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Ford Explorer...long shot

R

rrlund

Well-known Member
I'm not having a heck of a lot of luck on a Ford forum either,so I'll put this out there. I've got that 2002 Explorer that got dropped off in my yard and I've been fooling with it from time to time trying to get it running. When I first start to crank on it,it starts right up then dies in about a second. It still has spark after it dies,but won't even fire on ether. If it sits for 30-45 minutes,it'll fire for a second again.
I put a new crank sensor on it and it didn't make any difference. This morning I went out early to do chores before the rain started and I noticed the reflection of a red light blinking in the low center of he windshield. The light must be down in the front of the dash.

That got me wondering if there's some anti theft device that's malfunctioning? There's no manual in the darned thing anywhere,but the wife's Explorer Sport Trac is the same year and same engine,so I read that. It tells how to code a new key for the anti theft,but not how to trouble shoot it or bypass it. The battery has been out for a year,so unhooking a cable to reset the computer would be a futile attempt. Anybody want to share in the mystery by floating an idea out there?
 
Try you clean air sensor in the breather tube just behind the filter. My expedition did the same thing. Clean it with electrical contact cleaner and see what happens.
 
I've tried it with that sensor plugged in and unplugged. There isn't even an air cleaner on it. It had a K&N and it's gone. Just the sensor laying there hooked to the wire. Something has to be throwing off the timing as soon as it starts. I plugged another wire in to the coil,plugged a spark plug in to that and clamped it to the negative battery cable. I had the wife crank on it and told her to hold it right to the start position after it started and keep it there until I told her to stop. The spark never stopped even after the engine died.
 
It could have an anti theft system, factory or aftermarket.

But if that is what is killing it, it has to either stop the fuel, or the spark, or both.

What is strange, you say it still has spark, but won't start on starting fluid.

That tells me it may be flooding. Something dumping fuel, like the wrong signal to the injectors, fuel pressure regulator dumping fuel. Might put a pressure gauge on the fuel rail, see what is happening, do a plug check as soon as it dies.

Another thing to check, possibly a totally plugged exhaust.
 
I don't even know. It's raining right now and I don't want to go find out. I do know that you have to take the key out or the bonging noise won't stop. On the Sport Trac,it'll stop with the key in when you shut the door. On this one,it won't.

I never noticed that red light blinking in the windshield of the Sport Trac though. Not saying it doesn't,but you'd think after owning it for fifteen years,one of us would have noticed.
 
Do you think something could be changing the signal so it's firing to the plugs at 180 off? So it's actually firing on the exhaust stroke?

All I've been told about it was that it died on the road. My nephew told the guy that the timing chain broke because it happened to the 4.0 in our Sport Trac. He just assumed that was what happened to this one. The Sport Trac wouldn't fire at all when that one broke.

I stuck a screwdriver down in the oil fill hole in one tappet cover and through the cam sensor hole in the other side while the wife cranked on it. The cams are turning. When it starts,it's smooth and seems to be running on all 6. If the problem was in the fuel delivery,you'd think it would at least cough on ether. Despite having spark,there's no sign of life.
 
Bingo! Well maybe anyhow, just a SWAG.
Without an air cleaner installed, air is going directly into the throttle body throat, bypassing the sensor. Without an airflow signal from the sensor, the computer won't turn the injectors on.
Have no idea why it won't fire on smelling salts.

Willie
 
OK,I manned up and went out there. There's no theft light in the cluster like there is in the Sport Trac,but that red light reflected in the windshield stops blinking when I turn the key on.
 
From what I've read online,without the air flow sensor,it should run,but run rough. I don't know if it was installed in the K&N. I went up to my nephew's to get it and he said he took it off and sold it. He had no idea what ever happened to the original. It fires and dies the same way with or without the sensor plugged in.
 
Agree completely with the air flow sensor, it has to have air flowing past it. Also check under the dash for a rats nest of aftermarket wiring, probably an add on anti theft. Seen them go out many times when past 8 years old. Yank it all, will help in any case. You might even check under there for a very tiny toggle switch hanging from a wire, this may shut off the anti theft.
 
Can you look in the oil fill and see the cam followers? I had a 2.4 DOHC in a Pontiac that would act sort of like that, except it wouldn't fully run. It would try to hit and pick up, but it always had spark. It had sheared the aligning dowel on the cam where the sprocket goes on, so the cam chain sprocket was spinning on the end of the cam, where it would occasionally grab. An idea anyway...
 
The only wiring problem I can see is that somebody has taken the radio out. But as far as I know,that happened after it died.
Wouldn't the air flow sensor be getting a good signal by just hanging out there in the open air? Or would it get the right signal if I blew on it or blew compressed air over it? Something has to be messing with the timing for it to have spark but not ignite ether. I suppose it could be the cam sensor,but I just hate to keep throwing things at it without a better idea. I thought the crank sensor would do it.
 
Scratch that, saw below where you said cams are turning. How about aftermarket keyless start? The things are a wiring nightmare as well since most are all routed in with anti theft and safety/ ignition checks before it will allow it to start
 
It fires and runs so darned smooth when it starts. It's not just firing while I crank on it,it actually starts smooth then instantly dies.

Those things have three chains in them. There's one in front from the crank to a shaft,the shaft runs to the back of the engine,then there are two chains. One to each overhead cam. What happens to them is that the chain guides wear out,then they slap and the bolt that holds the gear to the back end of that center shaft breaks and the gear comes right off so neither cam turns at all. I don't remember off hand,it's been four years since I had one apart,if there's just a pin that comes out of the end of the hub and keeps the gear timed,or just how it stays on one place with the bolt holding it on.
 

4.0 check that this stub on the camshaft is still there if its broken off the camshaft sensor cant read the position of the cam here's a pic of a 4.0 cam sensor stub circled putting a screwdriver down in the hole is how they sometimes get broke.

47063.jpg
 
Do you think that just a bad cam sensor itself would cause it to do what it's doing? I thought I had another tappet cover around here with a sensor in it so I could check it without spending any more money,but I don't seem to have it. At least not where I can find it.
 
There's a kit to set the timing (but a real Pain if either camshaft or timing chain is off.If you need the number let me know). Then timing is run by the computer 4.0 has one chain on RH rear and 3 chains in front if its a 4x4 two if rear wheel drive but could still have the balance shaft chain with a Rear wheel drive and have 3 in front. Check it with a timing light #1 is front RH side 4.0L
PCM keeps it at 10 degrees before TDC. Should be able to see it just cranking it.
Byron
 
Why would it fire,then not fire again for 30-45 minutes? It's like some relay or something has to reset itself.
 
With no signal at all from the cam sensor I just don't know that anyone's guess. If that piece is broke off it would run but poorly. The broken piece could get under one of the roller rockers and jam it up.
Byron
 
Not saying for a minute that I'm not wrong,that's why I'm asking,but it sure seems electrical,sensor or computer related,not mechanical as was originally thought. Somebody on the Ford forum said he had one that did that and it was the wires to the knock sensor under the intake. He said a wire was bare and shorting out. The only wires I see running down there are hanging from the top and aren't touching anything.
If it was a daily driver that I had to get going,I'd be frustrated. For that matter,I'd take it somewhere and make it somebody else's problem. It's just a mystery I'd like to get figured out. If it doesn't run,it's junk sitting here. If it does run,it's a spare. lol
 
OK,that's not what I was seeing when I looked. I haven't taken the intake off. Odd thing now. It's wet outside. I tried it twice and instead of starting right up and dying,it kind of backfires. It's like what was firing at 180 off is firing just halfway in to compression or something. Could be just a bare wire that's wet and shorting out more now I suppose.
 
Lots of possibilities.

Some vehicles have an antitheft system in the radio. If you put in a non-factory radio you need an adapter to bypass that function. If someone took the radio out did they take the adapter, too?

If you had a bad knock sensor "I don't think" the engine would start at all. We had a car that needed premium fuel. The knock sensor would shut the engine down on regular at the first pop because it came too soon.

Sounds like pieces are missing and wiring has been mangled. How about vacuum hoses? One or more of them might matter. I'd go "test drive" a running example and compare piece by piece under the hood. A salvage yard should have intake pieces.

I agree with taking a look under the hood and dash and removing any extra wiring like from an aftermarket remote doorlock or antitheft system. I had trouble with every one of them I have owned.

Good luck!
 
(quoted from post at 20:10:27 03/25/17) OK,that's not what I was seeing when I looked. I haven't taken the intake off. Odd thing now. It's wet outside. I tried it twice and instead of starting right up and dying,it kind of backfires. It's like what was firing at 180 off is firing just halfway in to compression or something. Could be just a bare wire that's wet and shorting out more now I suppose.
Click to expand...

That's a V6 now so you know
 
Apparently it ran with that aftermarket radio in it. They took it out after it died and they thought it was junk.
I've got an 02 Explorer Sport Trac with the same engine. This one's an Explorer XLS. I guess I need to just start unplugging things from that one and see if I can replicate the situation. If I screw that one up the wife's gonna have my neck though.
 
I don't remember what the passive anti-theft system ( PATS ) does specifically for the 02 exploder, some disable injectors, some disable starter and some do both depending on year/model.

Here is a little info about the red light on top if inst panel

-Key on or start ,red light should come on for 3 secs then go off (prove out), if light is flashing rapidly, or stays on then you have a problem.

-Light flashes every 2 seconds when key if off or removed, this is normal.

If you suspect a problem with anti-theft, you will need a diagnostic scanner of some type to read codes in the PATS module, but a simple code reader on the PCM would give you a code P1260, letting you know a fault is in the PATS.
 
No. If I get tired of messing with it,or I need it,I'll have to take it somewhere and have it scanned.
 
Might be a good idea to borrow a scanner or just go buy a cheap one.

The more you unplug stuff, it will be setting a bunch of codes, won't know which one is for real.

What I've dealt with on the MAF sensor is it needs to be there and in the air flow to run.
 
(quoted from post at 04:40:23 03/26/17) Might be a good idea to borrow a scanner or just go buy a cheap one.

The more you unplug stuff, it will be setting a bunch of codes, won't know which one is for real.

What I've dealt with on the MAF sensor is it needs to be there and in the air flow to run.
Click to expand...

You can unplug it, the puter will use a base/de-faught program to run it... If you suspect a MAF issue unplug ot and take it for a ride if the symptoms are gone suspect the MAF...
 
That's why you need the test drive truck. If you unplug something and the truck dies, you can plug it back in and make sure it starts and runs again. If you keep unplugging one thing at a time and then plugging it back in, you can keep going until well,
you know....
 
The light in the dash is the aftermarket alarm light. I am thinking maybe a bad fuel reset button,rear inner fender.
 
A key without the proper computer chip will start the vehicle but it will not stay running. Is the key the correct one? Is it programed for this vehicle?
we had a valet key that started the Jeep, but it shut off immediately.
SDE
 
My guess, camshaft sensor. That signals ing and they go junk easy. Its half a distributor and drives oil pump, they get nasty n wore out.
It's just a hall effect switch.
The key thing, you can disable it but you have to basically make a bypass loop to go around the pats.
Mine won't let starter engage. Theft light blinks too.
 
"No. If I get tired of messing with it,or I need it,I'll have to take it somewhere and have it scanned."

I have a scanner if you want to use it. I might even deliver. ;)
 
The cam sensor drive, goes out. If it's got a 3.0,4.0,5.0 they all have them. Its the sensor that tells computer input and works with crank sensor as input to ecm. It will fire n die. It get signal to start, but loses ign input n shuts down and don't start.
Rust dust, bad bushings, pin on gear sheered, etc.
 
First off, there are a lot of assumptions going on here.
It appears to have been established that it has a V-6 engine.
BUT, there are TWO V-6s that were available that year. There was the SOHC engine which is VIN code "E" and then there is the "pushrod" engine, VIN code "X."
Right now, I will go on the assumption that it is the "E" engine.
Cam position sensor can cause the condition you have.
Crank position sensor will cause a strictly no start. Won't even pop.
PATS Anti-theft can cause this problem. "THEFT" light should blink slowly when the engine is off and key removed. When attempting to start it, the "THEFT" light should go off after about 10 seconds or so. If there is a problem with the PATS system, the "THEFT" light will blink rapidly when you try to start it.
As far as I know, the knock sensor will not cause a no start condition. I might be wrong on this one, but I am more inclined to think that this is not your problem.
Any missing sensors could also be a problem. I seem to recall that you had an unconnected connector in the vicinity of the air cleaner. This would have been for the mass air flow sensor. This is a VERY important sensor, as it is the main sensor that the computer uses for mixture control. Depending on the engine and the programming in the PCM, it will have a profound effect on the engine's starting and running characteristics.
Another possibility is a plugged exhaust system. could the catalytic converter have been melted at some point?

Tests I would make are:
Fuel pressure first.
Scan for codes next.
Fix any obvious problems next.
Check for plugged exhaust. Just loosen the pipe to manifold bolts. See if it makes a difference.

One final word of caution: "farmer fixes" do NOT work on sensitive electronically controlled engines. Period.
 
If I ain't got it running by the time you want that steer,bring it with you when you come up to settle on that. lol

Seriously,if I get frustrated and really want it going,I'll let you know and we'll scan it. I kind of hate to even tow it the mile I'd have to get it to Tim in town. There's no neutral in that electric shift transfer case like there is with a manual job.
 
Until the first time the wife's Sport Trac doesn't restart cause I messed with it. Then I get a skillet up back of the head. LOL
 
I've got to run up to the tractor guy's there on Colby road one
day this week. If I think of it I'll throw it in the truck since I'll
be going right by you.
Seems like a lot of work for a mile, but you could trailer it.
 
(quoted from post at 09:37:01 03/25/17) I've tried it with that sensor plugged in and unplugged. There isn't even an air cleaner on it. It had a K&N and it's gone. Just the sensor laying there hooked to the wire. Something has to be throwing off the timing as soon as it starts. I plugged another wire in to the coil,plugged a spark plug in to that and clamped it to the negative battery cable. I had the wife crank on it and told her to hold it right to the start position after it started and keep it there until I told her to stop. The spark never stopped even after the engine died.
Click to expand...


Many cars and trucks won't run if he air cleaner is not installed or one of the hoses is not connected or even loose.I'd be looking for a cleaner before I'd go much farther.
 
I had a '97 Grand Cherokee that behaved exactly the same way after I inadvertently tripped the security system. The only way to turn off/reset the security system so that it would stay running was with the original key FOB (which I didn't have, as I bought the vehicle used and FOB did not come with it) or to unlock the driver's door with the key (which I couldn't do because the front doors had been changed, did not have a key to fit the door tumbler). Solution as given to me by a Chrysler tech was to pull driver's door panel, ground one of the wires going to the door lock/tumbler and then turn the ignition on. I was successful in using this method, although please note that the wire to be grounded is vehicle/model-specific and may vary. HTH!
 
Funny you should mention the door. From the very slight difference in paint color,I can see that the drivers side door has been changed. That wouldn't explain why it died on the road though.
 
I should be around all week. I don't know where else I'd go. I looked up a cam sensor on Parts Plus website. $22 and some change. I might throw that much more at it before I give up. If it starts,I'll let you know.
 
(quoted from post at 18:58:03 03/26/17) I should be around all week. I don't know where else I'd go. I looked up a cam sensor on Parts Plus website. $22 and some change. I might throw that much more at it before I give up. If it starts,I'll let you know.
Click to expand...

If you need anything I have a dealership workshop manual and a full set if wiring diagrams Id be glad to send you any info you would need. Just a thought you could pull the air box mass air flow sensor cam sensor anything else from your other explorer rather than buying new till you eliminate all the suspects
Byron
 

BTW On a ford with fuel pressure issues always check the Inertia Switch AND THE CONNECTOR don't ask how I know about the connector...
 
(quoted from post at 23:40:23 03/25/17) Might be a good idea to borrow a scanner or just go buy a cheap one.

The more you unplug stuff, it will be setting a bunch of codes, won't know which one is for real.

What I've dealt with on the MAF sensor is it needs to be there and in the air flow to run.
Click to expand...

My Expedition wouldn't even start without the MAF hooked up. Has to have air flowing past it.
 
I think I'd put a code reader on it and see what that says before buying or changing any more parts. You can buy them for 50 bucks.... or about the price of the sensor you already bought.
I'm also inclined to think that it would need the MAF installed to run... although I've never tried running my Ranger without it. Hobo may indeed be correct that it will run in open loop without it... but that seems to be counter-intuitive to me. The 4.0L SOHC are also somewhat known for bad coil packs so that may be your problem as well... I really don't know...
All I know is I have a misfire in mine right now that I haven't figured out yet either lol

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 03:17:49 03/28/17) I think I'd put a code reader on it and see what that says before buying or changing any more parts. You can buy them for 50 bucks.... or about the price of the sensor you already bought.
I'm also inclined to think that it would need the MAF installed to run... although I've never tried running my Ranger without it. Hobo may indeed be correct that it will run in open loop without it... but that seems to be counter-intuitive to me. The 4.0L SOHC are also somewhat known for bad coil packs so that may be your problem as well... I really don't know...
All I know is I have a misfire in mine right now that I haven't figured out yet either lol

Rod
Click to expand...

GOOGLE IT.
 
(quoted from post at 22:17:49 03/27/17) I think I'd put a code reader on it and see what that says before buying or changing any more parts. You can buy them for 50 bucks.... or about the price of the sensor you already bought.
I'm also inclined to think that it would need the MAF installed to run... although I've never tried running my Ranger without it. Hobo may indeed be correct that it will run in open loop without it... but that seems to be counter-intuitive to me. The 4.0L SOHC are also somewhat known for bad coil packs so that may be your problem as well... I really don't know...
All I know is I have a misfire in mine right now that I haven't figured out yet either lol

Rod
Click to expand...

Theres some good info here including testing coil packs could be helpful, a lot on older models but some newer models still use the same parts like coil packs
http://easyautodiagnostics.com/
 
Yea I had a ford f250 you could hear the fuel pump running would not start I never checked fuel pressure and it sat for months I just couldn't figure it out. I went back to check it again see if I could figure it out this time no noise from the fuel pump replaced it and it started right up! Byron
 
It appears to have been established that it has a V-6 engine. BUT, there are TWO V-6s that were available that year. There was the SOHC engine which is VIN code "E" and then there is the "pushrod" engine, VIN code "X." Right now, I will go on the assumption that it is the "E" engine.
Click to expand...

You don't know what you're talking about! Why do you continue to post about stuff that you know nothing about?
 
(quoted from post at 08:39:51 03/28/17) Yea I had a ford f250 you could hear the fuel pump running would not start I never checked fuel pressure and it sat for months I just couldn't figure it out. I went back to check it again see if I could figure it out this time no noise from the fuel pump replaced it and it started right up! Byron
Click to expand...

Now Now Now why would anyone check the basics :shock:
 
(quoted from post at 13:00:49 03/28/17)
(quoted from post at 08:39:51 03/28/17) Yea I had a ford f250 you could hear the fuel pump running would not start I never checked fuel pressure and it sat for months I just couldn't figure it out. I went back to check it again see if I could figure it out this time no noise from the fuel pump replaced it and it started right up! Byron
Click to expand...

Now Now Now why would anyone check the basics :shock:
Click to expand...

That's easy I'm disabled my son helps with most things I cant do and I haven't got the resources you may have, now don't take it wrong but don't assume you got the whole story when you don't. No Offence my friend
Thanks for the help in the past.
Byron
 
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