Yesterday I was welding a crack in my neighbors bush hog. We got to talking about if the bush hog was connected to the tractor there could be damage to the alternator or other electronic equipment. I have not yet had to weld on my New Holland. But would like to know if or how I could prevent a problem. Never had a problem welding on my older tractors.
- Thread starter Craig45
- Start date
Welding man
Well-known Member
- Location
- West Virginia
We always unhook the battery. The new computer tractors would be no different than a newer pickup truck. Ford say don't weld on theirs period,unless you unhook the batteries, Remove the ECM, Unhook all the wiring connections at he body control module,disconnect the ABS module and remove the dash assembly completely from the truck. Dodge and GM don't go quite that far but you better know what to unhook and where to hook the ground. Cat and cummins both say to unhook the ECM.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
I've always heard you disconnect the battery when welding on a vehicle so I've been doing that ever since.
olgentdc
Well-known Member
better safe than sorry
Case Nutty 1660
Well-known Member
Generator equipped no problem welding , if it has a Alternator you best unhook the ground,, and Dang sure do if it has any type of computer in it,, sure sometimes you get by not doing it but you still did damage that will show up in time,,,
Technically... you should unhook the ground cable. Reality is most of us do not. What you want to do either way is keep the ground clamp close to your work area and with a clear easy ground path. If you're working where current may have to travel through various joints, connections, etc you run the risk of arcing those joints or having current take an easier path through the vehicle electrical system. Then something will get fried, possibly in spite of whether or not you've disconnected the battery cables...
The remarks about removing ECM's etc are very much valid!
Rod
The remarks about removing ECM's etc are very much valid!
Rod
It is not just electrical equipment that can be damaged. IH used to have pictures of failure analysis of bearings in machines where current had passed through them from welding. One of my brother in laws had an Oldsmobile Diesel car that had starter problems with cables etc. A short time later the transmission gave up and it was diagnosed as being from high amperage traveling through parts in that transmission. Not a likely problem but a possible problem.
520 pipefabricator
Member
I'm a union heavy construction guy. The last job I was on was having all the welders run 2 leads to where they were welding so they could ground within18" of where they were welding, as opposedto grounding to the structure and running a single lead. I asked why, and I was told by the welding QC that it was to protect sensitive equipment that was hooked in to the plant. IMHO, I agree with the fella above that you should be alright by grounding next to your weld (touch a spot with the grinder to get a good metal-to-clamp bond), but as expensive as these machines are today it would be a good idea to unhook the battery, as well as grounding close to the weld
I ABSOLUTELY agree with "David G" 100% on this, "just hook ground cable near weld" and have at it.
The DUMBEST thing you can do is to disconnect the battery and leave the B+ circuit "open". Without the battery connected and it acting as a load or a big capacitor there's no limit on how high any induced voltage can rise in the B+ system.
The BEST practice is to slip one of the cables off of the battery, then clamp/Vice Grip/whatever you can do/ it to the other cable, shorting to ground any possible voltage spikes.
I just can't fathom how folks believe disconnecting the battery and leaving the circuit "open" is gonna "protect" anything.
The DUMBEST thing you can do is to disconnect the battery and leave the B+ circuit "open". Without the battery connected and it acting as a load or a big capacitor there's no limit on how high any induced voltage can rise in the B+ system.
The BEST practice is to slip one of the cables off of the battery, then clamp/Vice Grip/whatever you can do/ it to the other cable, shorting to ground any possible voltage spikes.
I just can't fathom how folks believe disconnecting the battery and leaving the circuit "open" is gonna "protect" anything.
" disconnect the battery"
Yes, I'll be sure to do that vs. leaving the battery connected to "clamp" any induced high voltages or disconnect and short the cables together and eliminate any high induced voltages/spikes altogether.
Some Cummins and likely other service documentation calls out the procedure I posted about, you gonna call the OEM(s) out, as well as me?
HOW do you figure leaving the circuit OPEN is gonna eliminate or reduce potential induced high voltage or voltage spikes?
Yes, I'll be sure to do that vs. leaving the battery connected to "clamp" any induced high voltages or disconnect and short the cables together and eliminate any high induced voltages/spikes altogether.
Some Cummins and likely other service documentation calls out the procedure I posted about, you gonna call the OEM(s) out, as well as me?
HOW do you figure leaving the circuit OPEN is gonna eliminate or reduce potential induced high voltage or voltage spikes?
ptfarmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- San Antonio, Tx
No matter what you are still putting current to any electrical devices on the tractor wither the battery is hooked up or not. The only 100% way to protect a electrical system is to remove every bit of it before welding. If you are welding on a implement, and if you are worried about damaging anything on the tractors electrical system just unhook it from the tractor. I have welded on a lot of things over years that have electrical components on them, and never unhooked the battery. Never experienced a electrical problem afterwards, I just hook the ground from the welder as close as possible to where I am welding especially if there is a bearing close by. Having a bearing between the ground, and electrode is never good for any bearing. I've seen bearing(s) that were badly damaged due to welding where the current was passed through bearing(s). If something electrical goes bad chances are it was on its way out anyways even if you didn't do any welding.
One thing you might not think about, with your face shield down you cannot see flames. I set my drop cloths on fire from weld spatter and sparks, I smelled burning but could not see any flames with my face shield down. finally smelled too much smoke, raised my shield, yelled HOLY S$$T, and bounced off the tractor heading for buckets of water. It turned out OK, I was just stupid. REAL stupid. Make sure you wet everything down real good.
The reason with the newer stuff you need to disconnect the battery is even though you can have the ground near where you are welding, there are also eddy currents which can wreck havoc with things. Think not a lot of power going through something but think along the lines of ESD.
An analogy that might help is think of a 1 inch pipe that is carrying black permanent ink under some pressure. You are going to turn on the valve and ink is going to flow into a 5 gallon bucket without the lid and then go out a drain in the bottom. Your wife is standing right next to you with her favorite white dress. How much splatter before she says her dress is ruined. Same kind of idea, it doesn't take a lot before things are ruined. The old equipment is like your wife standing there in her favorite black dress. The black dress can take a lot more.
Like the wife in the white dress you might get away with it several times, but is it worth the headache when something does splash and wreck her best dress? Better to take a couple of minutes and unhook the cable, cheap insurance.
An analogy that might help is think of a 1 inch pipe that is carrying black permanent ink under some pressure. You are going to turn on the valve and ink is going to flow into a 5 gallon bucket without the lid and then go out a drain in the bottom. Your wife is standing right next to you with her favorite white dress. How much splatter before she says her dress is ruined. Same kind of idea, it doesn't take a lot before things are ruined. The old equipment is like your wife standing there in her favorite black dress. The black dress can take a lot more.
Like the wife in the white dress you might get away with it several times, but is it worth the headache when something does splash and wreck her best dress? Better to take a couple of minutes and unhook the cable, cheap insurance.
deanostoybox
Member
Reason for disconnecting battery when welding is in case weld current finds its way through the battery it can make the battery explode. Disconnecting the battery will not in any way protect any sensitive electronic equipment.
It does because it keeps the electron and hole movement down, there is some capacitance in the wires but you lose a lot of chance of overcoming junction breakdown voltages and continual flow across those junctions when the full circuit is out of the picture.
The battery exploding is another reason but I forget about that. I work in building semiconductors and have to deal with ESD as part of my job so that is always first and foremost in my brain.
This. It's to protect the battery from rapid over-charge and explosion. Ground plane path is hard to determine, and it's not always a single path. If you are drawing 30V at 100A that's 3000 watts. Maybe 2500 watts is going direct from the frame to the ground cable, but another 500 watts is taking a different path back to the ground cable.
I would ground the + terminal of the batt to frame and if there is a large bulk connector to the ECU feeds, I would disconnect that as well. Also keep your ground on a clean spot near the weld.
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