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Who knows anything about electronic ignitions?

L

Lanse

Well-known Member
So I'm trying to install a petronix pointsless system in a continental Z134 with no real success. I finally got spark at the plugs (thanks, to everyone who commented in the below thread), however the problem is that
1) Its a VERY small spark, its blue, but its tiny. Might be enough?
2) The engine will still show ZERO signs of life under ANY circumstances. I know that it has good compression and I just rebuilt its carb (likely the problem, haha). However it IS getting gas (as evidenced by the raw gas smell in the air as its cranking) but the engine won't produce even a cough. If it matters, it has a Marvel TSX carb.

Absolutely nothing.

What should I do?

I thought it was a timing problem until I loosened the distributor and rotated it 360 degrees, slowly, while cranking said engine. As mentioned, theres not even a cough. I was taught that if an engine had fuel, compression and spark it would at least show SOME minute sign of life. Was this incorrect?

I dont even have a theory as to whats wrong with this.

Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Thank you.
 

As compression rises, spark decreases... so if it will not jump much of a gap outside the engine, it probably will not spark at compression.
 
One of the best tools available to test an old point ignition system (or even one that has been converted to electronic), is a test light available from your local auto parts store for about $5. Have you used one? You also need to know the theory of how an ignition system works. Do you?
 
All electrical connections have to be shiny clean.

Did you replace the coil? Going from points to electronic you can get rid of the ballast resistor or put on a 12v coil.

Also make sure the spark plug wires and high voltage coil wire are in good shape, the insulation breaks down and leaks voltage.
 
Its all new. Pertronix flamethrower coil, has a wire running from the battery to its + terminal.

The pointsless points have two wires coming drom them, the red one goes to the positive on the coil, the black wire is going to the negative terminal on. The coil
 
Yes I have a light. I dont know much about how these systems work, and honestly I dont really care. Ive spent two days messing with this getting almost nowhere.

I just want to know how to set this thing up to work, how its even possible to show absolutely no signs of life while having everything it should need to do so.
 
Possibly the reason it didn't make a sound is the engine is flooded from cranking with no spark or wrong timing.

Typically, electronic ignition will either work, or not. Nothing in between. A good way to test spark at the plug is to break the electrode off an old plug, use it for a spark tester. That will give about a 1/4" spark test.

Do you know how to static time an engine? Getting the #1 cylinder at TDC on compression, etc? If not, we can explain. But do this first instead of guessing.

In the mean time, pull the plugs, clean them off with carb cleaner, blow dry. Let the cylinders sit open and evaporate any excess gas. If it was flooded, a teaspoon of oil in each cylinder will lube the rings, raise the compression.

Once it is timed, and the firing order is for sure correct, try it again.

A quick check of the carb and compression is to hold your hand tightly over the carb inlet and give it a crank. You should get a strong vacuum, and your hand wet with gas.

Those Continental engines are notorious easy starters, get it right, it will run.
 
It's extremely frustrating sometimes...my Ford 960 wouldn't start 2 days after I used it. Turns out the points were a bit loose and moved just enough to keep spark from plugs. Sometimes it's the smallest little thing. It's really hard to troubleshoot over the internet. But these folks here are really good at helping out. Try anything they tell you to ,even if you already did it once or 3-4 times. I get to a point I don't care ,so I take a break. Things look better after you step away for a bit.
 
A Pertronix ignition and coil should give you a nice fat, hot spark. Sounds like you have too little voltage to the coil/ignition or a bad ground. Does this engine have a ballast resistor or resistance wire from the switch to the coil? Try running another wire right from the battery to the coil. That should give you a full 12 volts to the coil and module.
 
It uses no resistor on the advice of the pertronix box.

Where and what should be grounded on this setup?
 
Okay thank you. It should be static timed. I dont understand the spark plug thing tho, cant I just set an old one to a 1/4" gap? How big of a gap should i use woh the electronic ignition?
 
I would like to know where you are checking for spark. Too many check at the spark plug when you should always check right out of the coil first if you are having problems. If you get a good spark out of coil but not at spark plug wire end you then have some place to work from. Also, always test with out engine cranking over and then with engine cranking over. You have to pin down the area of problem. I test light, a volt meter and ohmmeter is what you need.

You need battery voltage, (meaning same voltage at coil input as you get right at the battery) or very close to it. If not, you go back wards toward switch and connections etc. That is with current flowing through the coil. When things don't work out is when you need an understanding of how things work even if you don't care how they work. Not trying to be a smart aaaa but that is how it just how it is.
 
You can just open the gap, all you want is to prove it is capable of jumping about 1/4".

The electronic ignition you have is simply an electronic switch. It does the same thing the points did, open and close a circuit. Being electronic, it just does a cleaner job of opening and closing, The circuit is open and closed more precisely, no bouncing or arcing or degrading from corrosion or burning. It has no other function, no timing curve, no amplification of the spark, just a substitute for the points.
 

The only thing one of those useless lights will tell you is the event is happening that's not a bad thing but does not tell you the actual voltage strength of the spark... To know that you need a spark checker it will keep you from chasing your arse till ell fezzes over... Folks must like to do that cuzz they come up with some useless crazy ways to check spark along with excesses that won't fly...



https://www.ebay.com/i/282067636024?chn=ps&dispItem=1

They don't lie and 100% accurate if you are lucky they come with instructions... If you are cheap make one out of a old spark plug the problem is they are not accurate your call I like the one that's dead nutz...
 
Lance, you said that you 'finally got a spark to the plugs'. What did you change/fix to get that?
 
"The only thing one of those useless lights will tell you is the event is happening"

The tool you posted is one of those things that looks good on paper, but it just clutters up your tool box only to be forgotten a few weeks later. Just pull a coil or plug wire off and you can easily tell if you have spark or not. If you can't figure out how to run a test light, that's okay. It's a little too complicated for some people.
 
Lanse, it's too bad you are up around Ft Worth somewhere. I know if I could just show you how it all works you would probably be digging holes with it by now. Ft Worth isn't really that far a drive for me (about 240 miles), and I wouldn't even charge you for it. I grew up on carburetors, points distributors, and electronic ignition conversions. Once you understand them they are not so hard. I will give you props for trying to get it to run yourself even though you don't have the experience needed (at least you are trying).
 
if you have a hot wire going to the coil the pointless wire should go to the other side of the coil and the black wire should go to ground not the coil.
 
The case of the coil and the attaching screw of the Pertronix if it has a metal sleeve where the screw goes thru or a metal back, both should be to good grounds.The distributor should be tight to the engine too as that is a ground path as well.
Double check the instructions that came with the ignition parts and make sure you followed the directions/diagram for your ignition. I see there are several different ways they can be connected when I googled it. My cub uses the one that grounds one side of the module instead of it going back to the coil.
 

I can see you like to chase your rear end... Seeing spark are a light blinking only proves the event is happening it does not provide verification that the spark will light off the mixture...

Once you verify spark with a light are any other way use a spark tester to verify spark health/strength. If you are anyone else don’t get this enjoy your journey it’s going to be a long hard bumpy road….
 

You have the player you want to resolve your issue (JMOR) to help you I would grab a hold of him and answer and his questions.
 
A trick I use with engines that won't fire up is to pull the plugs and clean them up with a torch. A propane torch or even a gas stove will work. Be very careful if using acetylene, as you can wreck a plug in an instant. Squirt a few shots of oil into each spark plug hole to raise compression and lubricate the valves, then put the plugs in hot. Often you will have to repeat this process several times, as the oil and unburned gas will quickly foul the plugs.
 
About as helpful as his previous post.
The original post was about troubleshooting a contact/ignition point ignition, which is now converted to a Pertronix unit. Since the Pertronix unit just takes the place of a set of points, what would you rather use to do a complete trouble shooting on it, a test light or a tool that tells us (approximately) how many volts a coil give as an output? Not to brag about experience against anybody else here, but I've been to auto tech school and have been turning wrenches for about 40 years. I've never seen any tech have that thing in their tool box, including myself. If you feel that the tool that he recommends is so very important, go buy one.
 
What Lanse describes is how Petronix says to connect it. The ignition module needs a 12V power source that's supplied from the switch, most convenient place for that is on the positive side of the coil. The module will open/ground the coil through the black wire connected to the negative side of the coil to throw a spark (same as points opening and closing).
 

Tell me how a light tells you you have sufficient voltage to fire off the event..

40 years is a long time to be chasing your tail... :shock:

You need to get over your self confidence and learn something that will confirm a kill. I trust my judgment as I spec you do, do you trust others that don't...

Most ALL and more than likely ALL no start post need to answer one simple question and that's the health of the spark... Just how from far far away are you going to confirm that question with a blinking light on a coil/spark plug wire...

I spec you have ran across a spark event that was not strong enoufh to fire off the engine.. I guess you fired off the parts cannon at it till you got lucky :cry:

I like lights they have there place but Good Grief its so simple but made complicated by those that make guess... Why is it so hard to fess up $10 for a tester that eliminates all guesses

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1324399&highlight=spark
 
Have you ran a compression check all the spark in the world wont make an engine run if it doesent have good compression you have spark so now its time for a check
 

Ignition wires new ? We have a pertronix on one of the boys pulling tractors a 216 garden tractor and on one of the 50's . Throws a wicked fat blue spark an easy 1/2 inch.
 
If you can smell gasoline when cranking that means you have some fuel/air mixture NOT goin into combustion chamber. Or fuel being diverted from going to carb or engine.Crank it for 6 seconds continuously, then quickly pull a plug. It should be real wet. If dry you have fuel problem.
 
What should you do? Throw the Petronix in the garbage and go back to points. They used to make a good product but sometime in the last few years they changed something and now they have a junk product with a high failure rate. The solid core wire story is their attempt to cover up the fact that their ignitors are crap.
 
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