repair or maintenance they could handle, but anything that would qualify as a new installation would have to be permitted and re-licensed again through CSX. The original license agreement says it is a 1-inch pipe in a 2-inch pipe casing (all galvanized pipe from 1946), but I have not seen the first sign of 2 inch casing and that is within 15 ft of the center of the track. Has anyone had any experience working with CSX on a pipeline? I have a residence and 2 horse barns that are land-locked by the railroad from city utilities. Currently, the water line is leaking around 100,000 gallons of water a month under their railbed, so I would think they would like to help get this fixed before it undermines the railbed footing.

Hurst
 
This is one of those cases where forgiveness is a lot easier to get than permission. Find a way to attach a good one inch line on one side , dig down on the other and pull it under. If the casing is under there as supposed to be it will help and if not you will have a new one inch line that will last some time.
 
I forgot to mention, that there is a fiber optic line on one side of the railroad (opposite from the leak), but 811 is supposed to be here by tomorrow to have everything marked. Would you have to pull galvanized, I'm guessing? Not sure plastic could stand a pull through a railbed.


Hurst
 
Soft copper 1" line. Machine an adapter that slides into the copper about 6 inches. cross drill in 4 places for roll pins to prevent pull out. weld it to the original pipe, and pull it through with a back hoe. We pulled 60 ft that way in 10 minutes. Jim
 
Years ago my parents had a new well put in. The well driller had a "Turpedo" ( what he called it) it was driven by an industrial air compressor. It used the water line as an air supply and was basicly hammer type contraption that pulled the air/water line behind itself. After it got where it needed to go you disconnected both ends and the water line is done. Perhaps a well driller in your area would hire out. Go right under the track at what ever depth you local frost line is. Presto done. Then just tie that new line into existing line. FWIW
Sod Buster
 
I would have a blue plastic the new thick stuff bored under the rail and the fiber.

Dealing with the rail co will be the hard part. They need satisfaction imeadiately, but if you have a problem like this it can get lost in the paperwork and bearacracy for months and months.

You do anything on their easement and they can about lock you in jail with no key, as you are interfereing with interstate commerce.

People who know someone in the rail company can get things done, because there is someone on the inside to look after the paperwork and keep it moving. Without that, your paperwork is unimportant and forgotten.

Paul
 
There are plenty of companies that bore waterlines, electric cables, gas lines, fiber optic cables and sewer lines under existing roads and streets. Your municipal water company should be able to get you in touch with some of the local companies that they use. The water company probably has other lines crossing the same railroad and might have some advice about working with the RR.

100,000 gallons per month (2.4 GPM) is a pretty good water leak. Is it possible that your waterline was damaged when the fiber optic cable was installed (vibratory plow?) ? If your waterline repair needs to be made close to the fiber optic cable, I would hire a someone else to do the repairs that is insured and bonded. Repairing a broken fiber optic cable is very expensive. You can try to ask for forgiveness after cutting a FO cable, but you might need to sell the farm to get it.
 
Jan is probably right copper and you would not have to be level or straight back just un role it as you pull but black iron or galvanized will also doo if you have room to get it straight . The fiber cable brings on more talk sure do not need to get close to that for sure.
 
I would just have it bored in,but there is no way I would do it till you have it in writing for a permit. Screwing around with a railroad will have you in jail and bankrupt.(Think Homeland Security)
 

Just go over the tracks...
20305.jpg
 
So reading between the lines tells me that you are responsible for paying 100% for the fix? If the answer is yes, I'm not sure that any of us here have the expertise or the knowledge to advise you as to what to do and how to do it unless they know a lot more about your situation than what is known here in your post. Just the legalities alone as well as the liability involved would make me deal with the people involved and not with the YT advisory board (of which I am a member in good standing).
 
Even back in 1946 two inch pipe was expensive. Only one length of pipe was probably used. You may need to dig a little closer to the tracks. Maybe do it at night with a flash light. Stan
 
Type K soft copper. Much thicker walled and long lasting. Do not use type L as it is thin and can develope pin holes from electrolysis,
 
I am sure that CSX has a civil engineering department and they should have a standard detail drawing available so that the work can be done according to their standards. If you let them know about the amount of leakage occurring they should move quickly to get you the onformation you need. I believe that you should verify that your utility contractor is covered by liability insurance in the amount required by CSX. CSX should inspect and approve the work before it is backfilled. You should be able to locate the new water line in a different location to keep the old one in service until you are approved on the new water line installation. The boring utility companies are quick and cost eficient nowadays. You should try to get compwtitive bids on doing the boring.
 
I was hoping someone else on here may have a farm with a pipe going under a railway that might give me insight for how to deal with this. Reading the railroad's application process, it looks like it is a 5 figure project just to get a green light in less than a month, but maybe a lot of their expenses wouldn't apply to a small short line. I just can't imagine a small farmer being able to afford what they say they want. The local company that leases the track says they can handle the situation until it becomes a replacement instead of a repair.

Hurst.
 
not so much the rail road, had a buddy that was an contractor and he hit and broke fiber optic, he was 3' from the locate, they charged him $75,000 per minute until it was repaired, he went out of business.
 
If it would cost 5 figures would it not be more cost effective to drill a deep well on your land and turn off and abandon the old line under the railroad?
 
Boring will be the way you will have to get it done. I was lucky as my neighbor has a small directional bore machine. He said he gets 1200 to start that machine minimum. But when you need one its worth the cost. Hopefully you can get a weekend cash discount with someone.
 
Not under a rail road, just a street, but had one done years back. Company dug a long trench, then fed a cable through the existing water line. They then connected the new line to the old line and pulled it in with no disturbance. I believe they had some kind of cable clamp adapter threaded in as well. That should qualify as a repair and be doable with out as much hassle. If it is leaking as much as you say, the soil should be well lubricated. Also, use schedule 80 Galvanized steel pipe. Do not use black iron or PVC under a rail road bed, they won't last.
 
You better contact CSX and do whatever is legal by them, or you will be heavily fined and could be arrested. Anything within their right-of-way is serious business, I don?t remember the width on each side of the rail bed but I know from experience as a natural gas employee for 39 years you better follow protocol. We deal with several railroad companies in our service territory and some of them require us to pay an annual fee for every gas pipe line crossing, not going to name railroad company names here but do the right thing or you will lose and they will win....
 
Maybe they would let you run a temporary line just under the rails between 2 ties, then you could stop the leakage. It's a shame to waste that much water, who is paying for that? How deep is the existing water line? In N MN we would have to go 9 feet under a RR track!
 
Have you considered pulling or pushing pex thru existing pipe. I think would qualify as a repair. If you have to go thru CSX it will be a big deal.
 
The high cost might be for expediting the process to less than a month. Do you really need it that soon?

Do your homework and try to have everything ready and correct the first time you apply. The easier you make their job, the faster it will move. If you argue, cause problems or up get into someone's face that makes it tougher for yourself.
 
You are putting a water line under someone else's property, and taking a LOT of liability. I agree, do it the right way, if something goofs up and you have a derailment due to erosion, you are in big time trouble.

I work for the pipeline companies a lot, they generally will work with you if you are upfront.
 
How close is your nearest neighbors well on that side of the tracks? I think I would work out a deal with him to run off his well. Anyone could dig the line from his well to your place if no railroad involved.
 
I'm with Frankinfl. How could you go wrong in pushing something thru your existing pipe, even if it isn't water?
 
(quoted from post at 17:51:53 07/23/18) not so much the rail road, had a buddy that was an contractor and he hit and broke fiber optic, he was 3' from the locate, they charged him $75,000 per minute until it was repaired, he went out of business.
Click to expand...

If you get nothing else out of your post, best you heed this warning and talk to the fiber guys first. $75K/minute is cheap. You're facing bankruptcy and loss of your farm, and that's the mild version.
 
I had a water line I just put a reducer on so the small end was on the old steel line put a hose barb in the other end with Black plastic water line and a hose clamp pulled it through with the old steel line. The reducer pushed the dirt out enough for the new plastic to come through. This was about 50 feet . Dad had one they did the same thing with in the winter time when the old steel pipe rusted out.
You will need a guy to keep the plastic from balling up as it is pulled through.
As for dealing with the RR that will be your call.
 
There is a reason the phrase "getting railroaded" came to be. They are the almighty power, better do as they say.
 
I should clarify, I have no intention of doing anything without the railroad's permission and don't plan on doing any digging around that fiber optic line. I'm just looking for advice and knowledge on what to expect from the railroad's end and hoping maybe they give farmers a bit of a helping hand. Also, I would hope they would be eager to help fix a kind that is currently pouring water under their rail bed, since that would be on their interest too prevent track damage and derailment. Don't worry, I'm not trying to do anything behind their back, host trying to figure out what to expect so I'm not blind sided by them. I'm going to call the guy in charge of their underground utilities today, so I'll update everyone what they say. Hopefully I can get to the leak to repair it without getting to these point of dealing with CSX, as they let the local company handle all easements for maintenance and repair, but csx must be involved for new line install.

Hurst
 
This is something not to try to go cheap on.All things considered you need to hire a professional company that is bonded and insured to bore under the RR track.Most likely they will have worked with CSX before and CSX will be comfortable with them doing the job and may not be with you doing it.And then the matter of the fiber optic line you're totally out of your league doing this on your own one miscue could send you into bankruptcy.
 
Or better yet dig another well on that side of the tracks always good to have backup water.I have both well and spring water lines and have used each when the other was out several times.
 
I guess I would at least cut into the line and install a shut off valve before the tracks and turn it on and off as I needed it. That's a lot of water your pouring out.
 
Technically, replacing a section of line would not be a "new installation."

But there are companies out there that can do amazing things with those ditch witch boring machines. A contractor is installing new water lines down the main road into town with one of those Ditch Witches. Instead of tearing up everyones' driveways and yards, they only have a hole every few hundred feet in an easy-to-access, easy-to-repair area.
 
Barnyard ...... great advice. Up here the process is called directional drilling and/or hydrovac. The"drilling" unit uses water to bore the hole and then the
equipment follows with the pipe somehow ...... . with no surface disruption. Going to need two access openings though, one at each end of the patch I would
guess to tie in the bypass. Not sure if I missed something in the post but I wonder how deep this pipe is? Up here it would probably be at least six feet, so
below the winter frost line.
 
Hurst ...... where abouts are you located? I'm just curious more than anything. How deep is the water line?
 
We're located in Central Kentucky,so our required burial is 30 inches. The pipe is around 4-5ft (4 ft at the edges of the rail bed and the private crossing, 5ft in the center of the track according to the line locator). I talked to the guy at RJ Corman who operates on the track this morning, and he is going to be here Thursday to look at what I have. He said basically as long as I don't dig under the tracks, no one is going to bother me about where I dig by hand to fix it. I'm still going to wait until someone comes and tells me exactly where I cannot dig past before I get to digging any closer. If it involves anything digging related under the tra k (boring) then I have to deal with the big boys at CSX which I doubt will be as helpful as the local guys. They did run a new main i could tie into on that side of the track, but that is a $1000 meter install for a 1" meter (largest they allow) and probably a week or better to get it done plus however long it takes me to get the ditchwitch fired up to dig to the nearest line and tie in. Definitely high on the resolution list at this point, but that leaves the other line that crosses the railroad by town (line straight off of town's meter) a ticking time bomb under the tracks as well.

Hurst
 
Well, good luck with whatever happens and don't forget to report into the YT advisory board to let us know and to certify what you are doing ..... ha !!!
 
(quoted from post at 20:51:53 07/23/18) not so much the rail road, had a buddy that was an contractor and he hit and broke fiber optic, he was 3' from the locate, they charged him $75,000 per minute until it was repaired, he went out of business.
Click to expand...

Ah! What a difference a foot makes. Miss Dig marks the lines and you have to hand dig (by law) within 4' of their markings.

Recently I was putting a fence starting from the corner of my house where the gas meter is and running parallel to where the gas supply line was for about 20'. I had the gas installed several years ago and have pix and measurements exactly where they pulled the line with a plow. I knew I was ok but called Miss Dig anyway. Miss Dig notified about a dozen utilities. Most just replied by email that they had nothing in the area. ATT sent a guy out who wrote in paint on the grass "none" and took a picture of it. Gas company DID come out and mark the line, exactly where I knew it was. Guy looked at my fence line and measured. I was 3'6" from his markings where I was going to auger a post. He kind of grimaced and informed me of the 4' law. I told him that the line was fairly new and I was there when they pulled it and his markings were spot on. (The gas company winds a wire around their line and attaches it at the meter. Guy hooks onto this wire where it comes out of the ground with a generator of some kind and walks the line with a detector.) He kind of winked when I said "I'll be sure to hand dig that post". Next day, post went in and the fence is up. (Hand dug, of course :wink: )
 
Good to hear your approach. My advice comes from having dealt with a similar problem. If your line is 4-5' below grade, I bet you'll find the fiber is just above as it was likely installed with a cable plow. The utility should tell you to hand dig anything within the easement.
 
At our old house, electric utility was installing a new underground main line as the old line/transformers were overloaded. After Miss Dig marked EVERY house where the gas or water lines crossed, a guy came with a vacuum truck, dug up the sod at the marks and sucked the dirt out down to expose the crossing line. They then used a boring machine to push a "pulling" pipe. Guy would walk the line with a meter that would show how close they were getting to a water/gas line and then direct the boring head (it had "fins" on it that were adjustable). I watched as the head would pass underneath these lines by about 6" sometimes. They then attached an adapter to about 6" black plastic conduit (cut with a special rig and looked like heat shrunk around the adapter). Watching the boring rig pull this through the ground at least 500' was amazing.
 
That"s called directional boring. Few year ago a nearby lake got a sewer system. To connect the two sides, they bored almost a quarter mile, under the lake, in the winter. That way, the guy monitoring the boring head could walk on the ice as it moved along.

I used directional boring to go under a twp road for a culvert installation. 60 feet, 12 inch steel pipe, boring cost $1500. Small head goes first, then they attached a 14 inch head with a ring beyond...to pull the 12 inch pipe thru as it bored the hole larger on the return run.
 
I worked as a heavy equipment field mechanic for 15 years for a construction company that did underground utilities. Do not trust those people who mark where fiber optic, and other utilities are. We were out digging a 16" wide x 12' deep trench for underground utilities until the trencher operator hit a 60" water main that marked 6' off from where it actually was. They tried to blame our trencher operator for it, but the locating company was the one who messed up, then got "the bill" for not marking the water main properly, and a bill for the repairs needed on the 60" water main in the DFW area.
 
As others have said, directional boring. Have them put in a 2" or bigger PVC sleeve, then put your water line in the sleeve.
 
JML, your local gas company should not be wrapping their
tracer wire around the polyethylene (plastic) gas line, that?s a
no no. If lightning hits the ground or a near by tree then it runs
the tracer wire and burns a hole or multiple holes through the
gas line, resulting in gas leak. Tracer wire should have been
separated from the gas line, installed in the same ditch line
but not making contact with the pipe. If you saw wire wrapped
around pipe when installed and you have a lightening hit close
to your home you better use your nose and call them to
request a leak survey
 
CSX Corporate Headquarters
500 Water Street, 15th Floor
Jacksonville, FL 32202
904-359-3200

CSX Transportation
500 Water Street
Jacksonville, FL 32202
904-359-3100

Last resort
Report a Railroad Emergency: 1-800-232-0144
Any issue or incident that risks the safety of any person should be reported immediately. Be prepared to tell us your name, location and what you observed.
 
Met with the Sprint guy (they own the Fiber Optic, which apparently is the main line between Louisville and Lexington), and he located that for me. He told me the depth was 6' and a few inches under the railroad, which means it is a good 2 feet under my water line running through there. So all I am waiting on is the see if the railroad company will allow me to dig closer to the bed or if they are going to require me to apply to bore a new sleeve under the railbed. I am still considering trying to dig out the line on my property on both sides with a pretty good size hole and thread on new Sch 80 galvanized line and pulling it in as I pull out the old. Only thing I worry about with that is the old line breaking in half somewhere along the pull. I'll see what the railroad guy thinks of that when he gets here. He seemed pretty easy to work with. I did just fill out a contract to get a new water meter installed on this side of the track (they brought a new main a few years back just on the other side of the road from our property line, and the water is about 1/3 the price of the other meter!) and that should take 2 weeks at the longest to get a meter installed, plus inspection once I get the line run to where I'm tee-ing it in. This whole dealing with utilities and the railroad is enough to make a fulltime job out of. It still blows my mind that a railroad company comes in and leaves your land basically "locked" from all city utilities, and yet they expect a farmer to pay for a service to be brought under or over their railroad at their expense while they take home huge profits each year. Something just isn't right about that... I'll update when I meet with the railroad contact hopefully Thursday.

Hurst
 
Ask Sprint how the fiber optic cable was installed 2 feet under your waterline. Was it bored or hand dug under your line? If it was installed with a cable plow they must have sliced through your waterline.

Its a long shot, but if you ask nicely, Sprint might repair a leak directly over their cable. At this point you won't loose much by asking.
 
The guy didn't have anything about installation details in his book, but it was installed in 1986, so I doubt the leak has anything to do with it. I do lose signal on the pipe locator my leak detector guy uses in the area within about 5-10 feet on either side of the fiber optic line, but that may be noise from that line, as it picks the signal right back up and the depths start reading accurately once I am away from it. If I had to guess, the probably bored the line, as that is how most of them are installed around here and I don't see the railroad being too happy about a 7ft deep trench within 10ft of their railway. But then again, a lot has changed since 1986. At 6ft deep, if they did any type of trench, I'd imagine they got very lucky and found it before they got too carried away with their machine and just ran it under. Dad was here when that was installed and has no recollection of repairing a water line or gas line by the railroad, and we have another crossing at a different drive that has both water and gas.

Hurst
 
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