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Solar electricity

3

37chief

Well-known Member
Location
California
I imagine there are a lot of solar roof panel salesman out of work back east this time of the year. They are alive, and thriving out on the west coast. Anyone have these electric panels to create electricity on their roofs? Every where I go I see these panels on roof tops. I had a salesman come by today. The company will install panels on my roof. All I pay for what I use at a great savings over what I pay my electric co. Sounds like a good deal? Any thoughts? Stan
 
It's been a few years since I have been to any solar classes. Back then I think they figured it would take 20 years for a system to pay for itself. At that point it may start needing some repairs. There may be some new government programs and the materials may be better now.
 
We had solar installed about four months ago here in N. MD. The comps used had three ways of paying for it. We could lease it, and it would drop our bill to about $20 a month. They got the savings on El which paid them back (the 'lease' payment), we could purchase the system on time over 15 or 20 years, or we could purchase it outright, which we did. The cost was something around $16k, and after rebates and discounts for cash, dropped it to around $12k. Cash talks- crap walks.... It cut my EL bill to less than $200 a month from about $250, we get a tax credit from the county and some kind of tax break from the feds. It's not free, but does have a payback of about 4 years. Make sure you shop a few companies. We were warned about one outfit,and found out a buddy did use them to put his system in. They put a fan in his shop, and 6 fewer panels than we got, but for more than twice as much as we paid.But, in the long run it will be worth it. My bill has dropped by over $200/month...
 
If you live in S CA I would think your in the perfect area for it. We have friends in N MN that have a big panel and it works well for them but he has to keep the snow cleaned off of it. If I thought I was going to stay in the same home very long I would try to do it but there are to many uncertainties in life.
 
We had solar HEAT panels on the second house we owned. Most days, if the sun was out, the furnace did not run. I worked night shift. It was pretty common to wake up and the house be 90 deg inside and 10 outside.
Had a rental that had solar water panels. You could get scalded if you took a long shower.
 
You are in the perfect climate, costs have come way down, I think payback is about 5 years now.
 
Be very very careful with solar contractors. The industry if full of scammers. Never ever believe their claims. Never allow them to Bill your property taxes thru the county. Payback times rarely make sense. Hero or PACE WILL foul up your home's financing for you and future buyer.
 
Makes your roof look like a motherboard. lol. Solar is a salesman's (liar's) dream. Nice waterfront property in Arizona. They ambushed me on the way out of Home Depot one day.
 

They have been pushing them hard here in NH. As already said you get good tax credit help for the purchase and you can pay either up front or as you go. Of course your payback time is dependent on the performance of the system. I wonder about the performance of the system though, when I see an installation that covers both sides of a gable roof. That has to be something like twice as much panel for twice the money? A long time friend who is an engineer teamed up with another long time friend to build their own systems. He has a seven year payback, which makes me wonder about a four year payback.


Don Jr. you first state that you save $50.00 per month, then you say $200.00 per month.
 
I looked into them and was somewhat turned off. The local electric coop is pretty discouraging. Roof top panels I want to be heavily involved in the installation BUT the coop insists that their "approved" contractor install them--how do I know those panels don't overload the roof and that the fasteners aren't shorted. I hired the metal roof put on and the first windy day found out just how much they shorted the fasteners--thought I was going to louse the roof till I got all the screws in. And you have to buy the solar panels approved by the coop. The paying works like this--
when you draw power from the grid the meter runs to count up the kilowatts and when the panels produce more electricity they you use the meter runs backward or counts down the kilowatts. At the end of the year if the meter is less then the beginning of the year you are paid what the coop has to pay the same rate a large generator of power. All sounds OK right now think about the monthly, each month you pay the coop billing rate for power drawn from the grid; sounds fair? Now in the winter the days are shorter and cloudy and you need more power to heat the house, not much chance of a surplus of power HOWEVER in the summer the days a longer and average clearer but you need to run the air conditioner so maybe you will have a surplus but not much and you don't get back the rate you paid out for power. So how do you pay for the panels AND the installation. If it were done month to month it would be better and the rates need to be closer together.
That was my conclusion.
 
I recently had a conversation with a guy that had solar totally off grid. He told me it had been 75 days since his system had enough sun for a full charge. That?s in SCKY.
 
"Sounds like a good deal?"

You know the old saying about a deal that sounds too good to be true.

I always worry when a product needs pushy salesmen, good products sell themselves.

Whatever you do, make sure the part that I'm paying for (the subsidies) are what the salesman claims; they've dropped a lot in the past year or two.
 
Don't believe what the salesman tells you.Remember he is out to make money. Check things out for yourself. Talk to people that have them. Find out what they think. Be very careful.
 
I have 15 panels on my roof with batteries storing the power. I did not tie into the grid. It is basically an "off grid" system installed parallel to my grid system. I run my refrigerators and other appliances 24-7. It saves me about 10 cents a day in electricity, but my batteries will only last 10 years before they have to be replaced, which will wipe out all of my savings. I did all of this as a project for the heck of it. If we ever have the big earthquake here in the Memphis area we will be self sufficient. I bought my system from Backwoods Solar. Send for their catalog. It is loaded with information.
 
I'm not familiar with the sales arrangement you described, but here is what we did:

We have had solar panels on our garage for 2 years. The solar company promised us that it would generate enough energy to offset 2/3 of our power usage and so far that number has been pretty accurate.

They were no cost out of pocket for us. Federal grants covered 1/3 of the cost, State grants covered 1/3, and the remaining 1/3 is on a loan that is managed through our current electrical supplier. The State and Federal grant money came back on our tax returns the following year so we did use a 0% interest loan through GreenSky to temporarily cover that portion.

The panels are tied to the grid and we don't own a battery bank. If the grid goes down, we still loose power.

The electrical savings is greater than the cost of the loan payment. The panels have a 20 year warranty and the loan will be done after 15. It's not a great payback, but it is saving money each month.

It's also worth noting that the panels may increase your property taxes offsetting any gains from electricity savings. Our town has an agreement to not include solar panels on the taxes until 20 years after the install.

Good luck!
 
If it weren't for the subsides nobody would have them. I hate paying of other peoples
stuff! Subsidies are one of the reasons we are 20 trillion in debt.

If the panels are covered with snow you have to remove at least half of it and then
their own heat removes the rest, QUESTION.....do the panels make any electricity while
they are removing the snow??????

Solar may be viable in the south, but still only with subsidies (other peoples money).
 
It's a different thing in California than here in Michigan I suppose,but dollar for dollar,I'd go with panels that heat water,not ones that make electricity. The water can be stored in insulated tanks and use for heating the house and domestic hot water. I really think I'd get more bang for my buck with that set up.
a253080.jpg
 
So you had to pay income tax on that state grant and finance that along with the 1/3 installation cost. What will be your net gain in energy savings after you pay off that loan ? Then also subtract maintenance costs, service calls, and degrading performance on the equipment. Like I said ... solar = salesman's dream.
 
So you had to pay income tax on that state grant and finance that along with the 1/3 installation cost. What will be your net gain in energy savings after you pay off that loan ? Then also subtract maintenance costs, service calls, and degrading performance on the equipment. Like I said ... solar = salesman's dream.
Click to expand...

Another uneducated post by someone who obviously knows nothing about solar!
 
You haven't gone far enough. Run your coils through insulated tanks and use them to heat the water in the tanks. (think large water heaters) That way it can be stored and used to heat at night too.
 
(quoted from post at 08:18:21 01/07/18) So you had to pay income tax on that state grant and finance that along with the 1/3 installation cost. What will be your net gain in energy savings after you pay off that loan ? Then also subtract maintenance costs, service calls, and degrading performance on the equipment. Like I said ... solar = salesman's dream.
Click to expand...

Solar has come a long way in just the past five years, both in cost and efficiency. Guys who put in systems 10 years ago have less efficient, more expensive systems than guys who put one in last year. I imagine guys who put in systems five years from now will have better systems than the guys who put them in now. I don't know how it's been performing yet, but Tesla installed a battery pack in Australia a couple months back. That'll be the next thing.

Thing is, if you don't start now, when will you? I'm seriously considering installing a system in the next year, but mine will be on posts in the yard below the barn. That way, they'll be able to be adjusted for sun angle through the year. they'll also double as shade for the chickens when they're out to pasture.

Some of you guys are so negative about "new" things. I imagine if you were around 100 years ago, you'd be sitting on your horse, blowharding about how that new-fangled horseless carriage will never make it, what with its unreliability and its high cost of ownership, and how the roads it rides on are subsidized by taxpayers.
 
Neighbor has them on his machinery shed. Cost was over $50K after all the discounts. He is a organic dairy farmer. HE gets several tax rebates and abatements for property taxes. He also gets another payment from his creamery too. All total the pay out is over 15 years for what he will "save". He likes to talk about how he does not have an electric bill in many of the summer months but seems to forget he has $50K invested in the system.

The tax credits and all the other Federal subsidies are an abomination to me. The renewable energy programs will never have appositive return. Wind or solar will never be competitive with current technologies. The supporters talk about how they will be come equal over time. Well so far how The big "O" programs have done that is to drive up the cost of the conventional electrical generation rates. So the tax payers are getting hammered two ways. First we have to pay for the tree huggers dreams. Second higher electric bills cause by government regulations.

Every time I see a wind farm or a bunch of solar panels I want to just scream at the craziness. Hydro electric is the ONLY current renewable electrical generating system that works and is cost competitive. It gets pennies of help when compared to solar and wind.

I am tired of paying for everyone else's tree hugging ideas/dreams.

I also include the ethanol industry in this too. I am still not totally sure that it is viable when you include all costs verses the benefits. This should include tax abatements, Federal grants/programs, total efficiency's ( fuel used to produce the corn/transport the corn/manufacture the ethanol/transport it to where it is used). Every calculation I have seen "forgets" some of these when they tell us how efficient the new plants are.

Farmers are kind of foolish thinking it will be their salvation too. The industry numbers only claim $25-35 cents of the current price of corn can be traced back to ethanol. As the industry matures it will become less than that. History shows this. Cost go down as a industry matures.

So I say let all things stand on there own merits. The artificial way that today's government is trying to pick winners and losers will never work long term. If it did then Communistic governments would have the most robust economies in the world. History has proven that not to be the case.
 
Just curious,are they generating electricity or heating water? They're on the majority of homes in Sweden,but they heat water.
 
For our system, there was no income tax paid on either Federal and State income taxes. They simply refunded us income tax dollars that we had already paid. There was a provision to spread the refund over multiple years if the credit exceeded the amount of tax paid for that year.

It currently saves us $80/month in electric cost. The loan costs $60/month. After 20 years, the savings at today's energy cost will be $19,200. The loan cost will have been $10,800.

The panels are currently outputting slightly above their rating, which will decrease over the next 20 years. Electricity costs from the grid always rise over time. From a cost perspective this will more than compensate for the loss of output.

There are no moving parts in the system, so there is aren't any planned maintenance costs. There will always be unknowns from a warranty perspective, like the manufacturer going out of business. Everyone will need to decide for themselves if the risk is worth the reward.
 
So, your OK with subsidizing the coal and petroleum industries, and walmart, (indirectly through foodstamps) but not OK with subsidizing something clean?
 
Indianapolis developer installed a 75 acre solar farm on west side 2-3 years ago.. It was operational last I knew, he got subsidies from state and feds. I read where their solar produced electric is sold for .21 cents KW to users thru the grid system. Our residence electric is totally grid from REMC and costs something like .12 or .13 cents KW. It is mostly coal and gas generated electric. On subject of corn producers, they need all possible revenues they can get if they are selling grain. We have maybe ten ethanol plants in Indiana, probably not all operating at present economic climate. Every penny on corn market is needed to keep a farm operation in the black ink even if it is only .20 - .25 cents a bushel. I note where e-fuel is available and only buy from those stations to help corn farmers. Can't see why anyone would want farmers to get less revenue for their product and have less market outlets like e-plants if they are producing grain for sale right at breakeven production costs. (Unless they are buying more grain than than producing then they want cheap corn prices)
 
I like the technology and the ideal of self sufficiency.

I'm hopeful they can improve the efficiency some to make them actually price competitive with other forms of electric generation.

As with any new and different process, it takes some time and money to get there.

So far, they don't compare well without massive tax subsidies.

But hopefully adding a few % efficiency, and more mass produced from higher sales volume will get them over the hump. I'm bothered a bit by the land use the big 300 acre setups take up.....

It is really really hard to do anything small scale and compete with mass produced stuff. an independent rooftop isn't really going to make money, competing with coal, hydro, natural gas mega plants, but it all helps out if you can afford it.....

I see a few more popping up on Farms around here, small scale.

Paul
 
The majority of the 50% of houses that have solar panels on them are council (gov?t) housing. The power is sent back to the grid and the tenants get a small stipend and some free led lightbulbs,that?s about it. In the next 3 years the plan is to install hundreds of thousands more units by a Dutch company that is the major stakeholder in the scheme. It makes the councils look like they care about the environment and a business from the Netherlands a lot of cash, doesn?t benefit the household much at all.
 
Do you think it's smart to have all these little systems dotting the landscape,for lack of a better term,where there's an existing grid serving those residences from a central location already? One house in 100 having one of these systems in a suburb doesn't seem to serve any real purpose. Rural electrification was a government program in it's infancy,but now that it's a mature system,the need for solar electric is just not necessary in most rural areas,but isn't it nice that the technology exists for use in remote areas that aren't served? It's just a matter of using technology where it's needed and not overlapping it.
 
Rural electrification was a huge government program. Just throwing that out there for the sake of argument.
 
"They wouldn't do it if it did not work."

Do you really believe that?

See below.

Dean
 
I personally have not taken any AG subsidies in over 30 years. I do not even use the crop insurance program anymore. My sons do use crop insurance but do not use the other Federal subsidies. I have not even used the soil conservation services in over 20 years. The cost share usually hardly covers the additional cost of how the bean counters want things done. I can build about the same footage of terraces without the government red tape as I can with the co-pay.

That is part of the trouble with all of this too. The government can not do anything efficiently. So anything involving the government is inherently inefficient from the get go.

VicS and Pete in MD are both missing the intent of my post. I think that there should be incentives to practical solutions to problems or help for new ideas. The trouble is the solar and wind subsidies do not pass any type of common sense test for them being practical. They only work by driving up the general cost of energy to equal there cost even with the subsidies. Also they do not save anything on the conventional generation side. You still have to have the ability to conventionally generate all the needed electric for the times the renewable ones are not producing anything. Then you add in the fact that the majority of the wind power industry infrastructure/ie. wind mills, are produced in China so your not even helping the domestic economy that much. I am not sure of where the solar panels are produced but I would bet it is not in the US. I know there are toxic materials used in the manufacture of the photo cells used in the panels so I would guess they are made in China too.

There is not really much of an economic reason for the current renewable programs. They are all just "Feel Good" programs that the elites can point at as doing their part is "Saving the world'. The cost of electric is not a concern for them as the majority of them can easily afford to pay whatever for their energy needs/wants. That leaves the rest of the nation to suffer the added costs of these programs. So the middle class keeps struggling to maintain a standard of living. The manufacturing base just moves elsewhere so they can compete. Both of these things just stress the bubble we are making more. It will collapse in the future and I am not sure the nation will survive that in a form even close to the past. A socialistic nanny state is more likely.
 
I have to wonder. Doesn't the state of California have meters on private water wells? I know that some areas of California do. How long before meters go onto solar panel output? After all EVERYTHING MUST be taxed especially in over spending cash strapped states, right? Just asking.

Mark
 

To respond to one point. The manufacturing base has moved out due to one item in particular: Cost of labor. That is the bedrock of manufacturing. The cost of matieral, machine tools, tooling, energy is roughly the same everywhere. The biggest variable cost is labor. Mexico has lower labor cost than China. The minimum wage in Mexico is about $5 per day!! I worked in factories that lost a lot of jobs to Mexican suppliers. It always came down to cost of labor. We were competitive everywhere else, but they can have a whole crew for less than what we pay one man. I can see that if there is nothing done to stop it, much more will be lost. Anybody who blames the EPA or "gubbermint" is just flat wrong. Its the cost of labor.
 
(quoted from post at 08:24:07 01/07/18)
So you had to pay income tax on that state grant and finance that along with the 1/3 installation cost. What will be your net gain in energy savings after you pay off that loan ? Then also subtract maintenance costs, service calls, and degrading performance on the equipment. Like I said ... solar = salesman's dream.
Click to expand...

Another uneducated post by someone who obviously knows nothing about solar!
Click to expand...
I know enough about it to know that I don't want it. Would be insane in my area. The last 6 weeks of weather here ... at least 50% could cover. ??? lol
 
You can't compete with the next guy if he's taking a subsidy and you're not. That's the problem, once a government program is handing out money everyone is forced to go along whether they like it or not.
 
I am fairly progressive, and believe it has its location, could not see the payback in the midwest.
 
Just a little bit of pondering again. It's like water seeking its own level isn't it? Our wages have stagnated and standard of living has started coming down,but do you think they'll start to rise in Mexico as their expectations rise? They have to know they're working cheap. Isn't that some of the incentive behind coming across the boarder? Do you think at some point wages will have to improve there?
 
rrlund- That's why manufacturing is leaving China and moving to Vietnam, Malaysia, etc... cheaper labor than China.
 
Yep,like I said,water seeking its own level. Bring jobs,the standard of living increases,the more people have the more they want,and the cycle continues.
 

Nope. The government there is hopelessly corrupt. They want as many folks as they can to have some sort of job. They have adopted a low wage strategy. Many of these workers are unionized, but the government controls the union, so the workers are really working for the government in a sense. I have several friends that work down there. They have huge industrial parks that have factories of just about any US company you can think of. They include schools and hospitals, all of this financed by Wall Street, and a cheap labor policy. The government there really only cares about there own party guys, not the public in general. Really not much different than the Mideast, only they have alcohol...
 
(quoted from post at 18:47:30 01/07/18)
Nope. The government there is hopelessly corrupt. They want as many folks as they can to have some sort of job. They have adopted a low wage strategy. Many of these workers are unionized, but the government controls the union, so the workers are really working for the government in a sense. I have several friends that work down there. They have huge industrial parks that have factories of just about any US company you can think of. They include schools and hospitals, all of this financed by Wall Street, and a cheap labor policy. The government there really only cares about there own party guys, not the public in general. Really not much different than the Mideast, only they have alcohol...
Click to expand...

Spook- "I have several friends that work down there."

Down where?
 

No gains unless the solar is subsidized by the rate payer. With the possible exception of Hawaii where the retail price of electricity is very high. In that type of market a "do it your selfer" maybe able to break even with PV panels and a grid tie inverter. To supply power during the daytime peak rates when the air conditioning is operating.
 
(quoted from post at 11:24:07 01/07/18)
So you had to pay income tax on that state grant and finance that along with the 1/3 installation cost. What will be your net gain in energy savings after you pay off that loan ? Then also subtract maintenance costs, service calls, and degrading performance on the equipment. Like I said ... solar = salesman's dream.
Click to expand...

Another uneducated post by someone who obviously knows nothing about solar!
Click to expand...

Explain then how solar is "free".
 
(quoted from post at 11:35:28 01/07/18)
(quoted from post at 08:18:21 01/07/18) So you had to pay income tax on that state grant and finance that along with the 1/3 installation cost. What will be your net gain in energy savings after you pay off that loan ? Then also subtract maintenance costs, service calls, and degrading performance on the equipment. Like I said ... solar = salesman's dream.
Click to expand...

Solar has come a long way in just the past five years, both in cost and efficiency. Guys who put in systems 10 years ago have less efficient, more expensive systems than guys who put one in last year. I imagine guys who put in systems five years from now will have better systems than the guys who put them in now. I don't know how it's been performing yet, but Tesla installed a battery pack in Australia a couple months back. That'll be the next thing.

Thing is, if you don't start now, when will you? I'm seriously considering installing a system in the next year, but mine will be on posts in the yard below the barn. That way, they'll be able to be adjusted for sun angle through the year. they'll also double as shade for the chickens when they're out to pasture.

Some of you guys are so negative about "new" things. I imagine if you were around 100 years ago, you'd be sitting on your horse, blowharding about how that new-fangled horseless carriage will never make it, what with its unreliability and its high cost of ownership, and how the roads it rides on are subsidized by taxpayers.
Click to expand...

Don't want to burst your bubble by PV cell efficiency has not improved in 40 years. The price per watt has dropped since production was moved to China. The cost is not going to appreciably drop farther. Ever consider the toxic waste dump din China during PV manufacturing ?
Lithium battery energy density is not going to increase and the cost will not decrease. Have you calculated how much a battery bank to power New York City over night would cost ?
I keep seeing non engineering persons making these optimistic claims.
 
(quoted from post at 12:54:21 01/07/18) So, your OK with subsidizing the coal and petroleum industries, and walmart, (indirectly through foodstamps) but not OK with subsidizing something clean?
Click to expand...

What fossil subsidies ? btw care to add up all the fees, licenses, royalties and taxes direct and indirect paid by fossil into government coffers . That is what pays for socialism in Norway.
 
(quoted from post at 13:13:30 01/07/18) I like the technology and the ideal of self sufficiency.

I'm hopeful they can improve the efficiency some to make them actually price competitive with other forms of electric generation.

As with any new and different process, it takes some time and money to get there.

So far, they don't compare well without massive tax subsidies.

But hopefully adding a few % efficiency, and more mass produced from higher sales volume will get them over the hump. I'm bothered a bit by the land use the big 300 acre setups take up.....

It is really really hard to do anything small scale and compete with mass produced stuff. an independent rooftop isn't really going to make money, competing with coal, hydro, natural gas mega plants, but it all helps out if you can afford it.....

I see a few more popping up on Farms around here, small scale.

Paul
Click to expand...

What worthwhile increases in efficiency? The low hanging fruit was picked years ago.
 
(quoted from post at 14:32:42 01/07/18) I personally have not taken any AG subsidies in over 30 years. I do not even use the crop insurance program anymore. My sons do use crop insurance but do not use the other Federal subsidies. I have not even used the soil conservation services in over 20 years. The cost share usually hardly covers the additional cost of how the bean counters want things done. I can build about the same footage of terraces without the government red tape as I can with the co-pay.

That is part of the trouble with all of this too. The government can not do anything efficiently. So anything involving the government is inherently inefficient from the get go.

VicS and Pete in MD are both missing the intent of my post. I think that there should be incentives to practical solutions to problems or help for new ideas. The trouble is the solar and wind subsidies do not pass any type of common sense test for them being practical. They only work by driving up the general cost of energy to equal there cost even with the subsidies. Also they do not save anything on the conventional generation side. You still have to have the ability to conventionally generate all the needed electric for the times the renewable ones are not producing anything. Then you add in the fact that the majority of the wind power industry infrastructure/ie. wind mills, are produced in China so your not even helping the domestic economy that much. I am not sure of where the solar panels are produced but I would bet it is not in the US. I know there are toxic materials used in the manufacture of the photo cells used in the panels so I would guess they are made in China too.

There is not really much of an economic reason for the current renewable programs. They are all just "Feel Good" programs that the elites can point at as doing their part is "Saving the world'. The cost of electric is not a concern for them as the majority of them can easily afford to pay whatever for their energy needs/wants. That leaves the rest of the nation to suffer the added costs of these programs. So the middle class keeps struggling to maintain a standard of living. The manufacturing base just moves elsewhere so they can compete. Both of these things just stress the bubble we are making more. It will collapse in the future and I am not sure the nation will survive that in a form even close to the past. A socialistic nanny state is more likely.
Click to expand...

JDSeller, that is one of the best explanations I have read.
 
Ronnie,
I didn't miss the intent of your post. I said I agree with you. Just wondered if you felt the same way about ag subsidies, that's all. You made your view on that subject clear. Thanks for that.
 
(quoted from post at 22:16:45 01/07/18)
(quoted from post at 14:32:42 01/07/18) I personally have not taken any AG subsidies in over 30 years. I do not even use the crop insurance program anymore. My sons do use crop insurance but do not use the other Federal subsidies. I have not even used the soil conservation services in over 20 years. The cost share usually hardly covers the additional cost of how the bean counters want things done. I can build about the same footage of terraces without the government red tape as I can with the co-pay.

That is part of the trouble with all of this too. The government can not do anything efficiently. So anything involving the government is inherently inefficient from the get go.

VicS and Pete in MD are both missing the intent of my post. I think that there should be incentives to practical solutions to problems or help for new ideas. The trouble is the solar and wind subsidies do not pass any type of common sense test for them being practical. They only work by driving up the general cost of energy to equal there cost even with the subsidies. Also they do not save anything on the conventional generation side. You still have to have the ability to conventionally generate all the needed electric for the times the renewable ones are not producing anything. Then you add in the fact that the majority of the wind power industry infrastructure/ie. wind mills, are produced in China so your not even helping the domestic economy that much. I am not sure of where the solar panels are produced but I would bet it is not in the US. I know there are toxic materials used in the manufacture of the photo cells used in the panels so I would guess they are made in China too.

There is not really much of an economic reason for the current renewable programs. They are all just "Feel Good" programs that the elites can point at as doing their part is "Saving the world'. The cost of electric is not a concern for them as the majority of them can easily afford to pay whatever for their energy needs/wants. That leaves the rest of the nation to suffer the added costs of these programs. So the middle class keeps struggling to maintain a standard of living. The manufacturing base just moves elsewhere so they can compete. Both of these things just stress the bubble we are making more. It will collapse in the future and I am not sure the nation will survive that in a form even close to the past. A socialistic nanny state is more likely.
Click to expand...

JDSeller, that is one of the best explanations I have read.
Click to expand...

X2!
 

IME solar (and many other solutions to energy issues) is like those carbs that magically take a 7mpg 3/4 ton 4wd pickup suddenly get 50 or 150mpg- the only one making/saving money is the guy selling the product. I'd love to have a wind system, just because it fascinates me. But I know it would cost more to have it than I'd ever get back. I won't get too deep into the financing of the subsidies involved, but nothing, NOTHING, comes for free. A subsidy/grant means someone else is paying the bill. People have to start realizing that.
 
BINGO Randy ,That TODAY is the Very Best way for solar panels to work ,IMHO .I Have a lot of Thoughts That are not going to be expressed FULLY ... Having read all the arguments Rocky Ridge hit it on the head ,,. We Can not Move Forward and improve if WE Consistantly ly RESIST and REFUSE New Ideas , Especially if we have disdain For Them , True , I am guilty of calling alot of techy stuff (Modern b/s )..There Are alot of ideas that desrve to be tried if a fella just had the operating capitol . study Madame Cureau , and Thomas Edison .. Money for continued Research was always a problem,..Henry Ford , and Leon Clausen at CASE raised hale with the engineers for wasting TIME and Money on Harebrained ideas ,. about 1969 Tenneco Board insisted that the Powershift CASE was good enuf to roll out the doors without a park pall and no safe NEUTRAL and other quirks that are VERY DANGEROUS TO THE operator or unwise mechanic trying to learn and or adjust ,, Any inventor gruop is blessded when grants come on board , and it is Not easy to get a grant ,,.. The Grantor HAS to agree that the ZANY inventor TRUELy has dood idea Worthy of investment . And TRUE THere Are A lot of STUPID ideas Out there That Have been funded ,,My neighbor built a 20 ft Tall Perpetual motion machine ,, Even Got a Patent ,,. But It Dont Work , (I think its possible to work if any open minded thinkers want to study it like i have ) but THAT is ANother Post ..JD Seller Made a lot of very good points ,..However , Not All of Us have become independently Wealthy and ARE Now ahead of the game , Some of Us are not experienced or smart enuf to do EVerything without a little help from those government agencies that know the best methods ,.. ,Anything ..That does Cost Money , should have a place to find wisdom to do it correctly ..I do Applaud J d s success ,,. I Know He Worked hard and smart , and it was not dumb luck that put him and his family where they are today ,IT WAS SMART and WISE choices !. ..if there were no help for us dummis that live and learn with the hard luck cloud nippin at our heals ,,.. Then we would degrade toa society of Serfs and KINGS ,, If one thought long and hard about the
Degradation of society that seems to be gaining a edge , This Argument becomes a double edged sword ..Come to Think of it ,,... THose (serfs) living in apartments that dont cut grass and forgot how to change oil or charge a battery ,, Today , They Mite laugh about how hard their (KING) brother works his big ol farm cutting hay and building or fixing equipment , while all the while he is being fed by his brothers animals as food and fiber ..
 
Absolutely not! I don't like any subsidies, let the market dictate the price. I repeat, "subsidies are part of the reason for our 20 trillion debt".
 
Friend ,Your arguments from your experiences probably deserve merit if we all knew the circumstances ,Something happened to cause you to feel that strong ,,.. There is no point to anger You to argue otherwise . In My kindest words I do beleive You are out of balance with that kind of thinking..
 

Not certain what you were rambling on about but there are limits in PV efficiency , the amount of sunshine per day and the cost per Kw hr with batteries . No amount of optimism and comparisons to unrelated topic will change that.
Let me guess , you are not an engineer .
 
(quoted from post at 11:12:14 01/08/18) Hey Buick --are you an engineer?
Click to expand...

Heck no, B&D is not an engineer! He's the resident smarter-than-you crab. A quarter of his posts are telling people to buy a manual, a quarter are telling people how evil CaCl is for Ballast, a quarter are lamenting repowering gas tractors with diesels, and a quarter are preaching how everyone should buy new compact tractors over older tractors. The rest of his posts aren't that bad... :p

If he was an engineer, he's the one that puts the grease zerk in a spot where you need three arms and have to stand on your head.
 
A lot of good discussion here.

Solar panels are X efficient, that number keeps getting better, but will never be 100%.

In retrospect, I believe LED's are only about 50% efficient, they just seem great compared to incandescent.
 
(quoted from post at 17:31:38 01/08/18)
(quoted from post at 11:12:14 01/08/18) Hey Buick --are you an engineer?
Click to expand...

Heck no, B&D is not an engineer! He's the resident smarter-than-you crab. A quarter of his posts are telling people to buy a manual, a quarter are telling people how evil CaCl is for Ballast, a quarter are lamenting repowering gas tractors with diesels, and a quarter are preaching how everyone should buy new compact tractors over older tractors. The rest of his posts aren't that bad... :p

If he was an engineer, he's the one that puts the grease zerk in a spot where you need three arms and have to stand on your head.
Click to expand...

A pity that you feel so threatened....
 
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