- Thread starter jon f mn
- Start date
We have a electric tankless heater in the workshop, works ok for washing hands, but doesn't get the water really hot. And there is no way it could supply enough hot water for my pressure washer. I want to say it has a 50 amp breaker for it, but it might only be 40 amps, can't remember. If you only use hot water intermittently it's probably worth the effort, but if you have a large volume of hot water being used I'm not sure it's worth it...
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
We researched it a few years ago, found some reasons not too. First, we have pretty bad water, even with a softener I was concerned. second, the vent has to be more that 8 or 10 feet from any other, and that was going to be a problem. Best if they can be on an outside wall and 10 feet from any other gas vent. One of our friends installed one 15 years ago and for some reason they were frustrated with it and installed a small electric in series downstream, to give them a more consistent supply of hot water. We have 2 electrics, one 50 gal and a 2 1/2 gal 70 feet away under the second bathroom, in series, works great.
We have had an electric tankless for going on 10 years now. I will never go back. Need to note that we set the temp control to 115 degrees F. We run pure hot to shower with and only use 45 gallons per day average total water use throughout the year. Although the unit requires 2 60 amp breakers the electric bill reduced slightly after switching from the conventional tank heater. One downside is when electric goes out my 6500 Honda Generator will not do it. I will consider a propane powered one when this one needs replaced.
Kansasredneck
Member
Father in law went tankless electric. Lights dim? Nope, out completely. Blew the fuse on the transformer. Second try, blew the transformer. The gas ones are great from all I've heard and seen. Had one in Germany when I was stationed there. Endless supply, could take a hot shower all day!
grandpa Love
Well-known Member
Neighbor has one. Hard water was an issue real quick. About a year and it was stopped up. Takes a long time to fill a tank up with deposits.
Jon are you on well water???? The reason I am asking is the flow changes as the pressure drops until the pump kicks back on. My sister had one that would freeze you when you started a show and was scald you by the time you where done. Some one recommended installing a flow regulator on the water heater. I do not know it that would work.
Also I researched them pretty hard a few years ago. The energy saving they quote is kind of dubious. If you use much hot water they save nothing over a conventional water heater. Where they save is if you use little hot water. So they save if they are on say a guest bathroom but not much if they are supplying the kitchen/washer.
To me it took a really simple thing, electric water heater, and made it complicated for little to no savings. Electric water heaters have not changed much for years. Just better insulation is about it. Two elements and two thermostats and that is it. Just about anyone can work on one. The tank less ones I looked at all had circuit boards and such in them. I think over a 10-15 year period they will have a lot more maintenance.
Also I researched them pretty hard a few years ago. The energy saving they quote is kind of dubious. If you use much hot water they save nothing over a conventional water heater. Where they save is if you use little hot water. So they save if they are on say a guest bathroom but not much if they are supplying the kitchen/washer.
To me it took a really simple thing, electric water heater, and made it complicated for little to no savings. Electric water heaters have not changed much for years. Just better insulation is about it. Two elements and two thermostats and that is it. Just about anyone can work on one. The tank less ones I looked at all had circuit boards and such in them. I think over a 10-15 year period they will have a lot more maintenance.
ivan in michigan
Member
I bought one when we were build our house here. It worked very well for a couple of years then the temp would go from hot to cold. I found out we had a lot of iron in the water and it was getting coated up. It was an LP one and would do the whole house. I gave it to my BIL for his shop and he ran something thru it and cleaned it out. He used it for many years before it quit working
Jon, I bought a propane tank less from Menards, Aberdeen SD about 8-9 years ago. Installed it myself and worked great. Electric is not recommended much north of Kansas if I IIRC. Did have a speck of something in a tube that supplied propane to the pilot igniter so sometimes it took several tries to light. Removed the tube and cleaned with carb cleaner and worked fine. Sold the house 4 years ago and was still working fine.
coonie minnie
Well-known Member
I have a gas one in the milking parlor... endless scalding hot water. No maintenence issues. Been in at least 10 years.
Flannelman
Member
I looked at electric tankless for a friend when their 40gal that served their bathrooms lost an element. We would have had to upgrade the service to the house. The tankless unit would have needed 100amps just to run it. We ended up putting in a 60gal electric that had a smart sensor. It monitored demand times and ramped the temp up prior to peak usage then let it fall to a preset base number for the reset of the day. They have way more usable hot water and its saved them enough money that its paying off over about 6yrs.
We had a 52 gallon and an 80 on our REA overnight half-price storage program...switched it to a Marathon (fiberglas?) 80 gallon a few years ago, also on the storage program. Works fine. Dunno about the style you"re considering. I do have my doubts about them re keeping up.
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
No experience with electric, but installed a nat gas heater for a friend a couple years ago.
It made endless hot water as promised, but if trying to just mix a little hot would not work. It takes a minimum flow for the heater to come on.
So, in the summer when just a little hot was needed for a warm shower, there was no happy medium, either too hot or cold. And the dish washer did not flow enough to meet the flow minimum, so cold water was going there.
There was also a demanding maintenance schedule. Acid cleaning when calcium deposits accumulated, recommended this be done annually.
They since sold the house, but I cannot recommend one based on the minimum flow issue and the maintenance schedule.
I suspect the electric would have the same issues, plus the expense of high amp wiring.
It made endless hot water as promised, but if trying to just mix a little hot would not work. It takes a minimum flow for the heater to come on.
So, in the summer when just a little hot was needed for a warm shower, there was no happy medium, either too hot or cold. And the dish washer did not flow enough to meet the flow minimum, so cold water was going there.
There was also a demanding maintenance schedule. Acid cleaning when calcium deposits accumulated, recommended this be done annually.
They since sold the house, but I cannot recommend one based on the minimum flow issue and the maintenance schedule.
I suspect the electric would have the same issues, plus the expense of high amp wiring.
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
I went with a Marathon fiberglass about 5 years ago. Also installed 2 others, all have functioned perfectly.
No ferrous metal in contact with water, everything fiberglass, brass, or stainless.
Uses standard elements and thermostats, lifetime tank guarantee.
It cost more for the initial investment, but as I see it, a once and done expense.
No ferrous metal in contact with water, everything fiberglass, brass, or stainless.
Uses standard elements and thermostats, lifetime tank guarantee.
It cost more for the initial investment, but as I see it, a once and done expense.
kcm.MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- NW Minnesota
Here's one more vote against. Granted, we have the next-to-smallest electric tankless you can buy, but it only feeds one sink. In wintertime, sometimes it's a struggle to get water much above lukewarm! As others have mentioned, there is also a minimum water flow before it will kick on. This little thing works pretty good in the Summer though.
Some time this year, I plan on replacing the tankless with a small tank heater for that sink. With the tankless, we end up about tripling our water usage, mostly from trying to find that sweet spot for getting hot water....or warm, if it's winter.
Also, gotta read the warranty real close! Many manufacturers WILL NOT WARRANTY the units unless they are professionally installed!
Some time this year, I plan on replacing the tankless with a small tank heater for that sink. With the tankless, we end up about tripling our water usage, mostly from trying to find that sweet spot for getting hot water....or warm, if it's winter.
Also, gotta read the warranty real close! Many manufacturers WILL NOT WARRANTY the units unless they are professionally installed!
Oliver 500 Wa
Member
Son's house came with one when he bought it. Pretty much the same as above. The other thing that happens is after you shut off the hot water you have to wait ~5 seconds before you turn it back on or else the burner will not re-start and pretty quick the water is cold. He's pretty fed up with it and will be happy when it dies and he can install a regular water heater.
I use the EZ Tankless model 202 exclusively. They can be set up for LP or natural gas. They have adjustment for maximum temp from 38-51C. There is also a flow regulator that can reduce the flow of water through the unit. Price for the unit is about $350 delivered, and setup should run another 200 by a decent plumber.
For almost all tankless units, getting it setup right after install is a bit tricky. It's common that the unit will shut down the heater element if the cold water side is run wide open. In some cases, this will happen because the flow sensor for the hot side will not stay on. The trick is to REDUCE the flow rate and temp at the tankless unit so that changes in the cold side won't affect the hot side. It's counter-intuitive, but that's the way it works best. I typically set the flow to half way, and the temp to 39-40C.
I've installed 4 unit so far, and the one that doesn't work right is on a off-grid install with about 3GPM flow at 12-15PSI. I can get enough flow, or enough pressure, but not both. In this corner case, using a LP tank type water heater was best.
I have no experience with the AC heater systems.
For almost all tankless units, getting it setup right after install is a bit tricky. It's common that the unit will shut down the heater element if the cold water side is run wide open. In some cases, this will happen because the flow sensor for the hot side will not stay on. The trick is to REDUCE the flow rate and temp at the tankless unit so that changes in the cold side won't affect the hot side. It's counter-intuitive, but that's the way it works best. I typically set the flow to half way, and the temp to 39-40C.
I've installed 4 unit so far, and the one that doesn't work right is on a off-grid install with about 3GPM flow at 12-15PSI. I can get enough flow, or enough pressure, but not both. In this corner case, using a LP tank type water heater was best.
I have no experience with the AC heater systems.
Here are some thoughts
1) why go tankless--you wait too long for hot water--A tankless doesn't start making hot water till you turn on the faucet.
2) It saves money--see JD's answer below
3) Not enough room to install one--I don't know of a home design today that isn't planned for a hot water tank.
1) why go tankless--you wait too long for hot water--A tankless doesn't start making hot water till you turn on the faucet.
2) It saves money--see JD's answer below
3) Not enough room to install one--I don't know of a home design today that isn't planned for a hot water tank.
My house was built in 2007 and I purchased it in 2011. It has a gas fired tankless heater and supplies all the hot water I want.
The tankless water heaters use a LOT of energy when you are heating water, and none when you aren't. I think that a large tankless like mine is rated at nearly 200,000 Btu while a tank type heater may be rated at 30,000 to 40,000. As others have said, they require a minimum flow to operate. The only time this is an issue for me is when I want to run a trickle of warm water while shaving.
I have a water softener, so mineral build up isn't a problem. After living in my house for five years, I flushed the heater with vinegar last year. I found only a few small specks of scale.
My heater is located in the garage. I like having a small wall hung unit rather than a large tank.
The tankless water heaters use a LOT of energy when you are heating water, and none when you aren't. I think that a large tankless like mine is rated at nearly 200,000 Btu while a tank type heater may be rated at 30,000 to 40,000. As others have said, they require a minimum flow to operate. The only time this is an issue for me is when I want to run a trickle of warm water while shaving.
I have a water softener, so mineral build up isn't a problem. After living in my house for five years, I flushed the heater with vinegar last year. I found only a few small specks of scale.
My heater is located in the garage. I like having a small wall hung unit rather than a large tank.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
. If electric and the power is time of use , a tankless will cost more energy wise vs a tank heater on a timer .
If comparing gas if you have kids that will stand in the shower until all the hot water is used . The kids will use more water and gas with a tankless .
How hard is the water and is there a softener .
If comparing gas if you have kids that will stand in the shower until all the hot water is used . The kids will use more water and gas with a tankless .
How hard is the water and is there a softener .
Latest Menards flyer an LP tankless (which would be my only choice not a electric) was a little over $ 1,000 where I can get a 50 gal. electric or LP for around $ 300 to 400.
That pretty much makes me forget about "wanting" one. I am about 1/2 tempted to buy a new electric one and not hook it up until mine completely fails. Looks like they still sell one model that seems to be like my older one. Most of the new ones have some sort of digital read out extra electronics to fail.
That pretty much makes me forget about "wanting" one. I am about 1/2 tempted to buy a new electric one and not hook it up until mine completely fails. Looks like they still sell one model that seems to be like my older one. Most of the new ones have some sort of digital read out extra electronics to fail.
fixerupper
Well-known Member
The only experience I have is with a cheap small under sink one we put in the shop. I sure wouldn't want to use that thing for a shower, as others have said. It's electric and doesn't switch on until there is a certain amount of flow running through it. There is a throttle valve in it to control the amount of water running through to control the temp but it's very finicky at best. The best thing I found to do is turn the faucet wide open to kick the heater in and use whatever temperature water that comes out to wash the hands with. I'm sure the more expensive whole house heaters are better regulated. Maye not?
1948CaseVAI
Well-known Member
This is a forum populated by successful plumbers:
https://www.ridgidforum.com/
Join for free then search for "tankless." I just read the phrase "thankless tankless" on there... I have followed plumbing forums for years and would avoid tankless myself but your hot water needs are likely different than mine, and you may have more money (although regular water heaters are over $900 installed now, thanks to the stupid EPA regulations).
Oh - in general I love Menards, but watch brands there and only get a good national brand. Their house brands of most items suck.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
I like my NG rinnai tankless water heater....
Its a big learing curve once you change over to one.
The bad
Yes they will shut off if flow is low.
No power no hot water the igniter needs power.
The Good
If you get one with a adjustable wall mounted thermostat (the only way to go) you can adjust the temp to your needs in seconds just remember to adjust it back down when you take a shower it will cut off because of low water flow.. I keep mine on 125deg no low water flow issues when I need HOT Hot water crank it up to 140.
Its on a out side wall so no water damage from a tank leak and you can work on it EZ.
My big reason to go with one was I wanted NG to my shop I kept getting promises to run a line to the shop but they never showed up. When I went to the NG place to look at a tankless one of the stipulations was to run a NG line to my shop off the house not a separate line from the street with a meter on the shop... The plan went into action all I had to do was dig the trench for the line they laid the pipe hooked it up I had to buy the materials ($700) no labor..
Originally mine did not come with a adjustable thermostat and I did not like it. When I complained they came out and replaced it with an adjustable thermostat no charge...
My aunt has a propane tankless she is not thrilled with it BUT she was not thrilled with two hot water heaters on each end of the house either are what it cost her to replace the floors and kitchen counters when the one in the kitchen let go... They added some kind of circulation pump to solve it taking so long for hot water to get to the bath. He complaint sometimes the heater comes on by itself momentary... She had a plumber install it I don't think they KNOW what they are doing other than sale her more chit... They are addicted to propane NG is right in front of her house... Why they stay with propane they own a BIG garage that works on propane trucks and get a deal on propane.... I would work on the trucks and burn NG myself...
AS we grow older I like the fact its out of the house and hope I am done with replacing hot water heaters for the rest of my life...
I remodeled a house I owned in 2013 mainly because a water heater leaked and fudged up the floors it cost me big time. I stayed with a standard electric heater BUT it went outside !!!
Crazy Horse
Well-known Member
Man, asking a question like this is like deciding by flipping a coin. How in the world would you make a decision with the comments and replies all over the map? So a guy ends up more confused and undecided than when he started I guess.
CAUTION!!!
Setting water temperature too low can and will get you legioneer's disease. Be sure to look up the lowest safe temperature you can safely run. A local hospital here ended up having several patients die and more sick due to lowering the hot water temperature.
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
Friend of mine had an electric one in. After a year of problems. It is now in the scrap pile. He went back to old style. I guess it all counts on how good you'r luck is. I know another guy he loves his.
travis miranowski
Member
Looks like a lot of negative comments on them, but we live just south of Minneapolis and I bought one at Menards two years ago when they went on sale for 1,000.00 With the 11% rebate it was less than $900.00 AND on top of that out gas company gave us a rebate check for $350.00. I installed it myself so ad on about another $100 in plumbing supplies the grand total was about $650. Just as cheap as a tank style. Here is my opinion, it takes about 8-10 seconds to get hot water when the faucet is on and when the power goes out we have no hot water. But they are the only faults I can find. (This isn't 1940, I don't need a big vat of hot water and the power rarely goes out) I am no longer keeping a vat of water hot when I am not using it, they are proven to last twice as long, (We will see!), and I DO see a difference on my bill. I live in town with a constant water pressure and clean water so as for someone in the country with a well I cannot say if they would work as well.
Crazy Horse
Well-known Member
One of the posts below mentioned the possibility of Legionaires disease maybe resulting from hot water systems where the storage temp was too low. I'm a bit of a Doubting Thomas guy so I checked it out. Sounds like the real meal deal and a possibility ...... I suggest everyone read this below regardless of what kind of system you have .....
A MUST READ on hot water storage
A MUST READ on hot water storage
FYI - The EZ Tankless 202 system relies on 2 D cell batts for ignition. If you have gas, and water pressure, you have hot water. Or, one could opt for the big unit, providing 165k BTUs/hr. That will heat 50F incoming water to over 100F at 5GPM, which is a lot of water. But - you need AC to ignite it.
For folks who travel the world, the tank water heater is almost dead worldwide, except for parts of Mexico in cities and the US. Of course, some large hotels, and other residential high density areas they still use tank heaters, but the majority of the world uses tankless now. At my cabin, I would never have a LP tank water heater. I'm sure my LP use would double over the tankless usage.
For those installations where the hot water flow declines enough to stop the heating, one trick I've found that helps is for the cold supply to feed in a long straight line pipe about 3-4', directly to the tankless cold water inlet, with the tap of the Tee fitting for the remaining cold water come off at 90deg fitting. I know it's a small thing, but water flow hydrodynamics can make a difference. In most cases, the tap for the feed to the tankless unit is a 90deg fitting, to a flex line, with reduced inside diameter, which restricts flow rapidly in the event the cold water tap is turned on to regulate.
For folks who travel the world, the tank water heater is almost dead worldwide, except for parts of Mexico in cities and the US. Of course, some large hotels, and other residential high density areas they still use tank heaters, but the majority of the world uses tankless now. At my cabin, I would never have a LP tank water heater. I'm sure my LP use would double over the tankless usage.
For those installations where the hot water flow declines enough to stop the heating, one trick I've found that helps is for the cold supply to feed in a long straight line pipe about 3-4', directly to the tankless cold water inlet, with the tap of the Tee fitting for the remaining cold water come off at 90deg fitting. I know it's a small thing, but water flow hydrodynamics can make a difference. In most cases, the tap for the feed to the tankless unit is a 90deg fitting, to a flex line, with reduced inside diameter, which restricts flow rapidly in the event the cold water tap is turned on to regulate.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Tankless units vary . Some use copper heat exchangers . Some condensing use dipper primary and stainless secondary . Westinghouse and Navian are the only two that I could find with both the primary and secondary heat exchangers made of Stainless steel.
Our pool heater’s copper heat exchanger failed after 12 years of use . Given the price of a dedicated pool heater . I am wondering if a 199,000btu all stainless tankless LP condensing tankless would heat the pool . Could be too low gpm through the heat exchangers with just a high volume/low pressure pool pump.
Bill in IL
Well-known Member
If you use hot water in your house on a daily basis then it's probably not worth it.
I would never have one unless I had a mini tank water heater in-line with the tankless to make up for the slugs of cold water as you turn on and off water at the faucet therefore stopping and starting the burner.
Maintenance to keep the internal heat exchanger clean is another problem.
I would never have one unless I had a mini tank water heater in-line with the tankless to make up for the slugs of cold water as you turn on and off water at the faucet therefore stopping and starting the burner.
Maintenance to keep the internal heat exchanger clean is another problem.
Apparently there are a lot of tankless water heaters that are not installed right or at least people have not read the manual. In have an electric 150amp. three 50 amp circuits,if you house is wired for 150 amp do not buy one. I had a gas one and I liked it, except it back drafted when the furnace came on and it froze the heat exchanger. The new ones have a freeze proof setting that turns the heater on if it gets too cold. If the hot water will not hold a steady temperature you need to slow the intake water,just turn the shut off valve till it works for you. I guess it has been 15 years without a tank.
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