I have read several posts about new tractors and problems with electronics and such. Question is do any of you think the new tractors will be around as long as the old girls still out there getting it done ? Currently in our very small operation we have a Farmall a, Farmall 300, Oliver 1650, Oliver 1750, and the newest is an oliver 1755. So our youngest is 42 years old. Not saying old iron doesn't have problems, just wondering if you folks think the ones that are new now will still be around in 40-60 years. Or with all the electronics will they become obsolete quick and parts won't be available. Just a thought.
- Thread starter 300jk
- Start date
kcm.MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- NW Minnesota
When )not if) the dealers stop working on electronics issues, the tractors will be pretty much useless.
I have a second hand opinion on this. The man I got my 8N from about four years ago had just bought a new Kubota that was about the same size (physically) as the 8N. He had a shredder and some other equipment for it. At the time the N wasn't running due to steering issues that I was able to reconcile without much effort.
A couple of years after that I was visiting with him about tractors and he shared his feelings on the sale of the Ford VS his buying the Kubota. He said the new orange tractor was fine, had the power and some features that sure would have been nice on the N. But, the maintenance on the new tractor was many times what the old one was. The Ford was always ready to go, even with old gas in it and needing an oil change, etc. The new one was picky about fuel and had this big list of things on a schedule that had to be done to keep in in warranty. He has had to take it back for several things that needed fixing. Overall, he said he was glad he had the new tractor, but figures I'll still be using the 8N after his Kubota has bit the dust.
I don't know about that last statement, but I do know I can change points and do all but the most extreme fixes to the Ford if needed. Not so sure about the Kubota.
A couple of years after that I was visiting with him about tractors and he shared his feelings on the sale of the Ford VS his buying the Kubota. He said the new orange tractor was fine, had the power and some features that sure would have been nice on the N. But, the maintenance on the new tractor was many times what the old one was. The Ford was always ready to go, even with old gas in it and needing an oil change, etc. The new one was picky about fuel and had this big list of things on a schedule that had to be done to keep in in warranty. He has had to take it back for several things that needed fixing. Overall, he said he was glad he had the new tractor, but figures I'll still be using the 8N after his Kubota has bit the dust.
I don't know about that last statement, but I do know I can change points and do all but the most extreme fixes to the Ford if needed. Not so sure about the Kubota.
Pair-a-dice farm
Well-known Member
I think the determining factor in how long today's tractors will remain desirable and useful remains in the hands of today's young people. As soon as the patents expire on the current technology somebody will make an after market replacement but only if there is a market for that replacement. We older guys have a hard time understanding all the electronic gizmos that run today's equipment. The younger generations may have a better grasp of how it works. I remember my grandfather talking about when the 1st automobiles and tractors came about. Most of the men older than him said the same thing about the newfangled horseless carriages. I doubt that I see what happens but some of the younger folks are witnessing some pretty fantastic times when it comes to technology. How they use that to their advantage will mean who are the next super successful businessmen.
When Dad got a new 4010 jd in 63. People were saying the same thing. Power brakes that never wear out and never needed adjustment. Power steering with no mechanical hookup to the wheels. I think it is safe to say they have had double the life of the older tractors. But I have a WD 45 Allis I kinda like but it hurts me to get on and drive it anymore. I think they are just like pickups. More power ride better and get better milage.
coonie minnie
Well-known Member
My local dealer services some 7000 and 8000 series Deeres with 15000 hours on them already, most with engines untouched. The mechanicals can be very good. The electronics is the question... but if there is a need somebody usually finds a way to service stuff.
I always find a little humor in that, on here, most everybody complains about computerized tractors and electronics, yet we are sharing those feelings on the internet, via a computer or smartphone
I always find a little humor in that, on here, most everybody complains about computerized tractors and electronics, yet we are sharing those feelings on the internet, via a computer or smartphone
To a certain extent the dollar will determine what happens .. If the tractor is worth the expense it will be fixed. Doubt that the manufactures will just drop the units if there is money to be made. Then as someone had already said will always be an aftermarket waiting around the corner for that dollar.
pete black
Well-known Member
Had my share of older tractors and true, reliable, easy and efficient to operate. Perhaps maintenance is more costly on the newer but my 2008 Kubota grand l is not great. I purchase all my fluids and filters and perform the maintenance myself. As of this date I have not had any problems, dealer involved or myself. Now as to old versus new; old is fine, simple to work on typically by the owner and most parts are readily available. Down side is, parts availability may become less, skilled technicians for these tractors may become less and then there is the aging body coupled with tractors that require more manual exertion and physical dexterity to operate. Then there is the safety side of old versus new. None of my older tractors had any safety features what so ever except for the neutral safety for starting. I do not regret going with anew tractor for: the Kubota has a level platform that enables easier entering and exiting, it has hydrostatic drive that is a pleasure to operate, it is front wheel assist for when needed, it has a fel which enables me to do a lot of work, it has a superb seat that adjust forward/backward and has armrests, lift arms can extend several inches for less precise placement of tractor when changing implements, it has good steering, brakes and lighting. Also, why worry if a tractor will be around in 35 to 40 years? For this aging male with increasing limitations the new tractor enables me to continue to enjoy working a tractor safely and longer and not near as tiring. Just my thoughts, most may differ.
Bruce from Can.
Well-known Member
- Location
- Woodville, Ontario, Canada
I don't think the new tractors will be around as long , folks like me that will go out and buy a new tractor , will run a lot more hours on them in a short span of time . I have put some time on my 930 Case planting this year , and today we chopped hay with the IH 966 , while our 1030 Case pulled the wagons in . We use our tractors for the jobs they were built to do , not just a bit of grass cutting and wood hauling , hard to wear them out that way .
ditchwitch
Well-known Member
I think the new tractors will never put the hours in the field the old ones did. Because i believe everything is being made disposable. Meaning just not to be made to last as long. Now i do believe the newer tractors move more earth in a pass than the older ones. But they want last as long
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
Times change, economies change, needs change...
Back 60+ years ago most tractors went to small operations. Many of those tractors left the dealership to remote areas, never to be seen or serviced. It was essential that the tractor be field serviceable with basic tools and skills.
Today things have changed, BTO's demand the biggest and the best, the mfgs are glad to offer them what they want. Why not? They can make more money, then make a killing on specialized parts, keep everything tied up with pattens, add EPA rules, and you have the prefect plan for obsolesce!
Even the small operations demand more than the previous generations. People want power and comfort. It comes with a price, more accessories and options cause more complex engineering, more to go wrong.
With the proliferation of electronics, not that I am against electronics, but it seems to have been taken to extreme! Building even the simplest machine now incorporates some kind of circuitry. Commonly everything is tied to a CPU, an essential component that put the owner at the mercy of the dealer. By controlling the price and availability of a single proprietary component, they have you right where they want you!
Back 60+ years ago most tractors went to small operations. Many of those tractors left the dealership to remote areas, never to be seen or serviced. It was essential that the tractor be field serviceable with basic tools and skills.
Today things have changed, BTO's demand the biggest and the best, the mfgs are glad to offer them what they want. Why not? They can make more money, then make a killing on specialized parts, keep everything tied up with pattens, add EPA rules, and you have the prefect plan for obsolesce!
Even the small operations demand more than the previous generations. People want power and comfort. It comes with a price, more accessories and options cause more complex engineering, more to go wrong.
With the proliferation of electronics, not that I am against electronics, but it seems to have been taken to extreme! Building even the simplest machine now incorporates some kind of circuitry. Commonly everything is tied to a CPU, an essential component that put the owner at the mercy of the dealer. By controlling the price and availability of a single proprietary component, they have you right where they want you!
farmer boy
Well-known Member
When the 8000 series Deere's came out, due to all the electronics, everybody said they wouldn't last 20 years. 20 years in, they are one of the most sought after tractors on the market today. They're very comfortable with an extremely nice cab, no emissions controls to speak of, and are still large enough for most operations today. There's really no downside to them. The manufacturers are still capable of building a very reliable tractor, and for the most part they do, but the EPA is sure making that difficult. CNH has the best handle on it. Deere and others have some catching up to do, and with time and technological advances, we'll get there.
Eldon (WA)
Well-known Member
(quoted from post at 18:40:32 06/08/17) My local dealer services some 7000 and 8000 series Deeres with 15000 hours on them already, most with engines untouched. The mechanicals can be very good. The electronics is the question... but if there is a need somebody usually finds a way to service stuff.
I always find a little humor in that, on here, most everybody complains about computerized tractors and electronics, yet we are sharing those feelings on the internet, via a computer or smartphone
Electronics in vehicles and laptops take a lot less abuse than farm and industrial machinery...I would rather have a tractor without and there is no reason you have to have them other than the epa which is a bunch of crap.
As a man who works on construction equipment for a living, I'll say this. Based on the what my customers are told, a modern machine, used 8 hours a day as intended, is 'houred out' before it's even paid for, given a typical 60 month loan.
That said, based on the experiences of my customers, the new, electronic machines that are being made today will be scrapped, and become new, even more electronic, machines again, typically within 10 years. At the same time the older, mechanical machines will still be running.
I could go on about all of the things I have seen that leads me to this conclusion, but I don't think anyone wants to read an A to Z of the Encyclopedia Britannica of the 'engineering screw-ups' I've run into over the past 20 years.
That's not to say that the older equipment I've worked on don't have some really stupid crap on them, on occasion, too, as they do, but the newer stuff simply takes the level of stupid to a whole new level. Seriously, I've read articles in an engineering magazine I get where they outright say they essentially added 10 parts to make something simpler.
It's to the point I think most engineers are coming up with new stuff now, not because it's better, but simply as a way to justify their jobs.
That said, based on the experiences of my customers, the new, electronic machines that are being made today will be scrapped, and become new, even more electronic, machines again, typically within 10 years. At the same time the older, mechanical machines will still be running.
I could go on about all of the things I have seen that leads me to this conclusion, but I don't think anyone wants to read an A to Z of the Encyclopedia Britannica of the 'engineering screw-ups' I've run into over the past 20 years.
That's not to say that the older equipment I've worked on don't have some really stupid crap on them, on occasion, too, as they do, but the newer stuff simply takes the level of stupid to a whole new level. Seriously, I've read articles in an engineering magazine I get where they outright say they essentially added 10 parts to make something simpler.
It's to the point I think most engineers are coming up with new stuff now, not because it's better, but simply as a way to justify their jobs.
Will they be here in 60 years? I don't know. A lot is going to have to do with the farmers. Are they going to be willing to do the repairs needed to keep a 60 year old machine operational or are they going to be a money pit?
As far as collectors? It's dying as most of us know and has been discussed here before. That too can affect how long a tractor is good for. Also sales volume will be a factor too. As an example the CaseIH Magnum 180. How many have been built and sold? How many have already gone to scrap because of accidents and fires? If the total numbers are low for production they won't make parts because it isn't profitable. Even with old tractors you see it today. Something like a Farmall H or Ford 8N you can find lots of parts because there are still a lot of them out there. Other tractors no so much for the same reason. Not enough sales to justify production of replacement parts.
Too many factors to figure out what's going to happen.
Rick
As far as collectors? It's dying as most of us know and has been discussed here before. That too can affect how long a tractor is good for. Also sales volume will be a factor too. As an example the CaseIH Magnum 180. How many have been built and sold? How many have already gone to scrap because of accidents and fires? If the total numbers are low for production they won't make parts because it isn't profitable. Even with old tractors you see it today. Something like a Farmall H or Ford 8N you can find lots of parts because there are still a lot of them out there. Other tractors no so much for the same reason. Not enough sales to justify production of replacement parts.
Too many factors to figure out what's going to happen.
Rick
Mark - IN.
Well-known Member
As you drive your vehicle down the road and pass other vehicles coming or going, ask yourself how many are '57 Chevys, '69 Mustangs, '72 Cudas and the sort. My guess, not many. They're out there but not in daily use no different than tractors and implements. Oh, I'm not saying that old iron doesn't get used daily on smaller farms, but on larger farms the new technology that has GPS, much larger and stronger power that gets better fuel economy and the sort will never go backwards any more than Windows 10 will be replaced with straight DOS driven and asked applications. Problems here and there are not going to dictate going backwards.
4520 Deere? I have one but aint going to fool myself into believing that it will ever shake or move the world. I use it in the fields. Most that have them use them as mobile but stationary power sources and use their much newer more effective tractors in the fields.
Mark
4520 Deere? I have one but aint going to fool myself into believing that it will ever shake or move the world. I use it in the fields. Most that have them use them as mobile but stationary power sources and use their much newer more effective tractors in the fields.
Mark
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
What's a person to do. The new tractors aren't repairable with the electronics and the old ones aren't repairable with the crappy aftermarket parts either.
Seems most "newer" tractors are getting a lot more hours than a lot of the older stuff did. Its not uncommon to find 30 - 40 year old tractors with 6000 - 9000 hours on them (some a lot less). Last summer my younger brother traded his oldest tractor, a 7240 Magnum that he had bought in 2002 with only 900 hours on it. He had run it 14000 hours without needing an overhaul and replaced it with a Magnum 225 that appears to be headed in the same direction. And that tractor is only used for field work - the hours are not being "padded" with chore work. He has two other tractors for feeding hay and unloading trucks.
Agreed. I remember our 1980 1486 with a digital dash and soft touch screen buttons was supposed be dead after a five years. Neighbor that bought it still uses every summer to bale hay - although I think the working AC has more to do with its value to him than anything else.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Shade tree mechanics/farmers could repair the older stuff so the labor part wasn't a big deal.The tractors being sold now with the complicated electronics can only be repair by a fully
equiped shop at the rate of $75 to $100 hr.That means a lot will be junked because they aren't worth the repair bill.Plus lots of plastic and fibeglass these days that'll fall apart on new stuff.
equiped shop at the rate of $75 to $100 hr.That means a lot will be junked because they aren't worth the repair bill.Plus lots of plastic and fibeglass these days that'll fall apart on new stuff.
Forty and sixty years ago tractors were designed for about 10,000 hour life figuring they would be traded off in five to seven years, obsolete in ten years and worn out in about 20 years. That met the needs of the new tractor buyers at that time. Productivity and reliability were the primary considerations for new tractor buyers. Trade-in value and usefulness for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th owners was secondary to new tractor buyers. I'd be curious what the design life and new tractor buyer's expectations are for today's field tractors (not the lighter consumer grade tractors used on estates). I'd guess today's design life is around 50 percent longer than it was 50 years ago: traded off in ten years, obsolete in 15 years, worn out in 30 years?
Back in those days tractors were still built in 1,000's and 10,000's of each model per year. We see the surviving tractors that generally were used less hard than average or were maintained longer than intended for sentimental reasons. Today's tractors are built in much smaller numbers and seem to be worked harder than tractors were fifty years ago.
Back in those days tractors were still built in 1,000's and 10,000's of each model per year. We see the surviving tractors that generally were used less hard than average or were maintained longer than intended for sentimental reasons. Today's tractors are built in much smaller numbers and seem to be worked harder than tractors were fifty years ago.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
New vs old. Today was a case in point. 1979 JD 4230, row crop, 6 cyl, long wheelbase, 2wd, vs 2007 Branson 6530, compact, 4 cyl, 4wd, cutting hay with a 3 pt, side cutting mowing device: Absolutely no way would that JD do the job as I just did on my irregular field. However I do have my Ford 3000 hooked to the crimper and 2000 hooked to the 660 JD rake, both mid 60's vintage, actually tractors and attached implement of the age of the tractors.
Newer tractors will never last like the old ones. Too much electronics, plastic and design variations. I purchased a 2006 NH TC45A new and not very many were made.
I have already purchased parts from NH that I think will go bad down the road and won't be available to buy in the future.. various sensors, springs etc etc. I spoke with a local NH tech and he told me what he sees going bad or wearing out. I only put about 50 hours on mine each year so I want it to last.
I have already purchased parts from NH that I think will go bad down the road and won't be available to buy in the future.. various sensors, springs etc etc. I spoke with a local NH tech and he told me what he sees going bad or wearing out. I only put about 50 hours on mine each year so I want it to last.
As with yesterdays 40-100 year old tractors, parts will be available if demand supports it. as with the old stuff we use today, if no demand for an aftermarket part, that part will not exist.
Some with more than ordinary skills will make or adapt an existing part to fill a need.
Watching the antique radio / TV repair / rebuilder guys, I ran onto an odd dressing but extraordinary little guy who will go as far as making a new vacuum tube for his antique rebuilds. I was amazed to watch him blow the glass tube, fabricate the metal internals and fit them together, evacuate / seal the tube and have a working replacement that does not exist anywhere else on earth. Amazing talented guy.
Search you tube for glasslingers videos.
Some with more than ordinary skills will make or adapt an existing part to fill a need.
Watching the antique radio / TV repair / rebuilder guys, I ran onto an odd dressing but extraordinary little guy who will go as far as making a new vacuum tube for his antique rebuilds. I was amazed to watch him blow the glass tube, fabricate the metal internals and fit them together, evacuate / seal the tube and have a working replacement that does not exist anywhere else on earth. Amazing talented guy.
Search you tube for glasslingers videos.
I don't know about farm equipment, but when it comes to construction equipment, most machines are considered 'houred out' before they are typically paid off. In other words, if a machine reaches 5 years, or 10,000 hours, the manufacturer says it's time to get a new one.
The bad thing about this is that around the 5000 hour mark, at least for CAT excavators, you can expect to spend around $5,000 to $15,000 to rebuild the main pump.
On top of that you have regular maintenance costs, as well as repair costs for breakdowns, and all of that topped off with the downtime, and lost profits caused by those breakdowns.
It doesn't take much for all that money spent just keeping a modern machine running to add up to far more than the claimed 'fuel savings' that are typically the reason claimed for the majority of the technology being used.
The bad thing about this is that around the 5000 hour mark, at least for CAT excavators, you can expect to spend around $5,000 to $15,000 to rebuild the main pump.
On top of that you have regular maintenance costs, as well as repair costs for breakdowns, and all of that topped off with the downtime, and lost profits caused by those breakdowns.
It doesn't take much for all that money spent just keeping a modern machine running to add up to far more than the claimed 'fuel savings' that are typically the reason claimed for the majority of the technology being used.
LOL you nailed it! I have a friend who bought a new fuel efficient car not long ago. He traded in a paid for 7 year old car that got about 35 MPG. He purchased a car that gets about 42 MPG. Was bragging to me about his fuel economy. Guy is nuts about keep track of all his spending. I ask him what it was costing him to drive his old car per month. Was a pretty low number, less than 200. I ask him what his new car payments were then how much he was spending on gas then knowing he financed it if he had to upgrade to full coverage insurance. Total between payments, extra insurance cost and gas in right is about 600 a month. Now he gets mad at me every time I ask him just how much is he saving on that new car :lol: ! Local banker, my buddy and I have known each other 40 or so years. The banker told him that he will never recover the added cost of his new car is he keeps it for the life of the car!
Rick
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
Now that is truly amazing given the required electrical parameter requirements for the "socket function". All sorts of variables in the actual material selection, dimensioning and components to get the required result. Truly amazing. Now if he's just making a diode rectifier no biggie. But something like a "Beam Power Pentode" worth about 10 watts plate dissipation in a class B push pull circuit to drive a 20" woofer with a 10# magnet with <1% distortion, 20-20kHz bandwidth, then that is surely a marvel.
Butttttt if he does he does and hats off to his craftsmanship and ingenuity. Truly amazing.
Butttttt if he does he does and hats off to his craftsmanship and ingenuity. Truly amazing.
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