There was a John Deere dealership near here burnt to the ground a year ago. Initial talk was it sarted from welding on a combine but someone told me yesterday it was spontaneous combustion of shop rags in the tool room. Whatever was the case oil soaked rags if improperly disposed of will heat up through oxidation. If they're in a pile and the heat can't escape the oils will ignite than the fire can spread.
- Thread starter Philip d
- Start date
Yes! Had to pull construction derbies out of a dumpster this spring while the Fire Dept. hosed stuff down. was sitting 50 feet from a 4M house renovation. Someone saw the smoke coming out of the dumpster when they arrived at the job site that morning.Found out the painters had put the rags in a bucket a few days prior! Another construction site I was on had a special container for rags and such.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
I have had shop rags start to burn for several hours after I welded something. As a general rule I don't weld are cut after 4 are not if I know I will not be in the shop for several hours.
The first time it happen I welded on a part about 2 when I went to close up at 7 I thought it looked a little smokey so went on a search for the smoke. In a closed wood work table/cabinet about 4 ft from were I was welding I found a rag smoldering. I got lucky how a spark got in there I dunno but from that point on I have a rule no welding are cutting 2 hours before closing time.
Yes that's the one,apparently the ammo didn't explode very far as it wasn't in any type of cylinder but still cause for concern at the time. The new building they just started has water tanks underground too supply a large sprinkler system. Currently they are in an old military base hangar a few miles from the normal location.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
I guess linseed oil is the worst for that.
Both can burn a place down but what Hobo is talking about is intirely different to to Philip and andy. In Hobo's example,everyone understand's that spark's will set things on fire. What isn't common knowledge is how long some material can smolder before breaking into blazes. Bales of cotton that catch fire are sometimes buried because even after soaking with water they can catch fire weeks later. A stack of cotton shop towels will do the same. Spontanus combustion is hard to believe but it happens. Hay that is baled and stacked before cured can catch fire. When oil come's in contact with compressed oxygen,the combustion is so violent it result's in explosion.
Goose
Well-known Member
When I was doing insurance inspections, when I did any kind of repair shop, one required photo and comment was how used and oily shop rags were handled. Ideally, they were put into a metal container with a self-closing lid. It was surprising how many shops simply threw them into a plastic five gallon bucket.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
"When oil come's in contact with compressed oxygen,the combustion is so violent it result's in explosion." Supporting that is the caution on your welding gas bottle gauges "Use No Oil".
On "spontaneous combustion" per se, I'd like to know the mechanism aka presence of an oxidizer and how much required, what fluid, how soaked, how packaged (environment...like loosely in a trash can, tightly packed with heavy things on top) and temperatures with respect to oil/grease soaked towels or rags. I'm real careful with such but don't have a safety can. Understanding the above can help me to be safe around the shop.
On "spontaneous combustion" per se, I'd like to know the mechanism aka presence of an oxidizer and how much required, what fluid, how soaked, how packaged (environment...like loosely in a trash can, tightly packed with heavy things on top) and temperatures with respect to oil/grease soaked towels or rags. I'm real careful with such but don't have a safety can. Understanding the above can help me to be safe around the shop.
fixerupper
Well-known Member
Yes, linseed oil is extra bad along with stains and wood finishes. A lot of finishes probably contain linseed. A neighbor finished some woodwork in their house and put the rags in a pail in a small tight unattached garage. Next morning they found the interior of the garage covered with soot along with a very smelly car interior. The rags combusted overnight but the garage was tight enough the fire didn't get big. It really opened my eyes to what can happen. [/quote]
Many don't recognize the hazard. A friend had bought a nice older building for a transportation business, set up a shop area for maintenance of the vans, good mechanic, but the oily rags were not put in a safe place. I did a lot of work on the building and mentioned this, safety can was in place immediately. Not a good thing to lose your fleet to a fire. At home, I don't use the cloth rags so much as shop towels or what have you. At the end of each job when working on a tractor or such, they are tossed in whatever container is handy, then put in the burn barrel and immediately burned. When cleaning the stove and removing the ashes, they go outside immediately and are usually dispersed at that time. I'm not innocent in following strict safety practice but not foolish enough to leave any of these things inside a building. When doing either, all other things will be ignored until I am done and know there is no concern about disposal or any fire hazard, distractions are dangerous too.
Phil9N3667
Well-known Member
Thanks for the story, I'm a bit lax on that at home myself. When I get home today, I'll get a metal bucket and use it,preferably with a lid.
37chief
Well-known Member
- Location
- California
I was doing something with linseed oil. I threw the rags in my trash can. I happened to be walking by, and the can was on fire. I put the fire out before any thing happened. After that I am very careful with oily rags. Stan
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Random chemistry cannot be quantified. To attempt an analysis that means something in terms of when it will start, how it will proceed, and what conditions must be present is possible, but the truth is it happens across a variety of materials and circumstances. Oxidation is interesting in that it can be a very slow process like rusting of iron, or it can be near instantaneous, like TNT. When heat is applied the process moves faster. Heat is generated by the process (exothermic reaction) if the heat is unable to escape fast enough to stabilize the temperature, the process rapidly enters a runaway reaction that often starts visible flame and consumes other combustibles near or in contact. I have seen steaming heaps of steel swarf (chips and curls from mill work, usually with oil on them) that were rusting radically. I have seen wet soybean bales in the interior of an open stack that were nothing but ash when uncovered. Cotton is mostly cellulose, Nitrogen, carbon, and oxygen in combinations are easily ignited (gun cotton is cellulose nitrate). Flash point is the temperature that flame based decomposition happens. The variety of materials on and in a rag pile are too complex to formulate a response that has meaning. Jim
My dad told me that a railroad car loaded with cotton bales caught fire when he was a boy around 1920. He said the bales were soaked with kerosene to put the smoldering ones out. Someone got some oil in the regulater on an oxygen tank. My brother in law opened the tank valve and got third degree burns on every bit of exposed skin. The burns healed with no scars.
47fivewindow
Well-known Member
- Location
- Davidsonville Md.
We had a service van catch on fire when a pile of those blue shop towels you have dry cleaned combusted spontaneously. They were clean but the truck was parked in the summer sun adding to the heat.
From sailplane maintenance
A demonstration of the effect of oxygen. Run the oxy side of a gas welding torch into a bucket. Then drop a lighted cigarette in.
A field example. A metal fuselage/ fabric skinned sailplane with a fixed oxygen cylinder installed. Developed a leak and was being refilled so filled the fuselage. Then a spark and there was a metal fuselage without fabric skin.
A demonstration of the effect of oxygen. Run the oxy side of a gas welding torch into a bucket. Then drop a lighted cigarette in.
A field example. A metal fuselage/ fabric skinned sailplane with a fixed oxygen cylinder installed. Developed a leak and was being refilled so filled the fuselage. Then a spark and there was a metal fuselage without fabric skin.
The spontaneous combustion mentioned is bacteria eating the oil and producing heat. In a contained area like a wad, the heat accumulates until it starts smoldering. Another spontaneous combustion happens when very fine aluminum or steel filings are exposed to water. (oxidation)
Deutz Lover
Member
There are several causes of spontaneous combustion. Coal dust, fermentation etc. can undergo this under the right conditions. The chief requirements is some form of oxidation and something that causes the heat to become trapped, but still allows air or oxygen to permeate the material.
The kinds of oils that spontaneously combust are edible oils such as linseed oil. The edible oils have double bonds (mono, double and polyunsaturated oils in their structures and these react with oxygen and form polymers or oxidize and release heat in the presence of oxygen. Lubricating oils don't generally do this, but naturally will combust if a spark ignites them on an oil soaked rag.
Omega three and Omega six fish oils are probably very prone to do this although I have not seen too many flaming salmon except on the barbie. The oils have to be concentrated to do this. Maybe a little lol?
The kinds of oils that spontaneously combust are edible oils such as linseed oil. The edible oils have double bonds (mono, double and polyunsaturated oils in their structures and these react with oxygen and form polymers or oxidize and release heat in the presence of oxygen. Lubricating oils don't generally do this, but naturally will combust if a spark ignites them on an oil soaked rag.
Omega three and Omega six fish oils are probably very prone to do this although I have not seen too many flaming salmon except on the barbie. The oils have to be concentrated to do this. Maybe a little lol?
kcm.MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- NW Minnesota
Let's also not forget about the occasional spontaneous combustion of hay in a barn. No oil necessary...unless some happens to leak from any equipment.
Deutz Lover
Member
Hay fires occur when there is sufficient moisture to allow micro organisms to grow and a fermentation reaction occurs. The hay and other cellulose containing dry plant materials have a low flash point.
Hence the book "Fahrenheit 541" by Ray Bradbury. I.e. the flash point of paper. Some people dispute this temperature, however; there are different kinds of paper and some may auto-combust more readily than others. I never tracked down the original work and read the materials and methods section.
Hence the book "Fahrenheit 541" by Ray Bradbury. I.e. the flash point of paper. Some people dispute this temperature, however; there are different kinds of paper and some may auto-combust more readily than others. I never tracked down the original work and read the materials and methods section.
Deutz Lover
Member
I goofed. The title is "Fahrenheit 451". Did not catch it when I proofed it and now cannot correct the original. Drat.
One of my idiot younger brothers almost burned his house down with rags in a garbage can. The flames and smoke woke them up at 2am.
25 years ago, had a 5000 sq ft house catch fire from the painters rags. I was listening to my scanner and all the chatter was about not letting the fire jump to the trees and brush and race up the hill; where there were another 40 monster homes....
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
Thanks Jim. Appreciate your time on this.
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