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oil changes old school or new school

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boberjagel

Member
Went to change oil in our grain trucks and was scolded by son because I was warming up the engines. He claims that the new belief is to change oil with engine cold because all of the contaminates settled in the pan when it was last shut down. By warming it up prior to the change he claims the contaminates are now circulated through the engine again. He says this pertains only to multi viscosity oil though. Straight weight oil such as 30 # would still need to be warmed to make it thinner to flow out of the pan easier. What's the consensus on this.
 
I never heard of the new theory but if the contaminents are settled in the pan with cold, viscous oil then I doubt they will drain out.
 
I do mine with engine hot. I was told by running engine and getting it hot that the contaminates are suspended in oil and drain out. Your not going to get all the contaminates warm or cold oil change. If you ever try to change 15w40 in cold weather it comes out very slow and if it gets below zero it almost won't flow.
 
I always drain engine oil not just from a warmed up engine, but from an engine which has been working. I pull the key, so in a senior stupor, I don't forget, say, if it's overnight, and try to drive off! I like to leave the draining overnight. Then things are cooled down in the morning. Oil filter change is a lot cleaner.
 
I completely agree with you. I would think it is much more effective to get everything in suspension in warm oil then drain rather than assume the contaminents will ooze along the bottom of the pan to the drain hole when doing it cold.
 
At least your son knows how to do it. lot of these young folks don't know how to check the oil. I change mine when its hot.
 
I don't think it really matters. If the oil is changed on a timely basis there shouldn't be that much contaminates in the oil. If the concern is contaminates then when things settle they tend to stick. It's why they put a ball in rattle can paint. The contaminates are more likely to stay in the pan when you drain it and re-suspend in the new oil after the engine is run again. You would have to remove the pan and wash it when changing the oil to really make a difference. Just another thing that is more trouble than it's worth.
 

I saw an oil pan once that was removed from a truck that had just been out for a few weeks with a lot of miles, but prior to that had not run much for 2-3 years. It had over an inch of sludge on the bottom. The only way to accumulate that much is numerous oil changes with the "contaminants settled to the bottom."
 
Hot or cold I don't think it matters, cold takes more time to drain. Of greater import is the time between changes--longer the more contaminates are there and the less lubrication is possible. For the older oils I like 2 to 3 thousand miles the newer synthicate oils are recommended to be as much as 10,000 miles which I think quickens wear.
 
Lot of theories and misconceptions about oil. One of the main misconceptions is that you can run synthetic oil longer than regular oil. (Of course you can) Synthetic oil drastically reduces friction, thus wear but it is diluted by fuel contamination just like regular oil. Oil is gradually replaced by fuel seeping by piston rings and blow by. This is an increased problem when cold engines are started frequently. Engines that are frequently started and old engines need to have the oil changed more frequently. Back to subject, oil needs to be drained when hot. (don't burn yourself.
 
(quoted from post at 00:24:44 12/09/17) .....He claims that the new belief is to change oil with engine cold because all of the contaminates settled in the pan when it was last shut down. By warming it up prior to the change he claims the contaminates are now circulated through the engine again......
Click to expand...

It appears two assumptions are made, regarding contaminates in the pan and contaminates circulated through the engine: 1) an [u:5273111f04]assumption[/u:5273111f04] is made that everything in the pan drains out. 2) in the case for draining cold it appears an [u:5273111f04]assumption[/u:5273111f04] is also made, that contaminates circulated through out the engine do not remain in the various passages but also collect in the pan awaiting draining.

In my mind oil/contaminates in the engine oil passages, for the most part remain there and do not drain ..... hot or cold. In addition, the best way to insure contaminates in the sump oil are drained is to drain hot, while the contaminates are still suspended through out the oil. Hot or cold ..... some oil always remains in the sump. In the case of draining cold the remaining oil would/could contain collected settled contaminates rather than uniformly distributed suspended contaminates.
 
I want the engine warm so when you start back up with no oil pressure for a bit, at least the engine has had warm oil circulating in it just prior to shutting it off. And what about putting some sea foam in the oil a couple days before changing it? I think there could be some merit to that approach.
 
Seems like one could test this theory using a couple of empty dish soap bottles to simulate the oil pan.

Fill one bottle half full of oil and add some sludge from your catch pan.

Fill a second soap bottle with the same amounts of oil and sludge.

Set them upside down in a cup and let the sludge settle overnight out in the cold porch.

Then on #1 soap bottle: open the dispensing end and let the oil drain while cold with sludge still settled.

On #2 soap bottle: warm it up in a dish of hot water and shake it up real well before opening the dispensing and and then let it drain.

It seems that would show which one drains out best.

My guess is the bottle in which the oil has been warmed up and particulate/sludge mixed-in will drain the best.
 
ive always drained it hot, better drainage, and quicker refill, the oil warms as it enters the still warm engine and flows down to the pan, instead of staying up in the valve cover for a few moments, i dont use synthetics, my engines wernt designed for them , and i change every 3 to 4 thousand miles or 4 months on tractors that see a lot of run time
 
Your son sounds like he is over educated on this subject and taught by someone that does not understand real world situations. Next time you change the oil put it in an open bucket. Let it set until it is cold. Dump the bucket. You will find most of the contaminates in the bottom of the bucket.

Your oil pan does not drain 100% of the oil out of the bottom. So if the contaminates are not in suspension than there is going to be a larger percentage left in the oil pan.

Want to see evidence of this tear down an engine that the owner lets set over the winter and then changes the oil cold in the spring. There will be a layer of sludge in the bottom of the oil pan. So change your oil after the heavy use period BEFORE long term storage.
 
I change it when the oil is burn-your-hand hot. All of the contaminates are still being suspended in the oil instead of lying on the bottom of the pan.
Thanks to the depth of the female threads in the oil pan, your son does realize that about a half inch of oil never drains out of the pan, doesn't he?
Anyway, I guess it doesn't really matter too much, as long as the oil gets drained.
Years ago, I bought a '78 Mercury Zephyr (Ford Fairmont clone) with the factory 302. I knew the engine had been neglected, but I bought the car because it had a 302 in it.
Anyway, I had to change the intake manifold on it and when I pulled it off, there was so much crude in the lifter valley that I couldn't see the push rods, lifters or anything else except the crud. I suspect the oil had gone 25K miles on cheap, store-branded bulk oil.
There was no resurrecting that engine.
 
I agree, warm it up, you are never going to get all the old oil out.

The secret to pollution is dilution.
 
I will always drain engine oil hot. Preferably hot enough to burn your hands if you don't wear rubber gloves. If you have ever changed the oil in the old oil bath air cleaners and seen the solid layer of mud in the bottom you will see why I like the oil hot. Usually do it at the end of the day so the engine can sit draining all night to get as much old oil out as possible.
 
Millions of dealers and quick lubes have been doing it all wrong then ! lol.
The only thing new school vers old school is going away from old school 3,000 mi. changes and extending them by using maintenance minder lights telling you when to change. Many of these are up to 10,000 mi.
 

I like to change mine warm simply to speed up the oil drain time.

Valid arguments on both sides.

Cold engine, most of the oil has drained down to the pan but some of the settled sludge will stick to the bottom of the pan and not drain out.
Warm engine, the sludge is suspended in the oil better with less sticking to the pan, but oil is clinging to engine parts so one doesn't get a complete drain.
I guess the proper way would be to pull the plug on a warm engine and let it sit for several hours or over night.

Now let's remember there's residual oil in the oil pump, oil galley's and other areas of the engine that never drains out, on larger engines there's the oil cooler and any associated lines that oil will remain in, on my old 12 valve Cummins there's a half qrt that stays in the inj pump.
So no matter how one drains their oil there's alway some oil and sludge that remains behind.

The most important part is that new oil filter to catch some of that remaining sludge and future deposits.

An old mechanic I knew back in the 70's bought a new pickup, the standard oil change at that time was 3000 miles, he would go 2000 miles and change the filter, top off the oil and go again.
At 100,000 miles it had normal oil pressure, didn't use any more oil than any other engine of equal mileage and had never had the oil pug removed.
Claimed he had proven the point that as long as you filtered out the contaminates the oil never wore out, and the qrt of new oil at filter changes replenished the additives.
 


I believe the thought is totally backwards to reality.

Modern HD oils, and premium oils.. are made to keep particles suspended and keep them from clumping.... They have cleaning agents.... They don't have volatile components that vaporize off and cause the oil to thicken. so hot or cold, should in theory make no difference. However warmer oil will flow a bit better and should drain better. Ironically these oils keep the contaminates suspended in any temperature. So the only oil that you could drain cold, is this kind of oil.

Cheap oils wax out and leave sediments behind when they cool down, so the HOTTER the oil, the better for getting the oil, and the heavier paraffin molecule chains out of the engine. These oils have no cleaning additives and additives to fight corrosion or moisture. These oils have thin components that vaporize off so that the oil gets thicker over time. So again, warmer oil will remove more moisture over a cold engine and help thin the thicker remains. Professional racers ALWAYS drain the oil immediately after a hard track run, at its hottest, to get the most contaminants out. Cooling only allowed them to settle out of the oil, and therefore they stayed in the engine as sludge.

For my money, I will hedge towards old thinking, to get the best drain possible, removing more of moisture and contaminants. I will always try to drain warmer or hot. Running a "BETTER" oil is more important however than the drain temperature.
 
OK, tell him that he's off base here. If he's really that concerned about contaminates in the oil he should look at how oil filters work. Most oil filters are plugged and oil is going through the bypass before oil changes are due. So HE should change the filter, run till hot taking most contaminates out in the just changed new filter, then change the filter again while draining the hot oil.


Rick
 
I add a half qt of kero , run the engine til hot and then flush. I want all that contamination in suspension to "FLUSH" out of the engine FAST!.
 
I like to change my oil when it's hot. I not only get oil all over me, but I get hot oil all over me. I can't believe how careful I am. I manage to spill some. Even with the pan under the drain hole, everything is doing ok, then a wind comes up and blows oil over the top of the pan. Stan
 
Warm oil is going to flow out of the drain plug better taking sludge with it. Cold sludge will stay stuck to the pan.
 
Last time I heard this theory it was applied to non-detergent oils and mostly for folks that drove Chevys that had straight sixes, cast iron pistons and splash lubrication. Your oil pick
up is on the bottom of the pan, it pulls oil off the bottom, if "stuff" it settles out anytime you start the engine you'd sending a dose of crap to your main bearings, as others have
mentioned detergent oils are designed to keep the contamination in suspension and oil filters designed to strain the contaminants out of the oil, theory being the contaminants are solid
chunks bigger than the oil molecules so oil goes through the filter gunk doesn't. I prefer a hot drain, I think more oil runs out when it's hot, it runs out faster and I believe there's
less sludge laying in pockets of a cold engine. But then again I'm just a reformed Dairy Farmer, so what the heck do I know?
 
My Dad said the UPS practice was to change the oil filter, top it off and send in an oil sample for analysis, they felt oil doesn't wear out it becomes contaminated, if it breaks down
there is anther problem like the oil is getting too hot which is indicative of a larger problem that need to be addressed, I think at one point they had an additive package they also added
but not sure on that one.
 
agrreed,.. My 69 Marquis convertable had Qoaker state stikers on the door post when i got it 43 yrs ago,my neighbor saw that and handed me a qt of type f Fluid to pour in the engine oil , he was a truck mechanic,told me to change the filter after a hundredmiles , then change the oil and filter after 500 miles,and use valvoline or havolene.it was oil burner using a qt every 500 miles .and a lifterattler on startup,. . we think it was run hard and put up wet ,.after 2 yrs,.i religously changed oil every 3000 miles , and at 2000 miles would add a qt of type f .. it was still using a qt pf oil every 1000miles or less ,and that oil was filthy coming out..we did a valve job ,, the lifters were bad,guides were worn too, and seals were all but gone,..butworse there was acoffee can full of crud on the lifter valley,..
 
From my understanding locomotive engines only get additives as needed,not oil changes.The oil is tested first of course.I realize that is not practical but for large engines! Anyone with more knowledge about this please chime in
 
(quoted from post at 19:04:31 12/09/17) From my understanding locomotive engines only get additives as needed,not oil changes.The oil is tested first of course.I realize that is not practical but for large engines! Anyone with more knowledge about this please chime in
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I have a couple CAT 3516 (3200HP) on my boat and we change oil about every 1000 hrs (actually go off gallons of fuel burned). Sump is 200 gallons. Oil is sampled at half way point and before oil change but that is looking for fuel dilution, metal and such.

CAT 3608 (3600hp) have a centrifuge mounted on the side that the hot oil goes through. A lot of the carbon (sludge) captured in there. Centrifuge is cleaned 500 hrs. Oil and filters are changed at 1500 hrs.

Oh and drain oil hot
 
Oldsarge, I believe some of us called it Quaker Sludge! At my work on KW and MACK trucks, oil is scheduled to be changed 20,000 miles, oil sample taken and sent off. We've got an '07 KW T800 with1,248,00 miles that still runs well and I can't recollect the valve cover being off in the five years I've been there!
 
I agree. With the engine warmed up, the contaminates are still suspended in the oil and will exit the engine with the oil.

I changed oil in my Dodge Grand Caravan this afternoon and drove it around the section before I drove it into my shop.
 
Oil sweatening is common for 2 stoke EMD engines, they consume enough oil that changing is not required. GE 4 stroke engines have the oil changed avery 6 months and samples taken weekly.
 
(quoted from post at 01:24:44 12/09/17) Went to change oil in our grain trucks and was scolded by son because I was warming up the engines. He claims that the new belief is to change oil with engine cold because all of the contaminates settled in the pan when it was last shut down. By warming it up prior to the change he claims the contaminates are now circulated through the engine again. He says this pertains only to multi viscosity oil though. Straight weight oil such as 30 # would still need to be warmed to make it thinner to flow out of the pan easier. What's the consensus on this.
Click to expand...


Everything I've read or heard about the subject says to warm the oil BEFORE changing it. Run it first and get 'er warmed up!
 
I warm up most of the time. I just don't want to end up like the town did. They took the fire truck out for a drive to warm up some, then got T boned by someone who sped past a stop sign in a minivan. End up with the truck being totaled, just from warming it up some.
 
After receiving burns from hot oil and hot exhaust pipes numerous times, I don't give a flip. When I change oil I change it cold.

Modern oil is only SAE 5 or 0 when cold, so it's just as thin cold as it is hot. Even SAE 10 is pretty thin cold.

When the oil comes out it's plenty dark cold or hot, so I figure I'm getting most of the contaminants.
 
I don't think it makes much difference. I do mine cold mainly to most of the oil out. If its been sitting over night or longer most of the oil is in the pan. A GOOD oil will trap the contaminates and suspend them in the oil anyway. the filter will take out the particulates. (always change the filter)

If you had the engine running the oil will take some time to drain back down to the pan and therefore, if you're in a hurry you won't get all the old oil and contaminates that are spread throughout the engine out anyway.

Now if its an old engine that's seen a hard dusty life like alot of farm trucks and tractors it probably has some sludge and varnish. if you're worried about it flush it with a good engine flush and follow directions. using a premium synthetic will clean an engine out too but you may have to change a filter or 2 as the contaminates the syn oil cleans up will plug the filters (had that happen 2x now on used cars i switched to Synthetic AMSOIL).

i'd keep changing it cold and always change the filter
 

Best of both. Park the fully heated up machine until the oil cools enough so it is still very warm but does not burn your hands .
 
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