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Still Not Charging - I'm at Wits End

R

RTR

Well-known Member
After tracing wiring, repairing connections where needed, installing (2) different new 12 volt regulators, and going through the generator troubleshooting flowchart several times; I still can't get the IH 424 to charge. It has a 12 volt generator system with the 3 prong voltage regulator. I do just as the flowchart says and make it all the way to the end where I have to ground the field AND jumper the bat and gen terminals before it will turn off the "amp" dummy light on the dash. I've tried (2) new voltage regulators and get same results with both. The result is that the flow chart procedure tells me the regulator(s) is bad. Not likely that both a Standard Motor Products and a Napa brand part are both bad.

I can take a video or pictures of anything if you need it.

PLEASE HELP.
 
Is it charging? what is the voltage from + bat terminal on battery to - bat terminal on battery while running at 3/4 throttle? This is a classic A circuit generator. The charge light is shown branching off of the main (thicker) wire going to the starter solenoid. It appears to be placed between the gen output, and the connection block. I think a real amp gauge in the dash or on a bracket is more valuable than a light. Or a volt meter. Jim.
This is the diagram for it.
 
No!! the polarizing on an A circuit system is from Bat to Arm across the regulator terminals. The field is connected to Arm inside and grounded in the regulator. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 10:42:36 01/23/18) No!! the polarizing on an A circuit system is from Bat to Arm across the regulator terminals. The field is connected to Arm inside and grounded in the regulator. Jim
Click to expand...

All of that has been done guys per this checklist. I can double check voltages at battery as I didn't check them and was relying solely on the light.
9466.jpg
 
Hi
I'm confused by what you are saying, it almost sounds to me like you have an alternator Not an old school generator(dynamo). if you have an alternator you may have a miss match of parts somewhere or modifications. I know years ago I worked on a german 1830 JD it had an external regulator type alternator that quit and JD no longer service.

The "update kit" was a new internal regulator alternator and an instruction sheet of how to cut and loop wires at the old style voltage regulator. Somebody could of gone from an old school generator to the alternator to, you can just join wires and change the battery cables from Pos ground to neg ground to convert that to if thats how it was wired originally, this was just an example don't follow it as advice.

The pictures would really help with what you got and are working with if you could please post them. It's an older 70's European style tractor like a baby 574 IH that has maybe been modified in the electrical department before you got it, or maybe had different electrics for another market.

Regards Robert
 

Robert.....this is a bone stock 424 utility gas that someone cut a few wires near the starter because the old key switch and start button failed on them.....so they went near starter and hooked up a new switch. I've sorted all that out and have put it back original......at least I think I have. It still isn't charging. It has the stock 12 volt generator setup with the dash light style amp gauge. I did reference the wiring diagram jim posted.
 
When I first posted none of the other replies showed up it looked like nobody had replied to you. This is why I quit doing a load of online fixing
and will quit all of it in the end. so much of this stuff is a pain in the butt trying to figure it out without actually seeing it, or knowing
everything thats done or happened before.

Hopefully you get lucky with it soon, I just spent 1/2 hour on the phone tonight starting at 10.10 pm ! trying to help a guy that wanted free shop advice
and not pay anybody at the start. He's gonna pay me mileage and shop rates now to drive out there and fix it properly. And do all the correct no
guessing settings he needs for it to work first time without wasting 3 days of his time. Then still not have it working and need to call me out
anyway.
Regards Robert
 
Are the generator and regulator grounded? (Sometimes it's possible for paint to insulate such components from chassis ground).

Start it, run at half-throttle and accurately measure the voltages at the generator's "A" and "F" terminals and report back.
 
I?d be installing a new OEM wiring harness and OEM ignition switch if you haven?t already done so.
 
(quoted from post at 17:12:58 01/23/18) I see you ran the flowchart so try my Troubleshooting Procedure.



http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=jd&th=458743

John T
John Ts Charging Troubleshooting
Click to expand...

I will try your troubleshooter next. My only option. I do have the original style switches now. Everything has been put back like it came from factory. I am using the original wiring harness that I had to repair in a few places but it should be ok as everything else checks out ok and works.
 

With a one wire alternator he loses the charge light function

Get a Delco 3 wire, #2 loop to output, connect generator end of indicator lamp to #1 and it should be good to go.
 
Big deal I'd rather have a non working Idiot Light than a non charging alternator/charging system that I spent a ton of money on,can buy a $10 meter to tell if its charging.
 
(quoted from post at 19:43:42 01/23/18) Big deal I'd rather have a non working Idiot Light than a non charging alternator/charging system that I spent a ton of money on,can buy a $10 meter to tell if its charging.
Click to expand...

I just want it to be right and working. Keeping the generator system isn't a bad deal if I can get it to work. On the contrary, I could sell the 12 volt generator (tests good) for around $100, return the voltage regulator ($92), purchase a delco 3-wire alternator ($45), factory alternator conversion brackets ($40) and be money ahead. I would just rather keep everything original but if I can't figure it out it will get yanked off there!
 
With 3 wire alternator he has both a working indicator light and a reliable charging system. He already has the indicator light and with one simple connection he can continue to use it.
 
I would not be a bit surprised if they are both bad. I once had to buy five regulators for a 65 Ford to a get a good one.
 
Pretty simple to check. You have a Delco 1100409 or 1100422 generator, correct? Has to terminals marked "F" and "A." Just short out the "F" terminal to ground. When doing this - you should have full charge coming from the "A" terminal. If not, the generator is bad.

Should be able to make 25 amps @ 14 volts at full engine speed.
 
(quoted from post at 20:45:57 01/23/18) Pretty simple to check. You have a Delco 1100409 or 1100422 generator, correct? Has to terminals marked "F" and "A." Just short out the "F" terminal to ground. When doing this - you should have full charge coming from the "A" terminal. If not, the generator is bad.

Should be able to make 25 amps @ 14 volts at full engine speed.
Click to expand...

Read through that flow chart I used on page 1 of this thread. I did just that and got no charge. I then left it grounded and jumpers the Arm and Batt terminals and then the generator was charging then.
 
What model # generator do you have? The OEM Delco gets full fielded by grounding the field terminal. Do you have something
NOT OEM?
 
(quoted from post at 16:50:38 01/23/18)
(quoted from post at 20:45:57 01/23/18) Pretty simple to check. You have a Delco 1100409 or 1100422 generator, correct? Has to terminals marked "F" and "A." Just short out the "F" terminal to ground. When doing this - you should have full charge coming from the "A" terminal. If not, the generator is bad.

Should be able to make 25 amps @ 14 volts at full engine speed.
Click to expand...

Read through that flow chart I used on page 1 of this thread. I did just that and got no charge. I then left it grounded and jumpers the Arm and Batt terminals and then the generator was charging then.
Click to expand...
our explanation is exactly that of item 6 in Johns Test Procedure with whats wrong " 6. If she still dont charge, leave Field grounded and jump a wire across from the VR"s BAT and ARM terminals (jump by passes the cutout relay) and see if she charges. If then but not otherwise, the VR"s cutout relay isnt working correct (maybe points burned/carboned/resistive) " ..
 
IFFFFFFF the Generator itself is properly grounded,,,,,,,,and IFFFFFFFFFFF all else is properly wired,,,,,,,,,,,,and IFFFFFFFFFFFF you dead ground the Gennys FLD post (by passes VR's charging control function and sets the genny for max charge) and IFFFFFFFFFFFFFF you by pass the VR's Cutout Relay (just in case its bad and not closing) by jumping BAT over to ARM and theres still no charge,,,,,,,,,,,, theres a good chance the Genny itself and not the VR is the cause of no charge. I assume you polarized the genny before start up ??? and all is at the correct matching polarity??? and the Ammeter is working and properly wired in series effectively between the VR's BAT terminal the hot ungrounded battery post ????

If you put a voltmeter on the battery if its a full charged 12 volt it would read around 12.6 volts (half that if 6 volt) and when running at fast RPM if the charging system is good it should eventually rise to at least 13 up to near 14 volts EVEN IF THE AMMTER WERE BAD provided theres still a good circuit from battery to genny

Did you try my Motor tests ???

8. MOTOR TEST. You can Motor test the Gen. If its grounded and you remove the belt and apply hot battery voltage direct to its ARM Post, it should motor n run well (Armature n Brushes and Commutator and bushings likely okay). Then if you ground the Field and it slows down some, the Fields probably good. If it passes both those tests, it should charge, and if not, it may be a wiring or battery or grounding problem.

John T
 
(quoted from post at 22:26:33 01/23/18) IFFFFFFF the Generator itself is properly grounded,,,,,,,,and IFFFFFFFFFFF all else is properly wired,,,,,,,,,,,,and IFFFFFFFFFFFF you dead ground the Gennys FLD post (by passes VR's charging control function and sets the genny for max charge) and IFFFFFFFFFFFFFF you by pass the VR's Cutout Relay (just in case its bad and not closing) by jumping BAT over to ARM and theres still no charge,,,,,,,,,,,, theres a good chance the Genny itself and not the VR is the cause of no charge. I assume you polarized the genny before start up ??? and all is at the correct matching polarity??? and the Ammeter is working and properly wired in series effectively between the VR's BAT terminal the hot ungrounded battery post ????

If you put a voltmeter on the battery if its a full charged 12 volt it would read around 12.6 volts (half that if 6 volt) and when running at fast RPM if the charging system is good it should eventually rise to at least 13 up to near 14 volts EVEN IF THE AMMTER WERE BAD provided theres still a good circuit from battery to genny

Did you try my Motor tests ???

8. MOTOR TEST. You can Motor test the Gen. If its grounded and you remove the belt and apply hot battery voltage direct to its ARM Post, it should motor n run well (Armature n Brushes and Commutator and bushings likely okay). Then if you ground the Field and it slows down some, the Fields probably good. If it passes both those tests, it should charge, and if not, it may be a wiring or battery or grounding problem.

John T
Click to expand...

I'll try this method but I've done what you said and it is pointing to a bad regulator. Well....I'm not buying another $75 dollar regulator just for it to say the same thing. Already tried 2 new ones. It shows charging afree i jumper the batt and ark posts with field grounded
 
Please make the simple test I previously mentioned, and tell us what the voltage readings are.

"Start it, run at half-throttle (do NOT ground "F" terminal or polarize "A" terminal) and accurately measure the voltages to chassis ground at the generator's "A" and "F" terminals."
 
I admire your determination,BTW one wire alternators are around $60 on ebay from DB Electric running 8 of them with no problems so far.So all I can say to all
you fellows that are so big on 3 wire alternators why can't you fellas tell this guy how to get his to work??????????
 
Bottom line is that if can not get indicator lamp to go out, then the cut out contacts are NOT closing, because in the final analysis, that lamp is tied across the cutout contacts. When those contacts close, the bulb has a short across it & thus zero voltage & current.
 
With the Arm terminal on gen disconnected, and the F terminal on the gen grounded, start the tractor and read the voltage on the Arm terminal at 1/2 throttle. If less than 12.8 volts, the full output of the generator's self exciting startup is not enough to close the cutout relay. The voltage regulator cutout relay is designed to only close when gen output raises to more than battery voltage. A generator with a faulty field circuit can charge when fully connected, but not have enough self excited output to latch the cutout. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 07:54:58 01/24/18) With the Arm terminal on gen disconnected, and the F terminal on the gen grounded, start the tractor and read the voltage on the Arm terminal at 1/2 throttle. If less than 12.8 volts, the full output of the generator's self exciting startup is not enough to close the cutout relay. The voltage regulator cutout relay is designed to only close when gen output raises to more than battery voltage. A generator with a faulty field circuit can charge when fully connected, but not have enough self excited output to latch the cutout. Jim
Click to expand...

Makes sense jim. THANK YOU....I feel like this is something I definitely need to check. I will be in touch with my findings tomorrow night! I actually have a rebuilt generator on a Farmall 140 of the same year to put on there and test. Don't you think they are the same generators being the 12 volt system?
 
Check the numbers, but likely. If not exact, the pulleys might be the only difference. Best of luck.
Pulling the cover off of one of the regulators can also make a contributing test. With it running and
not charging (cover off) push on the cutout relay contacts to push them together. If it takes off
charging, the issue may be the self exciting voltage. You could also put the Gen from the grief stricken
tractor on the other one. to see if it fails there. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 09:06:12 01/24/18) Check the numbers, but likely. If not exact, the pulleys might be the only difference. Best of luck.
Pulling the cover off of one of the regulators can also make a contributing test. With it running and
not charging (cover off) push on the cutout relay contacts to push them together. If it takes off
charging, the issue may be the self exciting voltage. You could also put the Gen from the grief stricken
tractor on the other one. to see if it fails there. Jim
Click to expand...

Ok sounds good.
 
For the sake of discussion you did the F terminal ground and it didn't work. Remove the belt, disconnect the A and F terminals, and using a heavy wire (jumper cables work well for this) apply the hot side of the battery to the A terminal. The generator should spin fast and clean like a motor. While motoring ground the F terminal. The generator should slow down but continue to spin. If this happens, the generator is ok. Now it's time to test the wires between the regulator and generator. DO NOT use an ohm meter. One fine hair will show a good connection but it will never carry enough current to work. Use a load like a headlight bulb. Disconnect each wire from the regulator and generator and make a simple circuit using each wire to light the headlight bulb. Bright bulb = good wire. Test the battery wire on the regulator the same way. If everything passes check the grounding tabs on the regulator. Buff off any rust or paint under the regulator mounts including anything else between the regulator and the ground side of your battery. If it still doesn't work, replace the regulator.
If you do this pinpoint test exactly, you will find the problem.
 
(quoted from post at 07:54:58 01/24/18) With the Arm terminal on gen disconnected, and the F terminal on the gen grounded, start the tractor and read the voltage on the Arm terminal at 1/2 throttle. If less than 12.8 volts, the full output of the generator's self exciting startup is not enough to close the cutout relay. The voltage regulator cutout relay is designed to only close when gen output raises to more than battery voltage. A generator with a faulty field circuit can charge when fully connected, but not have enough self excited output to latch the cutout. Jim
Click to expand...

11.56 volts
 
(quoted from post at 09:06:12 01/24/18) Check the numbers, but likely. If not exact, the pulleys might be the only difference. Best of luck.
Pulling the cover off of one of the regulators can also make a contributing test. With it running and
not charging (cover off) push on the cutout relay contacts to push them together. If it takes off
charging, the issue may be the self exciting voltage. You could also put the Gen from the grief stricken
tractor on the other one. to see if it fails there. Jim
Click to expand...

Did this and I have 11.53 volts running with amp light on. I touch contacts together at BATT terminal on the regulator and Amp light goes off and voltage drops to 10.72 AND regulator makes buzzing noise
 
(quoted from post at 22:02:41 01/24/18) For the sake of discussion you did the F terminal ground and it didn't work. Remove the belt, disconnect the A and F terminals, and using a heavy wire (jumper cables work well for this) apply the hot side of the battery to the A terminal. The generator should spin fast and clean like a motor. While motoring ground the F terminal. The generator should slow down but continue to spin. If this happens, the generator is ok. Now it's time to test the wires between the regulator and generator. DO NOT use an ohm meter. One fine hair will show a good connection but it will never carry enough current to work. Use a load like a headlight bulb. Disconnect each wire from the regulator and generator and make a simple circuit using each wire to light the headlight bulb. Bright bulb = good wire. Test the battery wire on the regulator the same way. If everything passes check the grounding tabs on the regulator. Buff off any rust or paint under the regulator mounts including anything else between the regulator and the ground side of your battery. If it still doesn't work, replace the regulator.
If you do this pinpoint test exactly, you will find the problem.
Click to expand...

I tried the motor test and my results are in the video at the link below. I decided not to try the rebuilt generator that's on my 140 because it is dark, cold and the front bolt will be almost impossible to get to. Please watch the video and comment on my results as to what you think the problem is.

https://youtu.be/cCDFPBaXB1Y
 
I think the Gen is toast. The motor test usually runs 2 times the speed yours is going. THe motor test
slows it down some, but not stopped. A field that is partially shorted to ground will do what you are
seeing.
If you lift the Arm brush off of the armature (or the third brush if it has 3, it is the one connected to
the field windings) and put plastic under it, the field is now isolated. If an ohm meter is now used
(continuity) between the frame and the F terminal it should be open. If there is connection, the field
is shorted to ground. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 07:06:33 01/25/18) I think the Gen is toast. The motor test usually runs 2 times the speed yours is going. THe motor test
slows it down some, but not stopped. A field that is partially shorted to ground will do what you are
seeing.
If you lift the Arm brush off of the armature (or the third brush if it has 3, it is the one connected to
the field windings) and put plastic under it, the field is now isolated. If an ohm meter is now used
(continuity) between the frame and the F terminal it should be open. If there is connection, the field
is shorted to ground. Jim
Click to expand...

I was thinking it was spinning too slow too and by not moving when field grounded I knew something was definitely wrong. The reason why I decided to make a video.
 
Youtube of motor test. This shows how fast it should spin. The tester does not leave the generator running while grounding the field, but the gen is spinning so fat he has time to touch the field terminal with the power lead which really stops the gen.. Yours barely turns on the motor test (I think it is a field partially shorted to ground. Jim
Youtube of motor test.
 
(quoted from post at 07:16:22 01/25/18) Youtube of motor test. This shows how fast it should spin. The tester does not leave the generator running while grounding the field, but the gen is spinning so fat he has time to touch the field terminal with the power lead which really stops the gen.. Yours barely turns on the motor test (I think it is a field partially shorted to ground. Jim
Youtube of motor test.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the help Jim. I wonder why the flow chart troubleshooter I used didn't catch that problem and told me it was a faulty regulator? I hold that test chart and the other wiring diagrams with high regards and would think Bob Melville would have everything covered in that but I guess not. I'm sure there have been many folks that have scratched their heads with the same issue.

Looks like I will go ahead and convert it to 12 volt alternator since the regulator and generator rebuilt will be over $200 combined, and an alternator will be "free" from a parts tractor or $45 at the local auto parts store, and the factory made brackets will be $40. Much cheaper to do and this tractor has cost me more than I planned to spend.
 
(quoted from post at 07:16:22 01/25/18) Youtube of motor test. This shows how fast it should spin. The tester does not leave the generator running while grounding the field, but the gen is spinning so fat he has time to touch the field terminal with the power lead which really stops the gen.. Yours barely turns on the motor test (I think it is a field partially shorted to ground. Jim
Youtube of motor test.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the help Jim. I wonder why the flow chart troubleshooter I used didn't catch that problem and told me it was a faulty regulator? I hold that test chart and the other wiring diagrams with high regards and would think Bob Melville would have everything covered in that but I guess not. I'm sure there have been many folks that have scratched their heads with the same issue.

Looks like I will go ahead and convert it to 12 volt alternator since the regulator and generator rebuilt will be over $200 combined, and an alternator will be "free" from a parts tractor or $45 at the local auto parts store, and the factory made brackets will be $40. Much cheaper to do and this tractor has cost me more than I planned to spend.
 
Using a Hatchi 14231 will fit and provide a smaller profile. aaait wires the same. S terminal = #2 L
terminal = 1 on a delco. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 07:16:22 01/25/18)
Click to expand...

Ok fellas. I bought a new Delco 10si alternator ($37.00 lifetime warranty) and want to convert from theb12 volt generator and regulator set up to a 12 volt alternator. Mine ha the larger 3 terminal regulator so what wires do inunhook, what wires do I hook to alternator, and which ones do I leave there but tape up and don't use?

10069.jpg
10070.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 21:57:47 02/05/18)
(quoted from post at 00:13:01 02/04/18)
(quoted from post at 07:16:22 01/25/18)
Click to expand...
/quote]

Anyone??
Click to expand...
t VR, tie BATT and ARM together & insulate. At alternator jumper #2 to Batt (alternator output stud) . At alternator, connect old ARM wire to alternator output stud. Connect alternator #1 to small bulb (chg indicator lamp) and other side of bulb to switched ignition switch ( don't have diagram, but ign sw to bulb should already be there and other end of bulb was ultimately connected to ARM, but you will have to find out where, as I do not know on that tractor) ( if can't find easily, then just connect ARM wireto #1 & insulate ARM wire at VR.)
Click to expand...
 
I did as you said and then left the field wire disconnected wind eit doesn't matter. I still don't know what to connect to the #1 terminal and don't understand how connecting both the ARM and BAT wires will work because each goes to 2 seperate locations.

Look at the attached wiring diagram for the tractor and let me know what you think inneed to do to have this conversion done properly.

10288.jpg
10289.jpg
10290.jpg
 
So far, so good. Connecting BATT to ARM wires at VR simply allows use of existing wiring at generator ARM terminal to make a connection to the battery from the alternator output terminal stud.. You did that....good. This next part is more difficult, as I see in the diagram that the side of the charge indicator lamp that needs to be connected to the alternator #1 terminal is connected inside the harness (I expect) to the ARM wire. This is the "Y" just above the connector near the VR in the diagram. It is that wire from the indicator lamp that needs to be separated from the ARM wire at the "y" and then connected to the #1. Most likely it will be easier to go to the indicator lamp and cut that wire & splice into it a new wire between the lamp & #1 of alternator.
 
After I went nighty night, I thought of another way to accomplish the same end result connections between battery & alternator output as well as between idiot light & alt #1 that will be easier for you.
Run a new wire from alternator output to the BATT wire that was previously connected to BATT on VR (10 gauge or heavier will be good). At VR, tape or insulate the wires that were previously connected to VR ARM and Field terminals. At alternator, connect the wire that previously went to generator ARM terminal to the alt #1. At alt, tape/insulate the wire that previously went to generator Field terminal. Alt #2 to alt output wire remains as you have it.
 
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