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computerized farm equipment--more trouble than it's worth?

Z

zooeyhall

Member
So---I'm planting corn this May with my Farmall 656 and my John Deere 494A planter.

Across the road is a guy planting with a humongous John Deere, duals on all wheels, and a 24 row planter.

I noticed the tractor has stopped about 3/4 way through the field, right in the middle of making a round.

Two days later, it's still sitting there. Markers down, planting units lowered.

I learned later from somebody, that a computer "glitch" had completely shutoff the tractor. Something to do with a hydraulic sensor that is designed to kill the engine for safety reasons.

The local Deere dealership couldn't fix it, because their mechanics were only just in the process of learning the "NEW!!! AMAZING!!! Computer technology that will RUN YOUR TRACTOR FOR YOU!!!" They had to wait for a factory rep to come out and get it going.

Came across this interesting article from Wired magazine, entitled "New High-Tech Farming Equipment is a Nightmare for Farmers":

https://www.wired.com/2015/02/new-high-tech-farm-equipment-nightmare-farmers/

What do others think of this trend to stuff all kinds of delicate and problematic electronics into tractors, planters, combines, etc?
 
We really can't own the new stuff. It has to be on a 3 year lease, and get rid of it after that. You don't fix broken parts, you hook up a laptop and start swapping out entire assemblies until the problem goes away.

They - JD, CNH, Agco - own the software so they is no bypassing or backyard mechanic work on these things. When they stop support its done, won't be restoring thrm 50 years from now. It's all about who owns the software.

The features and benifits are great when it all works. When the wheels fall off - well you could put a wheel back on, but when something stops running a
No a three letter code is flashing, pull out the cell phone and your line of credit, it is going to take time and lots of money to get going again.

Progress, you know.

Paul
 
Not only farm equipment. I had a Kenmore washer I kept running for years. Just a simple timer, pull to start push to stop if needed. I got a newer washer later with electronic push buttons. Not long after the thing stopped taking commands from the little push buttons. Several washers later.I got a new top of the line GE Same problems, only a few years later. I took a chance and bought a new control board off ebay. The thing is working again. Electronic stuff in good, but do we need self driving cars, and farm equipment that takes someone from the factory to repair? Maybe the younger ones think more electronic stuff is needed, but I grew up with none of it, so I have a different opinion on electronic stuff. Stan
 
I've been running a round baler with a computer on it for 20 years now. When it works,it's great,but get one sensor out of whack and it's a huge pain in the neck. I even made a jumper wire that I can plug in to the chopper controls to run the twine arm off that if I have to,and I have a few times.
 
So funny story in line with what you're talking about. Last year we had three comebines running, a new Case, jd 9400, and jd 4420. I had to get a picture when both the case and the 9400 were down and the 4420 with a 12ft head was still going. Little fellow was doing all it could in that 100ac field...it sure did look small out there but was stI'll putting beans in the hopper.
 
Ya had a couple 1700 series Deere planters go bad in the brain, well it was the precision units computer thingy mad-do hickey that went bad. 1 took a week for them to get it straitened out, they got 50 acres planted in that week of trials. The other guy had to use his Kinze with out precision to do most it, and most was custom.
 
Was sitting at an Applebee's in town a couple years ago when a big farm show was nearby. The folks from the pressure washer stand were at the next table. Overheard their conversation.

The bosses wanted something new every year, and flush out the old designs every 7 years.

So the latest pressure washers would link in to cell phones, and other such 'features'. There were new frames because the old frames were 8 years old.

I thought, jeez, I want a washer with good dependability that shoots a stream of water when I start it up after sitting all winter. I'd prefer the same frame and bolt pattern so parts fit a long time. I don't have a clue what an app for a cell phone would offer me for a pressure washer, but that means it now has a computer controlling it and so a thing that sits in my basement over winter and works with a high heat engine and high pressure water all around it is depending on a circuit board to work for the next 10-20 years, and parts will be obsolete for it in 7 years or less......

Why would I ever buy your junk?

They also had mentioned how there really are only 3 cheap companies making pressure washers, different labels and designs but really only three places to come up with washers worldwide, so there is limited competition and no way to increase sales as the market is defined now. So they have turned into this 7 year obsolete business plan as long as all 3 companies go along with it that is how it will be.

But I didn't say anything. Just enjoyed my meal.

Manufacturers have kind of perfected the simple stuff, now they are looking for the control of using computers and design changes to keep a captive market turnover.

Paul
 
I think the computer systems are gets I just wish that all the manufacturers would get together and make plugs and a diagnostic tool that would work on all of them like auto has. Them holding on to the software is what's kill it
 
That's what the guy in the Wired article says. He fixes these tractors for a living, and he says that the manufacturers have everything so locked-down with their software, that it's impossible even for an expert to access and fix.
 
a contractor friend in town has an 873 turbo bobcat. the safety interlocks keep shutting down the bucket controls. it has been to 2 different bobcat dealers over the past 2 years, 2 independent mechanics and has eatin close to 10 grand in repair bills and nobody has been able to fix it yet. the machine is sitting in his shed. valves, solenoids, modules, switches and sensors have been replaced to no avail. he did buy the machine new.
 
I have two tractors and a combine with on board computer systems and planters with fairly sophisticated monitors and all have worked flawlessly. Glad I have them for the information they provide.
 
It doesn't matter in the least what the consumers think of all the electronics/computers.

The only thing that matters is if the manufacturers can sell it.

It appears that this type of equipment must be selling pretty well.
 
When you figure all costs and get down to net your crop will net more proffit per bushel that the new stuff. The cost to get that extra bushel or 5 bushels per acre that is thought you have to have the newer stuff to get and I am even talking the 7000 JD planter over your 494A will not make up the cost of replacing that planter and that would be cheap against replacing with new. You will never get that much more yield per acre to cover half the costs of so called upgrading.
 
For every one of those tractors sitting in the field waiting on the factory rep, there are 1000 working flawless 16-hour days.

For every one of those antique planters still putting seed in the ground reliably, there are 10 other farmers struggling with theirs because it is worn out beyond repair.

What you see in front of your face is not representative of the whole world.
 
The dealer should not sell something that he is not prepared to support. I hope the dealer paid for the factory rep.
 
Agreed. The manufacturers are building equipment for those that are buying it - and the people that buy new equipment don't want 30-50 year old designs.
 
AND head office can shut down the machine once payments are in arrears! if it has a computer you are not in control.
 
Just sent a 3 month old Stihl concrete saw back to the dealer for repairs. It was very hard starting along with no power. It is fuel injected and they have to hook a laptop to it to try and figure out what's wrong with it.If it comes back running correctly it's going up for sale
 
Engineers are Drunk on new technology that can leave you helpless when it fails,,losing precious time in planting and harvesting,,and Deere makes you sign a paper that does not allow you to sue for down time,,I see this stuff failing all the time, way more than you think,,in all different systems...
 
I agree with most all the comments with the exception that when Deere or Case stops support there will be very intelligent people offering aftermarket fixes and or complete operation systems. After a major company stops support surely their do not fix limitations will not be valid.
 
Last year both dad and I were drilling soys, in 2 separate fields right next to each other. The neighbor was just as you described with his green tractor, in the middle of the field, planter down, markers down, stopped. A while later along came a service van from the nearest dealer, then after awhile, another service van came along. Those 2 guys worked on that thing most of an entire day. We had long gotten our fields planted and moved on to other ones. When I asked the neighbor about it, all he said was it was the *@#* electronics that kept messing up.
Talking to a buddy with a new big red tractor, he was set back planting for a couple weeks with electronic glitches with his planter. I guess the planter talks to the tractor, which talks back to the planter, and the planter controls the output/flow of the tractor based on the planter's needs. He said it would go alright for a little while, then he'd have alarms going off and it would stop planting. It's not like an old one where you can keep going and just have a few skips or something. If it's not planting at 100%, it will not plant at all until the issue us fixed. In my friend's case, it was intermittent, so it was kind of a nightmare. The dealer couldn't figure it out at first, whether it was the tractor or planter, so they had them switch tractors on the planter, and it was still intermittently screwing up, so they figured out it was in the planter, and pinpointed it so some type of controller or computer on the planter.
My dad's employer had bought a new JD backhoe with the excavator controls. It had wiring issues with the controls and functions from day one. They must have had the dealer out there 25 times fixing electronic issues until it was out of warranty. A few out of pocket repairs after that, and it was shipped down the road for a lease on a different brand and less troublesome one.
Electronics can be great when they work, but when they don't work they can be a royal nightmare. Yeah, old stuff can break as well, but usually it's a mechanical failure/fix. When operating properly, they can be great time savers and efficiency increasers. But, I'm betting all of us at some time have cursed them lol. Also, like another poster said, they don't all have issues, some run great for a long time with no problems. As well as some of our purely mechanical? Nah.
 
My brother had an ex-John Deere tech come out to his shop to work on his combine. When I say "ex-John Deere" tech, I mean he was a factory John Deere tech for about 15 years and now is an instructor at a John Deere school. This guy stays in touch with the John Deere shop that used to employ him. While he was working on my brother's combine, he casually mentioned that a local farmer had his combine in the John Deere dealership for a (what should have been) simple adjustment of the header. The tech worked on the header for two full days before he gave up and had the instructor look at it. Turns out it was a malfunctioning sensor on the header that could only be diagnosed with a laptop, but the tech wasn't able to figure it out. And before you call it a rookie mistake, I know this tech and he's been at this John Deere shop for over 35 years. Last I heard, the dealership was going to try to talk the farmer into a bunch of other maintenance work on his combine, because they had no idea how they were going to bill this farmer for two full days of work that shouldn't have taken two hours.
 
If Deere or IHC none of those planters are worn beyond repair, nothing that cannot easily be repaired if they want to. Wanting to is the big thing.
 
(quoted from post at 16:18:44 06/16/17) If Deere or IHC none of those planters are worn beyond repair, nothing that cannot easily be repaired if they want to. Wanting to is the big thing.
Click to expand...

Eventually they do get to the point of costing too much to keep up. After all the farmers time is worth at least minimum wage. That has to be added into the cost of upkeep. Farmer should figure his labor while repairing something at what the local shops are paying their mechanics. Then add in potential crop loss.

I do have an old grain drill with grass boxes, needs a few parts. Really isn't worth the time it takes to chase down those NLA parts. You can have it if you come and get it

Rick
 
I'm not a farmer so I won't comment on that equipment. From my prospective the more electronics get integrated in our lives the more stupid people get. It won't be long before a person can't walk across the street without GPS. At least you can google how to change a light bulb.
 
I agree with that!

Only thing is if you are farming x amount of acres and planting with a 12 row planter, and then after a few years have more then doubled your amount of land, might just want a 24 row planter and so get a newer planter for that reason.
 
Bought new JD in 2015 and it stopped moving either direction (power reverser) Dealer came to farm and hooked up laptop said he had to run back to shop for parts. He came back worked on it 1-1/2 hrs. said it was fixed, told him to give me his cell phone # in case I needed it. He got 1 mile from farm and had to call him back, worked on it another hour and said was fixed. He got in truck to leave and it messed up again. This time he left the laptop off and started tracing wires and found a plug that the factory didn't get wire pushed in enough for the barb to catch. No problem since.
 
The biggest part of this problem is brought on by the dealers service business model and the manufacturers that promote it. Think about who ends up being a mechanic at a equipment dealership these days. The kids that can't get into a 4 year college, get wooed in by the equipment dealers offering indentured training. Make it through the program, spend 4 years earning burger flipping wages and your school is paid for. Now you can keep on drinking beer Friday night and giving your pay check to the snap on man.

Most of the guys that have what it takes to work on this equipment quickly figure out they can do much better in life elsewhere, and move on. Around these parts a hired man can make more than a dealer tech. I've done both, and now I am that "factory" man. If you get a good mechanic, even if he is stumped, I never need to show up. I can get him pointed in the right direction over the phone, and we are on our way.

Now if you look at this from the dealer's perspective, there is no reason to hire the "best" to work for them. Talented people cost more, and get more work done in the same amount of time. So the dealer takes in less, and pays out more in wages. A couple of bumbling fools in the shop that can consistently bring in high labor rates are good for the dealer.

I will give Deere credit, they have very good diagnostic manuals. And you can buy them, they are expensive, but worth it if you need the information. Most of the diagnostic information is available from the equipment monitors, no laptop required, you just need to know how to read it.
 
The newest machines here are a '95 9500 combine and '96 7800 tractor. The combine has been trouble free, but it has been on this farm since '96. The tractor has had several computer and electrical quirks but I bought it with 7000 hours. It sure isn't like buying an old 4440 with 7000 hours. I did buy a 1760 planter to hook on the tractor, but I don't see me getting any more tech advanced than that. I always laugh when I see the guys with guidance and auto steer plant a perfect field. Then they hire the Coop to come in and spray and run over half their crop in jagged lines. One of the guys even owns his own sprayer but only does his own burn down. I might not have perfect rows, but I can snap a line with the gps and follow it to spray my own crop. My savings is in doing it all myself. Sure, I use a cheap gps to plant and spray, but that's about as fancy as I get. I just can't imagine those new machines lasting like the '49 Farmall M that grinds all of my feed on an old JD 400 grinder each week. The plastic beasts will be long gone when they are 15 years old.

You know, I just happened to think about the skid steer. It's about 7 years old. It's a nightmare. Deere has been trying to make it right for the last six weeks since it caught fire. Today they came out with a laptop and recalibrated the boom. The beginning of the week they are coming out to recalibrate the hydros and remote couplers. I wish it had burned all the way up when it caught fire.
 
Could be just my opinion , but I think the equipment makers are really only trying to build equipment for the largest scale grain/corn farmers . The combines, swathers , and planting equipment is all so large now , and you need to have several thousand acres to plant/harvest each year to justify owning this size equipment . And grain loss monitors , and such can be the difference between profit and loss . A one bushel per acre loss on 4,000 acres @ $4.00 per bushel is $16,000.00 , but if you are only harvesting 100 acres , and loose a bushel per acre , so you are out $400.00. Doesn't seem to me like $400,00 would go far buying or fixing , a monitor , but it is worth the cost on the lager scale example . And all of these new ideas are always based on the largest scale operations to show how they can justify the cost benefit. More money can be made selling a few really big combines that selling a lot of smaller units, and if you short the market , the price goes up. With really only three or four manufacturers building combines in North America , They will build the combines that will give them the greatest return on investment . Same goes for many other types of equipment related to row crop farming .
I feel we have better choice in forage equipment , because of the European competition in these markets, and many more units are built . So there is little room in the cost for fancy gadgets.
 
As a farm equipment engineer my view of this is a little bit different than some. Earning profit is the #1 goal of any company and to do that it must provide a product that their customer whats to buy. If the farm equipment market was calling for basic, no-frills equipment with 30-year old technology I guarantee you that is what you'd find when you visit your dealer. (Emissions controls would be here, but the computers involved with those systems are really just a small part of a modern machine.) But, that is not what the market is demanding. New equipment buyers - the folks the companies cater to because that's where the money comes from - want machines with the latest and greatest technology and if you don't provide it your competitor will be glad to. Don't blame the engineers for designing a product that the customer wants to buy! For every one person asking for a basic machine there are five others asking for the latest technology so which type of machine should the companies produce? Of course they will satisfy the majority, especially considering the fact that the profit margins are much better for high-end equipment.

The particular machine that I am involved with has many computer controls, far more than the previous generation that it replaced. Why? Because the market demands more of everything - speed, comfort, productivity, ease of use, flexibility, etc, etc - and electronics are the most effective way to provide it at a price point the customer can accept and at a production cost that satisfies the #1 company goal stated above. There are many thousands of these machines in the field today with a combined millions of hours of operating time and the overall reliability has been very good. Of course there have been ones that have had electrical issues but these are a very small minority and percentage-wise really no more than the number of machines with any other kind of glitch. Properly designed and well-executed electrical systems can be just as reliable as any other type of system - there are countless machines of every type all around us that prove this. On the other hand, poor designs and/or execution can create reliability nightmares which have given the technology a black eye over the years. It is up to the industry to make sure that they provide the former and not the latter.
 
But after adding in all the costs to enlarge your machinery for that extra acres you will be making less per bushel harvested than you were before. And there are some 12 row planters and larger around but they are not practical, if those farmers droped spme of that land and went back ti good old 6 row planters they woyld be neting more at the end of the year. And some other person would also have a job that you are not paying the taxes to keep him on welfare.
 
Brendon you may be right, the really big operators are asking for more immediate data. Tomorrow I'm sure there will be at least one BTO that isn't. Maybe it is that Deere thinks this computer control is the coming thing. More BTO's loosing money cause the computer failed will mean more BTO's demanding equipment that keeps working. There was a time that equipment manufactures tested new offerings BEFORE trying to sell it now the manufacturers let you the buyer test it for them and maybe fix the problems. This too shall pass.
 
Good analysis. It always has been about meeting demand for many decades and at a certain price point. I remember a talk given by a Cornell professor that mentioned technology in farm equipment has always run ahead of acceptance by the farmer. That it is a guessing game as to how much the farmer is willing to pay and if that properly compensates the builder to bring an idea to market.
 
(quoted from post at 11:18:42 06/16/17) For every one of those tractors sitting in the field waiting on the factory rep, there are 1000 working flawless 16-hour days.

For every one of those antique planters still putting seed in the ground reliably, there are 10 other farmers struggling with theirs because it is worn out beyond repair.

What you see in front of your face is not representative of the whole world.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you're saying if you farm with old machinery, you shouldn't be farming at all.
 
My day job has me spending a LOT of time around the latest green planters and seeding equipment. Stuff you guys won't see for 4-5 years in some cases. The electronics and components are pretty darn good but boy does mother Deere do a bad job protecting the wiring against vibration. I tell every single electrical engineer, harness designer, and manufacturing engineer that will give me the time of day how to fix 90% of all electrical and 99% of the intermittent faults how to fix it. the fixes are simple, on every pigtail connected to a solenoid body make the pigtail on the harness just a little longer and use a zip tie to tie the harness to the solenoid body. Keep that wire from vibrating in the connector. The wires break just inside the rubber seal on a Deutsch connector right above the crimp on the pin and creates what starts out as an intermittent fault that is nearly impossible to diagnose because you have to catch it when it's not working (moving). For the price of a 6-pack of cheap beer they could save a fortune in warranty. Wish I could find someone high up enough in the organization willing to listen to a dumb engineer from a hydraulic hose supplier.
 
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