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Independent PTO speed without hydrostatic?

F

FordPig

Member
I'm not exactly sure how to phrase this question.

Were there any older tractors (1960s to 1990s) that did NOT have hydrostatic, but still allowed you to adjust the power and speed of the PTO without worrying about what gear you were in?

If I'm mowing with my rotary mower, and I'm in 1st or 2nd, often times I can hit a big clump and bog down. 1st might suddenly be too fast, but I can't slow down the ground speed of the tractor without slowing down the PTO speed. I'm not a fan of the feel of hydrostatic, were there any other solutions to this problem available?

I'm specifically looking for a Massey, Ford, Case or IH, in that order of importance.
 
Several brands had a speed reduction lever/control. Allis Chalmers D-17 D-19 Power director. and IH Torque amplifier, and MMs Apli-Torque to name a few. Jim
 
Many older tractor had independent PTO systems. Oliver was the first to come out with it but to slow down you had to push the clutch down and shift down. Farmall had independent PTO on many with a TA so when things got hard you could go from high sort of the low by pulling the TA back. AC had the power director which had a high and low and neutral. MF had the multi power which would also slow the tractor down and there are probably more examples
 
As said a lot of tractors have speed reduction but some were not as good as others. I had an allis loved the power director but if you weren't familiar with the system the mower can drive the rear end of the tractor. I have now an oliver with hydro power but this does the same as international free wheels going downhill. I think one of the better ones would be the john deere power shift if you don't mind paying a lot of cash
 
I briefly had a Ford with a Select-o-Speed, it wasn't very stout though and I sold it before it started having too many problems. If it's the same type of system you're talking about, were there any systems (powershift?) that were reliable and not a nightmare to work on?
 
Farmall or international with a torque amplifier or ford will dual power or anything power shift. Just depends on your budget but sounds to me like several more ponies under the hood would help too
 
Right now I'm using my father's Massey TO35 to mow his field, the neighbors, and my own.

I'd like to bump up to about 50HP, but before I do I want to know what to look for.
 
The JD utility tractors with an optional Hi-LO on the transmission. Models like,but not limited to 2020,2630,2440
 
I use my D-17 A/C for brush hogging. It has the high low power director but even in neutral it can/will creep a bit till real good and warm but good brakes will stop that.
 
Many tractors has various versions of power shift that would allow ground speed changes without affecting the PTO.

Dean
 

Ford 3000, 4000, 3600 4600. Easy to work on, independent PTO manual transmission but can change gears without effecting or stopping the PTO. Good one can be had for about 4K if you look.
 
There is "live pto," which allows one to push the clutch in 1/2 way, and shift between gears or neutral, without stopping the pto. Push the clutch fully in and it stops both the tractor and the pto.

There is "independent pto," which typically has a bigger hand lever that engages or disengages the pto totally and completely independent of what ever gear or clutch up/down you have.

Both these options started appearing in the mid 1950s and were often an option on tractors of that era, you have to check the machine to see for sure that it really has that feature.

Paul
 
You've got your Massey Ferguson Multi-Power. You could slow your speed in any gear by about 30% without clutching. It that the kind of thing you're looking for?
 
1954 Ferguson TO35 was available with a live PTO and does what you are asking for. Nice little tractor. I kind of wonder why Ford was never quite able to come up with a dual-range gear trans and live PTO until they switched to British tractors in 1965.
 
(quoted from post at 14:24:34 06/09/17) 1954 Ferguson TO35 was available with a live PTO and does what you are asking for. Nice little tractor. I kind of wonder why Ford was never quite able to come up with a dual-range gear trans and live PTO until they switched to British tractors in 1965.
Click to expand...

That's the exact tractor I have right now. Well, I believe mine is like a 196x, but same model.

I like the live PTO, but I still have the problem of granny (it's a high-low) being too fast sometimes. I borrowed the neighbors hydrostatic and the ability to rev the PTO independent of the everything else was really nice. The problem is that I dislike the feel of hydrostatic itself.
 
They chose not to and leap frogged the rest of the industry by developing the worlds first full power shifting transmission instead, the S-O-S, released prematurely in 1959.

Dean
 
Yes, and the Select-O-Speed was so awful, they had to drop the first design and re-do it. I heard rumors that Deere copied the general design for the PowerShift. Who knows? PowerShift worked a heck a lot better then the SOS when it first came out and had insides made by Twin Disc.
 
Most tractors with a dual-range trans are designed to travel at around .8 to 1 MPH with PTO running at rated speed. Single range tractors
are often 2 MPH or faster in 1st. If you want a gear trans, sounds like you want a three range tractor like my New Holland 1320 (Shibaura).
Deutz also has it as do many others.
 
I've been mowing with various tractor/mower combinations in various conditions for nearly 50 years.

I've used crash boxes, constant mesh, power shifting, S-O-S, and hydrostatic transmissions with ground driven PTO, live PTO and independent PTO.

Currently, I have a Kubota M9960 with dual range six speed synchronized transmission with hydraulic shuttle and independent PTO and a Kubota L6060 with hydrostatic transmission and independent PTO.

My parcels are irregularly shaped, bounded by trees and other obstacles, and some are steep. Some of the parcels have MANY trees within the mowed area, requiring continual back-and-forth movement.

Currently, I use the 6060 Hydrostat with a HD Woods 6' cutter to cut things in by making a couple of rounds where I'm constantly backing in beneath and between trees. The hydrostatic transmission is absolutely WONDERFUL for this use. Once cut in, I switch off to the 9960 with a HD Woods 7' cutter (not real fond of this cutter, and considering replacing it with either a mounted 8' or, perhaps, a 12' or 15' bat wing.)

The 148 CI, 53 PTO HP L6060 hydrostat is a dream to drive but hydrostat transmissions are inefficient because considerable HP is being converted to heat. It is thirsty. It uses more fuel, indeed considerably more fuel, to do the same work than does the 230 CI (?), 90 PTO HP M9960 with gear transmission. When working the 6060 hard, i.e., heavy cover, steep ground and lots of back and forth cutting in work, I can put somewhere between 3 and 4 GPH through the 148 CI engine operating at about 2,500 RPM. So far, I've not been able to put more than about 2 GPH through the 90 PTO HP M9960.

All said, I love my 6060 hydrostat, because I can do the work previously done with other equipment in considerably less time and it is easier on me. Even though my crash box, drum brake, live PTO 2007 MF 533 with 202 CI Perkins 3 cylinder NA engine, turned down to 45 PTO HP (2007 version of the 135) doing the same work and using the same mower would use about 1/3 the fuel, I would never go back because I can do the work in much less time and am less fatigued once finished.

Dean
 
The the S-O-S was released prematurely and against the advice of engineering. I was a design engineer for various companies, including GM for many years, and can relate to this pressure.

The engineer mostly responsible for design of the Ford S-O-S, was recruited away from Ford by JD to design JD's power shift transmission. That, in itself, should say something about JD's opinion of the technology and the design.

Yes, the S-O-S was improved over the years, significantly in 1963, and again in 1965 (added remotely accessible oil filter in inlet circuit to replace afterthought not externally accessible filter in discharge circuit and needed oil cooler), as are most designs. Ford recalled the problematic early tractors and retrofitted them with the 63 designs, which are quite reliable, given even irregular maintenance. The 65 later versions are just about bullet proof. I've owned both.

Dean
 
Yes the S_O_S that was released before it was perfected, cost Ford a lot of money. The head engineer was on vacation and ford junior released it. When Harold Brock the head of the project returned from vacation, Harold raised a ruckus and was fired.
Brock, went to John Deere and helped design the "Power Shift". So all of you deere fans have Ford to thank for making JD what it is today. Harold Brock went through Henry Ford's apprenticeship for his training.
I was able to see Harold Brock speak at a tractor show , had a question and answer session. The question I remember best was "What was your favorite tractor?" His answer was " The Ford 9-N and the JD 4020." joe
 
Dean, do you think there's anything between the old Ford S-O-S and the new Kubota Hydrostatic that gives the same sort of control as the hydrostatic, without actually being hydrostatic? And is reliable?

My Ford 4000 was either a 1963 or 1964 and the SOS was giving me troubles right away, so I sold it. I disliked the controls on it immensely too. The indents on the gear selector were tiny and they were too close together. I'd go to switch gears, hit a small bump and accidentally be 3 or 4 gears up or down, which felt rough on the machine as well as annoying. To do it right took two hands, and I had to focus on it.

I really enjoy the TO35 Massey I use right now, especially the feel of it.

My desire is basically the old smooth tractor feel, with the reliability of it, but with 50+ HP, and a better ability to control ground speed vs PTO speed.

My problem with the hydrostatic kubota I borrowed, is the same as every other hydrostatic I've ever used:

It feels jerky, noisy, and like the whole thing is working against itself. It feels like I'm losing massive amounts of power, fuel, and like if anything breaks I'm going to have to sell any future kids to help pay for it.
 
A case with case-o-matic would be just what your after. No gear changing, but with the torque converter drive the harder the engine pulls the slower you go. You slow faster than engine speed drops so you stay in the engines power band. They work very well for that and are more reliable than most of the hydro's or other powershifts of the time. A 530/630 would suit you fine. The 800/730/830 are also available with com, but the eagle hitch models require some minor changes to either the implement or tractor to make them work. The 7/830 comfort king series has standard 3pt hitch and will work like any other brand, they are larger tractors tho.
 

FordPig, you may want to look at Kabota's "Glide Shift" transmission. I have had hydrostats. I still have a dual power, I still have an SOS, I had a 16x16 electronic power shift and I had a three speed hydraulic power shift. I have had a Kubota with the glide shift for 16 years, and it doesn't have the slippage of a hydrostat, and you can select between 8 speeds on the fly, provided you are not under a heavy load. I do all of my brush hogging with this tractor.
 
Ford For years,, Back to late 1987 KUBOTA has offered another transmission that is exactly what you say you want. KUBOTA GST or glide shift is actually a GEAR transmission that is shifted hydraulically. Go some where and look at a gst tractor . However the newer Hydrostatics do not jump and whine as you described the one you used. The new ones have several features that are really nice. Switch allows you do to just what you say you want to do maintain engine speed but vary the travel speed. Where are you located.
 
No, there is absolutely nothing in common between the Ford S-O-S and any hydrostat.

The S-O-S is an automotive type design with planetary gearsets and bands to create the ratios but with a manually controlled valve body replacing the hydraulic valve body universally used by all automotive manufacturers until recently.

A hydrostatic transmission is an engine driven hydraulic pump driving a hydraulic motor connected to the tractor drive axle. There is no mechanical connection between engine and drive axle. Pump, motor, or both can be variable displacement and reversible.

Yes, hydrostatic transmissions whine because both engine and pump are operating at relatively high RPM whether the motor is operating F/W or not.

I've heard folks call hydrostats noisy but never jerky. I have heard folks call the Ford S-O-S jerky.

For what you want to do, I cannot imagine a better set up than the Kubota L6060. Yes it is inexpensive and thirsty.

My 6060 does not sound like a tractor but rather like a ZT mower. The engine operates at a nearly constant RPM while the hydrostat transmission controls ground speed. The deluxe 6060 has selectable features such as auto throttle advance (automatic throttle advance when pushing on the hydro pedal), stall guard (computer slows ground speed when conditions sense engine overload) and auto HDS (the 6060 has a hydraulic H/L similar to a power shift but accomplished by changing the angle of the swash plate in the pump, motor or both) auto HDS allows the computer to control this hydraulic H/L. I have found that the stall guard and auto HDS fight each other in certain conditions. Kubota should have done a better job designing the software controlling these features, and I expect that revisions will be forth coming.

Sounds like you want a 50 HP tractor with a gear drive transmission, independent PTO and power shift. So do I, but I found that such machines are not currently offered. I found the Kubota L6060 to be the best model for my purposes. JD makes a similar hydrostat model but I found my nearest JD dealer to be unknowledgeable, while at the same time, arrogant.

Dean
 
Showcrop I had just posted down in the post suggesting he do the same. The latter gst are nice. I have a L4740 GST that I pull a 7 ft bushog or a 15 ft flex finish mower with and it works perfect. However I am really loving the new hydro I have for one reason it has a feature called STALL GUARD . You select thast and when yhou take the loader and run in the pile the transmission lets the engine maintain speed and the loader hydraulics work stronger. Really makes a nice loader tractor. It is the largest L series made L6060 53 pto hp and really a stout 53
 
Show and JM,

I'll look into those Kubota's, but I'd really like to stay away from Japan and stay domestic. Is there anything offered domestically? And preferably older, affordable and reliable.

Dean,

When I said between SOS and Hydrostatic, I realize they aren't related, I mean something between the two technologies.

Thanks for the responses everyone, I'm learning a lot.
 
Can,t keep you away from Japan but 1987 is 30 years ago, affordable, reliable and dependable are all long suits of the GST transmission . We see some thru the shop for service that are on golf courses,with 5 and 6 thousand hours.
 
Dean My L6060 now has 278 hrs and pulling a Rino 15 ft flex mower all I can get thru it working it hard is nothing more than 3 gph . I am like you I can afford the fuel considering how much work it gets done. I use the loader and stall guard a lot and not sure I understand the comment about auto range and stall guard fighting each other. Stall guard is the greatest thing they have ever put on a hydro if one is using loader. I have been with KUBOTA since before the old L 2850GST was introduced and they sure know how to make a good tractor better. Every year something else just a little better.
 

If for nutt'N else the resale value on a bota is inviting. Tell me any other car/Truck/Tractor that holds its resale value as good as a Japan made piece of equipment. I did not say better I said the resale value.

I went hydrostatic not to farm with I wanted a good loader tractor and a good bush hog'N machine. It does both as good as it gets it just likes to drink. If I had to farm with it I would have got a GTS.
Manufactures have went about as far as they can go with automatic transmissions. Dual clutch transmissions are the future they are already out there and more on the way. They are very similar to a GTS I would expect to see this technology bleed over to tractors were we will have the best of what it has to offer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-clutch_transmission

If I were looking at a used GTS I would shy away from the early ones and be looking at a late 90's year model up.
 
We have a 4320 compact JD that does the same thing. Hydrostatic is king for pto work. This JD will go as fast mowing as can go if you set it that way. Been mowing with a 9-1/2 ft. Mower conditioner always the right speed. Electronic cruise control just like your pickup. Wish they made a bigger series. Loaned ours today to load big bales. They said they were ruined. It is 8 yrs. Old O problems.
 
(quoted from post at 14:28:33 06/09/17) Right now I'm using my father's Massey TO35 to mow his field, the neighbors, and my own.

I'd like to bump up to about 50HP, but before I do I want to know what to look for.
Click to expand...

How about an add-on turbo?
 
(quoted from post at 17:55:06 06/09/17) Show and JM,

I'll look into those Kubota's, but I'd really like to stay away from Japan and stay domestic. Is there anything offered domestically? And preferably older, affordable and reliable.

Dean,

When I said between SOS and Hydrostatic, I realize they aren't related, I mean something between the two technologies.

Thanks for the responses everyone, I'm learning a lot.
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FordPig, as they say I "Bleed Blue". I have two old Fords, a 960 and a 9000 that are used for nothing but pulling competitions. But, looking at reality, from what I see, You can't buy and USE anything of any age for less money than a Kubota. I bought a new 1986 which I traded in 2001 for a new one. I was allowed 90% of what I paid originally for the 1986
 
(quoted from post at 12:23:51 06/09/17) I'm not exactly sure how to phrase this question.

Were there any older tractors (1960s to 1990s) that did NOT have hydrostatic, but still allowed you to adjust the power and speed of the PTO without worrying about what gear you were in?

If I'm mowing with my rotary mower, and I'm in 1st or 2nd, often times I can hit a big clump and bog down. 1st might suddenly be too fast, but I can't slow down the ground speed of the tractor without slowing down the PTO speed. I'm not a fan of the feel of hydrostatic, were there any other solutions to this problem available?

I'm specifically looking for a Massey, Ford, Case or IH, in that order of importance.
Click to expand...

I've been brushhogging for hire the last 16 years and have not found a better tractor than the Allis CHalmers 175 diesel. The power director is the reason, it runs in oil so you can slip it all day and not hurt it. It doesn't freewheel on one side like the Massey (multipower) or IH TA. It is simple, mechanical and once you get used to it, works great. I also like the fact that if I get in an emergency situation the foot clutch will stop the pto as well as tractor movement, but you still have hydraulics. I have bought 2 "modern" Deeres, and neither one can mow like this tractor.
 
I know you say you don't want a hydro but. IHC 656 hydro. My neighbor has had one or two since they came out. Will do everything you want. Think they are about 65 hp.
 
I shopped the JD 4*20 series before buying my L6060.

On paper, the 4720 (I believe the model number has changed within the last couple of years (4066R?)) has a couple more HP then the L6060, even though it has a few fewer CI (It is intercooled, while the L6060 is not), and JD offers EPTO, which Kubota does not.

I have EPTO on my 9960 and love it. It would be much less useful, probably useless, on my 6060 for the work that I do because the engine would not produce enough torque to operate the cutter at reduced (EPTO) RPM.

I gave up on JD, even though I liked the current version of the 4720, because my local JD dealer was unknowledgeable and arrogant.

Dean
 
You haven't sad that I have seen what tractor you have now or what horsepower you need. Are we talking a glorified lawn mower or a big tractor that doesn't have independent PTO? Nearly every tractor made from the 60's on had independent PTO. If you can slip the tranny clutch you can get through the bigger stuff. It does sound like you need more tractor, less mower, or need to take smaller bites at one time.
AaronSEIA
 
FWIW, jm, the display on my 6060 says that I am using about 1.4 GPH, average. That said, I always fill the tank until the fuel level is a well up into the fill spout. I fill from 5 gallon cans that actually hold about 5.2 gallons according to the fuel pumps. I check the display clock when leaving the barn and again upon returning and can attest that mine uses over 3 GPH when working hard. I do not trust the GPM display in the display. So far, I have never been able to put more than 2 GPH through my M9960 but it is usually not working so hard.

Again, for what it's worth, I cut heavy cover and I cut it as close as the mowers will cut without scalping. I expect that my M9960 would be working very hard pulling a 15' bat wing cutter through what I cut. I would be crawling trying to pull such mower with the 6060.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 09:50:35 06/10/17) You haven't sad that I have seen what tractor you have now or what horsepower you need. Are we talking a glorified lawn mower or a big tractor that doesn't have independent PTO? Nearly every tractor made from the 60's on had independent PTO. If you can slip the tranny clutch you can get through the bigger stuff. It does sound like you need more tractor, less mower, or need to take smaller bites at one time.
AaronSEIA
Click to expand...

Actually I mention both twice on the first and second page, but there's 4 pages now.

I'm using a Massey Ferguson TO35 right now. I like the independent PTO for emergency stopping of the PTO, but it's too small and I know it. I'd like to get a 50 to 60ish HP instead, but before I do I'm trying to figure out what I should be looking for.

So far the consensus seems to be I should just get a newer Kubota or John Deere, [b:1e4ed206b3]or[/b:1e4ed206b3], some variant of PowerShift. I'm liking all the model suggestions for my list, such as the recently mentioned Allis Chalmers 175 among others.

If I were able to give my ideal specs, I'd be looking at:

[list:1e4ed206b3]
Domestic
50 to 60-ish HP
4x4 (might be moving to Alaska in the next few years)
with a loader
reliable
easy to work on
has the function I started this thread about
under 7,000lbs total
and under $12,000.[/list:u:1e4ed206b3]

However I'm not sure how realistic that all is, especially the weight with the loader and 4x4. 4x4 isn't even a necessity, just trying to plan ahead for Alaska.
 
Being able to shift is one thing, but you need a transmission that offers a lower speed.

The Deere Power Shift for example, only offers the same 8 speeds as the standard transmission. If you run out of power in 1st, you have no lower gear to shift into.

Massey's Multi-power, IH's TA, Ford's Dual Power all "split" the existing gears, offering some percentage of reduction below the direct drive gear.

In this case though, just some additional HP is all that's really needed. The Ferguson TO30 isn't a huge powerhouse.
 
(quoted from post at 15:32:47 06/10/17) Being able to shift is one thing, but you need a transmission that offers a lower speed.

The Deere Power Shift for example, only offers the same 8 speeds as the standard transmission. If you run out of power in 1st, you have no lower gear to shift into.

Massey's Multi-power, IH's TA, Ford's Dual Power all "split" the existing gears, offering some percentage of reduction below the direct drive gear.

In this case though, just some additional HP is all that's really needed. The Ferguson TO30 isn't a huge powerhouse.
Click to expand...

TO35. But yes, need more power.
 
(quoted from post at 07:39:02 06/10/17) I know you say you don't want a hydro but. IHC 656 hydro. My neighbor has had one or two since they came out. Will do everything you want. Think they are about 65 hp.
Click to expand...

They will drink the fuel too! I was out mowing today thinking about this topic...my little old 175 practically rolling along by itself...no hydraulic whining, no transmission heat...couldn't even smell the exhaust even though I had the pipe off the muffler because I was mowing around trees. Dumped in fuel last night after a $770 day. It took less than 10 gallons of diesel to fill it. A couple of days ago I was doing light mowing and did $1800 of work on a 20 gallon tank. Hard to beat the efficiency of this tractor! Unfortunately this new Duramax is one thirsty bugger...4mpg less than my old Dodge Cummins :(

 

Is that an Allis Chalmers 175?

How much are you charging per hour? I've been charging $50 to mow with the TO35. I noticed it took 7.5 gallons on a hard 5.5 hour job. It's a gas.
 

Eldon,

Doing some reading on the Power Director of the 175, it seems like it's not that great for constant back and forth shifting. As someone that loves theirs, is that true?

I'll be putting a loader on whatever I get, which means lots of back and forth quickly. Is that easy to do and the reviews just don't know how to operate it?

Also it seems like it's a physically HUGE tractor. Did they make a power director a little smaller? I'm wondering how difficult to get under trees with it.
 
The Power Director can be slipped pretty much all day and never bothers it a bit. I can shift it from high to low with ease on my D17 which has basically the same PD. Forward to reverse must be done with the foot clutch. Pretty sure the 175 has independent PTO so you can use the clutch without killing the mower. They are really pretty small tractors for their size. You aren't going to find a 60 horse tractor that is the size of your TO35. 175 diesel in good shape is going to cost $5-6000 or so. Weights and chains are all you would ever need for Alaska.
AaronSEIA
 
(quoted from post at 23:00:47 06/10/17)
Eldon,

Doing some reading on the Power Director of the 175, it seems like it's not that great for constant back and forth shifting. As someone that loves theirs, is that true?

I'll be putting a loader on whatever I get, which means lots of back and forth quickly. Is that easy to do and the reviews just don't know how to operate it?

Also it seems like it's a physically HUGE tractor. Did they make a power director a little smaller? I'm wondering how difficult to get under trees with it.
Click to expand...

The 175 still uses the power director for live pto, with practice you learn to find the sweet spot in neutral when shifting while the pto is running. I always use the foot clutch for shifting. When not using the pto, shifting forward to reverse is no different than any other non-synchronized tranny. This tractor looks huge because I have modified it for max performance with the 8' mower. The 38" rears are not standard, nor are the 11L-15 fronts. The 175 I roto-till with looks like its little brother, with the wheels set all the way in, 16.9 x 28 rears and 7.00 x 16 fronts. The D14, D15 and D17 are all smaller and use the power director, however the 175 feels smaller than the D17. Only the D15 and D17 were available in diesel, but they were the Buda diesels....I prefer the Perkins.
 
(quoted from post at 22:25:40 06/10/17)
Is that an Allis Chalmers 175?

How much are you charging per hour? I've been charging $50 to mow with the TO35. I noticed it took 7.5 gallons on a hard 5.5 hour job. It's a gas.
Click to expand...

I charge $75 an hour, usually come in around 30-35 an acre. Two years ago I did a 120 acre project and got down to 23 an acre :)
 
(quoted from post at 13:00:31 06/10/17)
(quoted from post at 09:50:35 06/10/17) You haven't sad that I have seen what tractor you have now or what horsepower you need. Are we talking a glorified lawn mower or a big tractor that doesn't have independent PTO? Nearly every tractor made from the 60's on had independent PTO. If you can slip the tranny clutch you can get through the bigger stuff. It does sound like you need more tractor, less mower, or need to take smaller bites at one time.
AaronSEIA
Click to expand...

Actually I mention both twice on the first and second page, but there's 4 pages now.

I'm using a Massey Ferguson TO35 right now. I like the independent PTO for emergency stopping of the PTO, but it's too small and I know it. I'd like to get a 50 to 60ish HP instead, but before I do I'm trying to figure out what I should be looking for.

So far the consensus seems to be I should just get a newer Kubota or John Deere, [b:c96530ae29]or[/b:c96530ae29], some variant of PowerShift. I'm liking all the model suggestions for my list, such as the recently mentioned Allis Chalmers 175 among others.

If I were able to give my ideal specs, I'd be looking at:

[list:c96530ae29]
Domestic
50 to 60-ish HP
4x4 (might be moving to Alaska in the next few years)
with a loader
reliable
easy to work on
has the function I started this thread about
under 7,000lbs total
and under $12,000.[/list:u:c96530ae29]

However I'm not sure how realistic that all is, especially the weight with the loader and 4x4. 4x4 isn't even a necessity, just trying to plan ahead for Alaska.
Click to expand...

It's hard to recommend a peculiar brand or model of a tractor with your specs sense what your looking for in a domestic brand was never built to my knowledge.
The afore mentioned Kubota is probably as close as you'll find.
There are several brands that will more than do the job with a standard geared transmission, the basic problem is your tractor just doesn't have enough power.
You never mentioned what size mower your using, 5 ft in heavy grass will load a little TO35 that only has around 33 pto hp, also the transmission speed has a big effect, if you have the 6 spd with hi-lo rang you can get down to 1.3 mph in 1st which is very slow and the same as 1st gear in my 4000 Ford.
If you have the 4 spd trans 1st gear is 2.9 mph and over twice as fast.
Search through Tractor Data for info on different models and brands, pay close attention to transmission gear speeds and selections, also pay close attention to hp ratings, many of today tractors are rated for engine hp which is around 10-15 hp more than it available pto hp.
For example my old Ford 4000 is 52 pto hp which is equal to most of todays 60-65 hp tractors and it also weigh's more giving it a more solid feel in rough ground.
Not trying to sell you on a Ford, it just what I have but I can easily pull a 7ft mower with my 4000 and most times it's hooked to my 10ft pull type brush hog, I mow most times in 3rd gear and have only had to use 2nd in extremely heavy grass, have never had to use 1st gear and most pasture clipping is done in 4th gear.
For something with 4x4 and a loader I recommend something in the size line of a 4630 with the standard 8x2 trans, I don't recommend their shuttle transmission has it was built by Kubota, Fiat didn't honor the agreement Kubota had with Ford and now some parts have already been discontinued.
 

It's a Massey TO35, high/low range, with a 5 foot Land Pride brush hog. It's definitely underpowered in the thick stuff.

My last tractor was a 1963 Ford 4000 with Select-O-Speed. I loved the size of it, and felt that with a high low manual it probably would have done okay, but I was surprised when mowing side by side with the Massey that it was only [i:7588ba2791]slightly[/i:7588ba2791] faster. I wondered if I was losing a lot of power to the SOS.

I'd like to run a bigger rotary, and a flail mower.

I've been looking at something like a Ford 4610SU, I won't be using the loader a ton, just occasionally, so I'm thinking the size and power would be good.

I've been reading up on every tractor mentioned in this thread though.
 

I have a 4000SU, older version of the 4610SU, great tractor with plenty of power in a small chassis, I use it a lot in areas where I need plenty of power but also need a small chassis tractor.
It has the sweep back axle like a 3000-3600-3610 that keeps it compact and very maneuverable, but this axle doesn't make for a very good loader tractor.
If you what the stay with a small chassis I recommend looking for something like a 4630 on 28 inch tires, it looks like a 3930 but has the more powerful engine, the heavy straight axle and hydrostatic steering is much better for loader opps.
Or you could just go with the standard sized 4000-4600-4610-4630 on 30 inch tires.
I will say for brush hogging I like the added height of my standard 4000 on 30 inch tires.
 
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