Just in the paper about anouther school shooting. This one happens to be close to me. I have been past the school many a time but never on the grounds. The school is locate in the middle of farm fields. Seams as a 17 year old boy took a shotgun into the school and shot a 16 year old boy and he is in critical shape. Before he was able to shoot any more he was tackled and held down for the athorities. The students were bused to town park for parents to pick up. The park is owned by the Lions Club and is where my tractor club has their fall show every year. Getting close to home. This was at West Liberty, Ohio. At least the school is one that the windows could be opened for the kids to get out of the building unlike most schools now the windows do not open. And was good weather for them to run to neighboring farms for help.
- Thread starter Leroy
- Start date
That's too bad, I hope everyone comes out of it ok. Grandpa used to tell about the time back in the thirties that a couple brothers hid in the attic of the country school. They were going to kill the teacher and burn the school. Times change but the personalities don't.
jimg.allentown
Well-known Member
Too often in incidents like this, we react out of emotion rather then fact. One thing is certain, newspaper accounts are hastily done "shoot from the hip" hatchet jobs meant to do just that - bring out an emotional response.
David wants to blame first the parents, then the times for this. I say wrong on both counts.
We simply do not have all of the facts. What we do have is a second hand reporting (no offense, Leroy) of an incident reported in a local newspaper.
While there may be some "changes in the times," also take into account that along with perceived changes in the times, we also have increased speed and penetration of reporting of these incidents. When such an incident occurs, it is heard about thousands of miles away. As recently as 30 years ago, we did not have this instant communication of news events as we have today.
Some things we do NOT know are where the kid got the gun. Was it his parents' gun? Did he just take an unlocked gun? did he break a lock to get it? These questions have yet to be answered. But, already we have one poster saying that the parents should be charged.
Really?
Does not a 17 year old person know the difference between right and wrong? Again, blame the parents?
Really?
We also see that there was apparently some cooperation in keeping it from escalating by the other children present in restraining the shooter. At least according to the reporter that wrote and published the story.
I say that it is WRONG to try this one in a tractor forum and base "our" judgments on what scant evidence is presented here. Seems like every time something like this is reported here, the rush to judgment is to "hang him from the highest yardarm in the admiral's navy."
Let the officials do a proper investigation and bring the offender to justice - whatever that may be - and then express our opinions about what comprises justice.
Rant over.
David wants to blame first the parents, then the times for this. I say wrong on both counts.
We simply do not have all of the facts. What we do have is a second hand reporting (no offense, Leroy) of an incident reported in a local newspaper.
While there may be some "changes in the times," also take into account that along with perceived changes in the times, we also have increased speed and penetration of reporting of these incidents. When such an incident occurs, it is heard about thousands of miles away. As recently as 30 years ago, we did not have this instant communication of news events as we have today.
Some things we do NOT know are where the kid got the gun. Was it his parents' gun? Did he just take an unlocked gun? did he break a lock to get it? These questions have yet to be answered. But, already we have one poster saying that the parents should be charged.
Really?
Does not a 17 year old person know the difference between right and wrong? Again, blame the parents?
Really?
We also see that there was apparently some cooperation in keeping it from escalating by the other children present in restraining the shooter. At least according to the reporter that wrote and published the story.
I say that it is WRONG to try this one in a tractor forum and base "our" judgments on what scant evidence is presented here. Seems like every time something like this is reported here, the rush to judgment is to "hang him from the highest yardarm in the admiral's navy."
Let the officials do a proper investigation and bring the offender to justice - whatever that may be - and then express our opinions about what comprises justice.
Rant over.
I came from a time when we all drove our work trucks to school this was the era of flathead ford's and Babbitt Beater Chevys. One thing they all had in common was there was a gun rack in each and everyone of them in that gun rack was a shotgun a 22 rifle . And I almost forgot to fishing pole we had some real lockdown fistfights quite often and the idea of going to the truck and grabbing a rifle or shotgun never crossed our minds was it teaching of Responsibility for being around animals seeing life and death I don't know but it's a shame what directiionthe kids are taking
Our sons both took their shotguns to school with them so they could road hunt pheasant and rabbit after school. Had to park at the church lot across street from school as no firearms were allowed on school property. This was in the later 90's. I suppose I ought to be put in jail. Seemed alright at the time. just sayin. gobble
caterpillar guy
Well-known Member
Sorry to hear about the situation happening.
My folks never had a lock on their firearms and we never had any issues with them. They even bought my brother and me a shotgun for our 12th birthday.
How things have changed, used to go into the store and buy a box of shells at 12 now they would have the cops there over that.
My folks never had a lock on their firearms and we never had any issues with them. They even bought my brother and me a shotgun for our 12th birthday.
How things have changed, used to go into the store and buy a box of shells at 12 now they would have the cops there over that.
flembo
Well-known Member
I brought a British Enfield to school in the 7th grade I cut and reworked the stock and sportorized it in wood shop class. I drilled and tapped the action for scope mounts, removed the military sights and installed sport sights in metal shop class. This was in the early 60s and there was no problem I even brought it on the bus. Things have changed since then.
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
The main problem is. It should not have happened. A 17 year old should know full well it was wrong.To many people today want to settle things with a gun. When I was in school we settled things with a fist fight,got done shook hands and went hunting together most times.
Deutz Lover
Member
Henson Ong, a legal immigrant from the Philippines spoke during the hearings after Connecticut. He covered earlier history like the posts here and summed it up saying it is societal decay not access or the second amendment. I think that is to the point.
I have read the posts so far and agree with all. It is a combination of things. Morals and responsibility. One thing that wasn't mentioned though is the laws that have created gun free killing zones. That is the laws that insure that there will not be a legally held gun in and around a school. You can be fairly sure that if you want to get a gun and take it to a school and kill a lot of people there will be nobody to stop you for a good while. If some of the school staff had access to a firearm some of these shootings would be stopped sooner and the bad guys would know they might not get so far. And as for a 17 year old kid, we let them drive,and with a vehicle you can do in a lot of people quick if you want to, it's not the object that does evil, it is the person controlling it. We have stopped treating young adults as young adults and allowed them to be treated as children and now they are acting like children but have access to adult equipment and with not much sense of responsibility and morals this is what we are getting.
Paul from MN
Member
The entire U.K. Is a "gun free killing zone", yet it doesn't happen there. Wonder what the difference is.
Interestingly the following also fit your "gun free killing zone", yet they don't have our issue with school shootings. Germany, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Canada, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Ireland, France, Finland, Switzerland, Australia, New Zeland..
Interestingly the following also fit your "gun free killing zone", yet they don't have our issue with school shootings. Germany, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Canada, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Ireland, France, Finland, Switzerland, Australia, New Zeland..
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> Too often in incidents like this, we react out of emotion rather then fact. One thing is certain, newspaper accounts are hastily done "shoot from the hip" hatchet jobs meant to do just that - bring out an emotional response... ...Let the officials do a proper investigation and bring the offender to justice - whatever that may be - and then express our opinions about what comprises justice.
Well stated, JMG.
Whenever an incident like this happens, people tend to focus on the particular aspect of it that fits their own beliefs. "It must be due to moral decay!" (whatever that is) "It was because of an unlocked gun!" The reality is never that simple. Every accident/incident has a chain of events that led up to it. In this particular case, something compelled a young man to do a heinous act. We don't know why. Somehow he was able to obtain a deadly weapon. We don't know how. Apparently nobody recognized he was a threat to his schoolmate. We don't know why. And nobody was able to stop him from shooting his classmate. We don't know why that was, either. It's very easy to come up with pat answers to these questions, as the pro-gun and anti-gun lobbies reliably do. But pat answers seldom identify root causes, let alone address them.
Well stated, JMG.
Whenever an incident like this happens, people tend to focus on the particular aspect of it that fits their own beliefs. "It must be due to moral decay!" (whatever that is) "It was because of an unlocked gun!" The reality is never that simple. Every accident/incident has a chain of events that led up to it. In this particular case, something compelled a young man to do a heinous act. We don't know why. Somehow he was able to obtain a deadly weapon. We don't know how. Apparently nobody recognized he was a threat to his schoolmate. We don't know why. And nobody was able to stop him from shooting his classmate. We don't know why that was, either. It's very easy to come up with pat answers to these questions, as the pro-gun and anti-gun lobbies reliably do. But pat answers seldom identify root causes, let alone address them.
Goose
Well-known Member
When I was a junior in high school, we used a fully functional, obviously unloaded, .45 automatic pistol as a prop in a class play and no one thought anything of it. It was just an inanimate object necessary to the plot of the play.
I have to agree, it's societal decay that is the problem.
I have to agree, it's societal decay that is the problem.
They have shootings, just not as often and not publicized on this side of the ocean, they also don't have the population and land area tof make an accurate comparison. They don't have some of the other issues we do either. For example just in the last couple years they are having issues with undocumented immigration from the south like we do. Now they are experiencing more crime, like we do. We don't have acid attacks like they do in Europe, where they throw a container of acid on your face to blind and disfigure a person. Australia has had shootings and then banned many styles of firearms, they estimate the number of illegal firearms in Australia in the millions. Australia is now trying/banned a seven shot lever action shotgun because it is so horribly lethal. The type of action invented in the 1860's is all of a sudden too dangerous for civilians.
I would be willing to bet that there are more children molested by teachers than involved in school shootings nationwaid, do we ban adults from schools? A good test is to substitute something else in place in the argument and if nothing else that is substituted makes sense then probably the argument doesn't hold water.
I would be willing to bet that there are more children molested by teachers than involved in school shootings nationwaid, do we ban adults from schools? A good test is to substitute something else in place in the argument and if nothing else that is substituted makes sense then probably the argument doesn't hold water.
Mark - IN.
Well-known Member
I've learned that when it comes to "news", if I want to get "news" that I often have to use the internet to get our "news" from foreign outlets because all too much American "news" gets buried by American "news" outlets, other than what they want to get out there, those items that meet their agenda.
Mark
Mark
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-gYOrU8bA">I can call you Betty!</a>
Paul from MN
Member
Ahhh, so you choose to doubt the actual numbers and make your own reality.
Paul from MN
Member
Actually, not TV. Real reading and researching the data.
But nice try at dismissing reality.
But nice try at dismissing reality.
Gary Mitchell
Well-known Member
David G. I agree with you, (again I think).
I think that people who want to have guns need to be responsible for the gun. If you leave one laying around and your 4 year old shoots your 2 year old you need to go to jail for negligent homicide and endangering a child. If you allow an irresponsible school aged kid to take a gun to school and they harm another person, you need to pay the price, just like your other responsibilities for them until they are legal age. I'm not anti-gun, just anti dead kids and lousy, irresponsible parenting. gm
I think that people who want to have guns need to be responsible for the gun. If you leave one laying around and your 4 year old shoots your 2 year old you need to go to jail for negligent homicide and endangering a child. If you allow an irresponsible school aged kid to take a gun to school and they harm another person, you need to pay the price, just like your other responsibilities for them until they are legal age. I'm not anti-gun, just anti dead kids and lousy, irresponsible parenting. gm
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
Billy, when I was in school, I was a terrible misfit, littlest kid in class, target of many bullies...
I also had free access to an assortment off weapons, pistols, rifles, shotguns.
Never once did the thought of taking one to school even cross my mind. It just didn't happen then.
I also had free access to an assortment off weapons, pistols, rifles, shotguns.
Never once did the thought of taking one to school even cross my mind. It just didn't happen then.
David I think we should LOCK up every darn computer controlled system in the world too!!!! LIKE that statement???
I grew up in a home with hundreds of fire arms UNLOCKED in the house!!!! My kids grew up in a house with hundreds of firearms in the house unlocked!!! My grand kids are growing up in homes with maybe not hundreds but tens of guns unlocked!!!! They are taught at a young age about guns!!! Not a single GUN issue ever!!!! The real trouble is fools that think that just keeping kids ignorant about guns will make them safe are the ones that cause the most harm.
I think every single house hold should be required to own and maintain a firearm. I also think that every single person in this country should be trained in the safety and handling of this very same firearm. I believe this is the LAW in Switzerland.
Those of you that think that taking away all the guns from people or locking them up will "solve" the moral decay that is causing the real problems, are living in a fantasy world. The simple fact that our constitution provides for private ownership of guns is the ONLY darn thing that keeps any of us free over the long haul. The government of the land is the main reason for the average citizen to own and keep guns. The average Joe being able to defend himself against the government agents is as important as elections and the court system. It is a balance.
I worry more about attack from the government than some random individual.
I grew up in a home with hundreds of fire arms UNLOCKED in the house!!!! My kids grew up in a house with hundreds of firearms in the house unlocked!!! My grand kids are growing up in homes with maybe not hundreds but tens of guns unlocked!!!! They are taught at a young age about guns!!! Not a single GUN issue ever!!!! The real trouble is fools that think that just keeping kids ignorant about guns will make them safe are the ones that cause the most harm.
I think every single house hold should be required to own and maintain a firearm. I also think that every single person in this country should be trained in the safety and handling of this very same firearm. I believe this is the LAW in Switzerland.
Those of you that think that taking away all the guns from people or locking them up will "solve" the moral decay that is causing the real problems, are living in a fantasy world. The simple fact that our constitution provides for private ownership of guns is the ONLY darn thing that keeps any of us free over the long haul. The government of the land is the main reason for the average citizen to own and keep guns. The average Joe being able to defend himself against the government agents is as important as elections and the court system. It is a balance.
I worry more about attack from the government than some random individual.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Years of playing shooting video games makes it easy for a kid to pull the trigger on a person. It it learned behavour with thousands of repetitions of practice .
Paul from MN
Member
I thought we were talking school shootings. Indeed there is a problem in Europe. There were 15 school shootings in the last 20 years. It is important to note the us is less than 1/2 the population of Europe. Based on that you might expect us to have 7 or 8 in the same period. Instead we had 204.
That seems to MBA far more severe to me.
Europe school shootings. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#/search
Us shootings
That seems to MBA far more severe to me.
Europe school shootings. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#/search
Us shootings
Paul from MN
Member
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
Real shame how things have changed.
As one of the few UK citizens to have both a UK and a European firearms licence I may be considered biased, however I would throw in my 2 cents worth. The UK does have regular shootings, a few months ago a Member of Parliament was fatally shot and stabbed; most shootings are ?Gang Related?.
The important point is that it is not what the shooter has in his hand, but what he has in his head that is the problem.
Therein lies the difficulty, politicians cannot offer an easy answer to the real problem, if they are to be seen to be ?in control? they need to ?ban something? ? unfortunately they cannot ban thoughts so ?Ban the Gun? is all they can offer.
The important point is that it is not what the shooter has in his hand, but what he has in his head that is the problem.
Therein lies the difficulty, politicians cannot offer an easy answer to the real problem, if they are to be seen to be ?in control? they need to ?ban something? ? unfortunately they cannot ban thoughts so ?Ban the Gun? is all they can offer.
Oops, I did post the wrong link. The goal posts got moved on me here too lol. The statement was that this didn't happen in Europe and now we are discussing how much less relatively. In the US right now there are about 74 million school children, at the same time there are an estimated 320 million firearms in the hands of about 140 million people. We can safely assume, I believe, that the number of school age kids that have access to firearms number in the several hundred thousands. With these numbers we can look at it several ways.
1. There were 204 school shootings in the US in the last 20 years, since 1984 thesee shootings have resulted in 237 deaths. This means there are about 10 shootings a year and the only issue is that the weapons are not stored correctry and this will fix it.
2. Same prelude as above but it is strictly a societal anomaly that never used to happen. (It did)
3. 74 million kids go to school 9 months out of the year and 10 times a year someone brings a gun to scool and shoots it. The school shooting is definitely an exception to the rule.
It is an issue definitely, an overwhelming problem? I don't think so when looking at the numbers. Would storage laws help? Probably would cut down the numbers some, closing all the schools would trim the numbers too. Safe storage laws are unenforceable. The only reason behind them is to have someone to charge for a crime after the fact, which does no good at that point. I would imagine that having your child shoot up a school is just as traumatic as having your child shot, hopefully I'll never have to find out.
As far as Europe, the number of guns is just one of the differences. If we were to lok at it country by country and take each ones laws into account I doubt we can find a link that one significantly helps or hurts.
Like someone else said there was a set of circumstances that lead up to these and every one is different. We all wish it was as simple as another law but when they break 40 laws already what's one more?
1. There were 204 school shootings in the US in the last 20 years, since 1984 thesee shootings have resulted in 237 deaths. This means there are about 10 shootings a year and the only issue is that the weapons are not stored correctry and this will fix it.
2. Same prelude as above but it is strictly a societal anomaly that never used to happen. (It did)
3. 74 million kids go to school 9 months out of the year and 10 times a year someone brings a gun to scool and shoots it. The school shooting is definitely an exception to the rule.
It is an issue definitely, an overwhelming problem? I don't think so when looking at the numbers. Would storage laws help? Probably would cut down the numbers some, closing all the schools would trim the numbers too. Safe storage laws are unenforceable. The only reason behind them is to have someone to charge for a crime after the fact, which does no good at that point. I would imagine that having your child shoot up a school is just as traumatic as having your child shot, hopefully I'll never have to find out.
As far as Europe, the number of guns is just one of the differences. If we were to lok at it country by country and take each ones laws into account I doubt we can find a link that one significantly helps or hurts.
Like someone else said there was a set of circumstances that lead up to these and every one is different. We all wish it was as simple as another law but when they break 40 laws already what's one more?
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Folks who insist school mass murders are a recent development must not be aware the deadliest one in US history took place 90 years ago.
Bath School Disaster
Bath School Disaster
Paul from MN
Member
Do you think any of the gun related deaths in the UK an Australia are suicides? If they are it is reasonably safe to assume they occur at a similar rate...
But, lets just pretend that there are zero suicides in the UK and Australia. The estimates that I have seen is that suicides account for 60% of firearm deaths. Just for the sake of this discussion, let's assume that we are not concerned about the people who commit suicide, or their friends and family.
The firearm related death in the US is 10.54 per 100,000, but 60% of those are suicides so the firearm death rate we care about is . In the UK it is 0.23 per 100,000. If we care about is 4.22 per 100,000. That is still 18X the rate in the UK and 4.5X the rate in Australia.
Data shows that roughly 50% of all suicides are committed with a gun. It also shows that 22% of American adults own a gun. That seems to indicate a much higher incidence of suicides by gun owners. The math shows the suicide rate among gun owners is a bit over 350% higher than Americans who do not own a firearm.
But, lets just pretend that there are zero suicides in the UK and Australia. The estimates that I have seen is that suicides account for 60% of firearm deaths. Just for the sake of this discussion, let's assume that we are not concerned about the people who commit suicide, or their friends and family.
The firearm related death in the US is 10.54 per 100,000, but 60% of those are suicides so the firearm death rate we care about is . In the UK it is 0.23 per 100,000. If we care about is 4.22 per 100,000. That is still 18X the rate in the UK and 4.5X the rate in Australia.
Data shows that roughly 50% of all suicides are committed with a gun. It also shows that 22% of American adults own a gun. That seems to indicate a much higher incidence of suicides by gun owners. The math shows the suicide rate among gun owners is a bit over 350% higher than Americans who do not own a firearm.
Paul from MN
Member
You may want to check your math. In the last 20 years (which is since 1997) there were 204 school shootings, resulting in 263 deaths. To me that is tragic and unacceptable. Every reliable data source you look at (FBI, CDC, World Health Org, Iterpol) indicate that this happens with far greater frequency in the USA. We are better than that. But unfortunately it is a growing epidemic. 37 deaths in the 70s, 49 in the 80s, 89 in the 90s, 105 between 2000 and 2009. In the current decade we already have 119 which puts us on pace for 170.
Paul from MN
Member
That's an illogical interpretation of the facts. US murder rates are 3-5x European countries. How the heck do you support that conclusion.
I've done a lot of research on this stuff over the years, and I helped compile some of the data used in the vaunted FBI stats for many years. One issue that is never considered in firearms deaths and injuries is whether or not the firearm is legally procured, owned and possessed. As with drugs, all the laws in the world aren't going to stop someone who won't follow the law in the first place. In most of Europe it's very hard to legally obtain a firearm, yet firearms violence in Europe is fairly common. Even good old Canada, where everyone is friendly and just wants beer and hockey, firearms violence with banned or illegal guns happens on a regular basis. While I'm all for personal responsibility and reducing the incidence of violence across the board, the only people that will obey stricter gun laws are the people who aren't the problem int he first place!
As far as suicide, it doesn't matter if there's no gun in the home. There are drugs, cars, ropes and belts, plastic bags, water, electricity, knives, fire, etc, etc, etc. It's funny that in an era where we see various nations moving to assisted suicide and where we kill babies at unprecedented rates, we're going to worry about stopping a manic depressive with cancer from offing himself?
It is odd that all of those killed in wars in Europe are not counted as firearms related deaths. Consider the killing of over 8000 in the '90's Bosnian genocide. Thousands killed in the troubles in Ireland.
It is difficult to directly compare statistics with foreign countries as very diffferent data is included. Are suicides included under firearms related deaths or not? Terrorist acts? What makes something a war that would then not be counted? Are gangs in Chicago at war? Is that an ethnic conflict that should not be counted in the civilian gun related death numbers?
What about just looking at violent death rate numbers? Would the millions intentionally killed by starvation in the last hundred years be included in that number?
Positive effects of civilian gun ownership also need to be considered. How many of these gun related deaths are self defense.
Think about the big picture.
It is difficult to directly compare statistics with foreign countries as very diffferent data is included. Are suicides included under firearms related deaths or not? Terrorist acts? What makes something a war that would then not be counted? Are gangs in Chicago at war? Is that an ethnic conflict that should not be counted in the civilian gun related death numbers?
What about just looking at violent death rate numbers? Would the millions intentionally killed by starvation in the last hundred years be included in that number?
Positive effects of civilian gun ownership also need to be considered. How many of these gun related deaths are self defense.
Think about the big picture.
Have not read all the responses to my post. This is in a very rual farm comunity and the school sets in the middle of farm fields. The gun he had was a normal farm varmit gun, not one with no redeming use except for to kill people. Have not hear anymore on condition of boy shot. It will not make national news as first the boy did not die at seen, they had shooter down in moments with school not shot up, not a gun that any average farm boy would not have a problem using on a varmit. One of thos places you like to think about people not locking their doors. Think one small factory in town, rest just normal small farming town bussiness. Only time I ever remember it hit the new is when an eldery friend took a load to local elevator and as was outside his truck it started to roll, as he tried to get it stopped he got cought under and got his scalp pealed off, never recovered, at that time on news no name was given but I knew the moment I hear it that it was one of my friends. Just not something you expect in that type of community and being as close to home as it is. The school is only about a dozen mile from the Ohio caverns, a big turist draw, along with two castles.
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