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Where does responsibility lay? OT!

O

oldtanker

Well-known Member
Read an article this morning. People complaining about rules being rolled back concerning "for profit post secondary school". The rules would require these institutions to publish average student loan debt for each course offered, % of students who actually got employed in that field of study/training. Average pay in whatever field. Average time to complete, drop out rates and so on.

Now I understand that schools pump stuff into students from a young age telling them they can be whatever they want to be. That's a lie, a kid, who is 5'3" fully grown is never going to be a star basketball player. Nor is a kid with an average IQ going to be a rocket scientist. And they also tell kids to follow their dreams. Well if JR wants to be a rock star and can't play an instrument or sing? Or their dream is something there is no calling for in the job market? A woman mentioned in the article racked up 60K in student debt getting a masters degree in music, vocals.

IMO today, with everyone in the US having access to the internet, at home, local school, library or on their smart phone, they should be researching what they want. They should be responsible for finding out what kind of money they can expect to make in which ever career they are looking at. What their student debt is going to look like. Even if they can find a job in that field.

Guys if you have kids at home, grand kids, maybe you should talk to them. Get them thinking about what their prospects are. Make sure they know that a job makes a living. The money you make allows them to have a life!

Rick
 
I think every kid should sit at a table. Then be told the truth about how the world really is. Not how they were told it will be. I had a kid show up
on a job site acting like a fool. He had his hot gloves on and his suit. But he was told with all that he could not be hurt. He was moving around to
fast. Got hit with 480. Knocked him out. He learned a hard lesson.

I have also seen the ones that think the world cares about them. Kinda funny to watch them when they find out the truth. Felt sorry for the ones that
were told they could be what ever they wanted to be. Then they find out how the real world is.
 
My cousin's son studied golf course management. Huge promises of a job and job security. Only trouble is,the best paying job he could find in that field paid $19,000 a year.
 
My son just had to let a young fellow go just because of a similar problem. He came in as a 22 year old with an associates degree totally unrelated to the job he was hired for. He was a worker BUT he knew it ALL. He would barge through things without knowing how to do them right. My son talked to him several times telling him to slow down and follow the directions of the older/experienced workers. Well after six months and three mistakes that cost the company money he was let go.

It was really kind of sad thing. He was a real hard worker but just would not follow directions. In maybe ten years after life smacks him around some, he will more than likely be a good employee.
 
You are dead on, rrlund! Those are the same parents who don't believe that their kids could get into trouble, because "they are better that that!"
 
Your Right rrlund, It starts at home, most children are pampered whey too much, they get every thing that they cry for handed to them,,they don't want to eat beans, or broccoli so Momma fixes some thing sweet and special for them,,the don't want to keep their room clean, so Momma says that's okay baby go on play with you video game...one thing after another till all of a sudden they are 20 years old and will not work,,but still want all to fall in their lap...One of the reasons the Law Officers have so much problems with Youths is the children are not taught to respect and have not seen discipline..The big construction company's around here look for farm kids to work for them for this reason,, They know how to work, they have been taught respect for the equipment and those around them. Most city kids rule their parents,,and it shows up when they become adults. I was reading an article in the paper this morning about a landscape company was trying to hire only local help, instead on Mexicans,,it wasn't working out because the local boys said the work was too hard.....
 
When my boys decided they didn't want to farm anymore and went out in to the world looking for a job,I told them to be sure they told a potential employer that they milked cows for a lot of years. It showed that they knew how to work seven days a week and keep at it until the job was done.
 
If the schools didn't fill you full of "hype" they would go out of business. Like the politicians who don't tell you "what you want to hear" don't get elected. A lot of the "good"
jobs won't touch anyone without "some sort" of college degree however a graduate must understand that to get those jobs they must be willing to move and put down roots literally
half way around the planet. Even then, if they do good and earn a higher salary they'll be eventually dumped for some new employee who will work for less so they always have to be
prepared to relocate. When I worked as a mechanic I didn't appreciate the fact that if you were even half way descent (and I don't mean great) there was no such thing as
unemployment. I could and did leave jobs one day and be working at another place of choice the next day at same or better pay. I eventually got into engineering, which I loved and
was good at, but with those type of companies the first thing to be cut is the engineering dept when times get bad.
 
The problem is that the conventional institutions that taught responsibility have gone into decline in recent decades. These institutions include but are not limited to parents, church, and school. Better to have the colleges use some disclosure instead of students stealing to pay off their student debts which cannot be discharge via bankruptcy. I don't trust any politician regardless of political stripe to tell the truth in terms of the economy and it is my belief that it has and will be tougher to survive out in the real world than what it was when we were all much younger. In my mind I am just facing the world as it exists in 2017 rather than hoping we can reboot to 1950 or 1970.
 
I tell young people to find what their talent is, what they are really interested in, then polish that talent. Like you say, an average IQ wont be a rocket scientist. But that person with an average IQ might have a good eye for interior decorating. Interior decorating might be the career for that person.

My dad's dad was a dentist and when my dad graduated from high school his dad told him he should go to college for a higher education. College and a higher formal education just wasn't up my dad's alley so he dropped out of college after one semester. He ended up being a very successful farmer and investor. Of course he graduated in much simpler times 75 years ago when there were no handouts.
 
The thing I'm getting at here is that kids are going to school and majoring or taking trade school stuff that has little prospect for a job. They can get online, while still in high school and look at average pay for skills/degrees. Yet they don't and when done with school cry like babies when they find out that they are not going to make the money they thought or may not be able to get a job at all.

Now I know that professors and instructors have to have a certain number of students or they don't have a job. So it's a given they are going to lie. I have a son who has a degree in computer sciences. He makes good money but he works between 50 and 60 hours a week. Kinda normal industry wide. A guy he went to college with had the idea that he would only have to work 40 hours a week. My son still talks to the guy but he has refused work because they require more than 40 hours. He's selling stuff at Best Buy and trying to pay down student loans.

Kid here took auto body. Course instructor told him before he started how much money he could expect to make. That's only true is you can get on in a high end shop that does custom work, a restoration shop or own your own shop. He's kinda mad but he is trying to get his own thing going.

Rick
 
That can be found in all professions. How many guys that bought high priced feeder calves last spring will be crying about loosing money when they sell finished cattle into at much lower market prices? How many guys that bought $10,000 per acre land will be crying that; they can't pay their property taxes like everyone else does; they can't pay their employees the same wages that every other business does; they can't train new employees like every other business does; they can't operate without employees being injured; they can't maintain their trucks well enough trucks to keep them safe like every other business does; they can't control soil erosion, fertilizer runoff and pesticide drift like every other business does; all because they paid too much for the ground and now need to take shortcuts to stay in business.
 
Exactly! I always told my girls to put on their resumes that they had a farm upbringing and could handle most tasks on the farm. Anyone reviewing their resumes was always impressed by that fact. Ben
 

A lot of this is aimed at for profit schools, most are border line scams, they really are in the finance business, not education. Regardless of the type of school, I fail to see why a overview of the course of study is a bad idea. Most public school do this already...
 
(quoted from post at 10:04:05 10/08/17) They can get online, while still in high school and look at average pay for skills/degrees.
Click to expand...
But what good is that when all the money they ever needed before was just "given" to them by their folks? They need to leanr:
1) the REAL "value of money" (money really can't buy everything!)
2) that having money takes work, work ethic, talent, skills, perseverance, trust, respect, etc, etc. How many "kids" even understand what these things mean?!?!?
 
"[b:654c4848f0][i:654c4848f0]<font color="#6699ff">Or their dream is something there is no calling for in the job market?[/i:654c4848f0][/b:654c4848f0]</font>"

Mike Rowe once said ?[i:654c4848f0]We are lending money we don?t have to kids who can?t pay it back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That?s nuts.[/i:654c4848f0]?

The original question is "[i:654c4848f0]Where does responsibility lay?[/i:654c4848f0]"

It is the responsibility of the parents to guide and counsel their children on feasible career options and opportunities.

It is the responsibility of the young adult to make their own career choice decision.

It is also the responsibility of the young adult to make their own decision for career changes, if necessary, in the future.
 
I went to a HVAC refrigeration trade
school. This was about 20 years ago.
The class was about 1/2 and 1/2 guys
out of high school and guys layed off
from factory work coal mines etc. The
older guys just about all finished the
class some quit in the middle with a
better job offer. The younger crowd,
only a few finished most had no
mechanical ability or aptitude. There
was a point where one teachers had a
heart to heart talk with a few of the
guys during lab class. The talk boiled
down to you are most likely not going
to be a service man in this industry.
Lol the looks on the faces was
priceless. The teacher was an old
school guy and called a spade a spade.
I guess them guys just got shuffled
along their whole lives and expected
to make top rate right out of school.
 
The issue was with the for-profit schools, which were deliberately misrepresenting their products, namely diplomas and certificates not worth the paper they were printed on. They were often selling their products to gullible, naive and unsophisticated customers, tricking them into borrowing a lot of money to pay for a worthless education. Active-duty servicemen and vets were among their favorite targets.

Now one can say "caveat emptor", but by the same token we don't have to regulate the deceptive practices of used car dealers either. Folks should just know that almost everybody in the business deliberately deceives their customers, right?

As for the not-for-profit schools (mostly public), it is true that they do offer degrees in majors that probably won't earn you a living. But at least those degrees are real, and schools don't try to deliberately misrepresent them as something they are not. There's a world of difference between earning a degree from a state university in, say ballet, and getting a diploma mill certificate in business administration. Sure, you can't earn a living with either one, but the former is what is says it is, and the latter is not.
 
I had a cousin like that. He was born mean but parents refused to believe it. It was always somebody else is fault. He was killed a week after getting out of prison. Trying to break in an elderly couples home.
 
Some people think their kids know everything. Kids know nothing until you teach it to them. I've known grown men who were forced in to running the show when dad passed away,who had no clue because dad did all the thinking and just sent them out to do a job after it was all set up for them.
 
Tim S, my first and best ever manager would only hire farm boys. He told me one time that farm boys knew how to work and when it came quitting time if the problem wasn't fixed they would stay until it was fixed. This was in the mainframe computer industry.

JimB
 
My two new bosses are like that. Filling the feed store with things that will never sell. We just dumped the U-Haul dealership. Stuff coming in but nothing going out. Yard was filling up fast.
 
And then there are those that could care less if the degree is any good.

I know a young lady that went to a trade school.
Took something that interested her but was easy.
Government gave her more money than the school cost each year threw grants and student loans.
She bought a piece of land; septic system; and a used mobile home with the extra money.
So she now owns a home debt free.
Did not pay back the student loans so they take her earned income credit every year to pay off the loan.
So basically she went to school for free and got a home for free.
 
Agree, Mark. Those for-profit schools prey on kids that cannot get into a regular college and the schools get big Gov. funding . The % of student graduation is quite low, thus more Gov. funds wasted. Basically, they are a racket. 60 minutes did an expose on them several years ago.
 
we were lucky enough to be in the position of paying for our two kids college education. my wife and I did NOT want either of them to be saddled with student loans to pay off. one is a teacher and the other in construction.

both hard working and good parents. and oh yes they are millennials.
 
(quoted from post at 12:19:43 10/08/17) Read an article this morning. People complaining about rules being rolled back concerning "for profit post secondary school". The rules would require these institutions to publish average student loan debt for each course offered, % of students who actually got employed in that field of study/training. Average pay in whatever field. Average time to complete, drop out rates and so on.

Now I understand that schools pump stuff into students from a young age telling them they can be whatever they want to be. That's a lie, a kid, who is 5'3" fully grown is never going to be a star basketball player. Nor is a kid with an average IQ going to be a rocket scientist. And they also tell kids to follow their dreams. Well if JR wants to be a rock star and can't play an instrument or sing? Or their dream is something there is no calling for in the job market? A woman mentioned in the article racked up 60K in student debt getting a masters degree in music, vocals.

IMO today, with everyone in the US having access to the internet, at home, local school, library or on their smart phone, they should be researching what they want. They should be responsible for finding out what kind of money they can expect to make in which ever career they are looking at. What their student debt is going to look like. Even if they can find a job in that field.

Guys if you have kids at home, grand kids, maybe you should talk to them. Get them thinking about what their prospects are. Make sure they know that a job makes a living. The money you make allows them to have a life!

Rick
Click to expand...

Well, the first thing people have to do is realize that, just as we have Big Oil, Big Phar ma, Big this and that, we also have BIG EDUCATION. Just because they qualify as a not for profit does not mean they are not in it for profit! Profit and growth is what it's all about. That tax free status just make it that much easier to bank their millions. Truth is, college is a racket, a for profit racket that enjoys tax breaks any normal business would never get. It's criminal in my opinion. 90% of the kids out there that do want to get a degree could do it from home on a PC through a distance learning program. But, Big Ed has pretty well squashed that option. Brick and mortar schools have a monopoly and thats wring IMO. What makes it worse is that most kids think they DESERVE 4-8 years of partying on dads nickle. It's a rite of passage.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven IMO.
 
my mistake was i did something i enjoyed for a job, i had fun, but i didnt make money to speak of. kids are impressionable , what is on tv is what they want, i remember when the show csi was on all the kids wanted to do that, then they found out all the cute little gadgets used in the show were b/s, from hollywood, kids need to show intrest in something that makes money, and is a realistic goal
 
Ditto on the Amen to James Howell's post. A couple of things I would add is that kids need to learn that they've got to start at the bottom no matter WHAT their career is. And that most of the higher paying jobs require longer hours than 9-5, 5 days a week. Want to earn 6 figures? Expect to work for it.
 
I think they should do the same for PUBLIC secondary schools. Those people are the real thieves.
 
(quoted from post at 08:28:03 10/09/17) Ditto on the Amen to James Howell's post. A couple of things I would add is that [color=blue:64ad3b2d2e]kids need to learn that they've got to start at the bottom no matter WHAT their career is[/color:64ad3b2d2e]. And that most of the higher paying jobs require longer hours than 9-5, 5 days a week. Want to earn 6 figures? Expect to work for it.
Click to expand...
That's kinda hard to do when so many kids nowdays have a FIRST car and a FIRST home that cost more than what their parents ever had! It's all about going into debt now, and there aren't any lessons of consequences. All they have to do is file bankruptcy or accept the debt, or get MORE debt to pay off the first!!

How many parents (AND young homeowners) simply walked away from their homes during the housing crunch cause they owed more than the house was worth? No sense of responsibility. Not all kids, mind you, but far too many!
 
My grandkids know everything already. One of them told me last week that they were going to be brain scientists and rocket
surgeons.......
 
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