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EPA may be heading on opposite direction

Geo-TH,In

Geo-TH,In

Well-known Member
Without running the risk of this post going Poof, I'll just say it looks like the EPA's war on carbon may be changing direction or slowing down in the near future.

geo
 
Given the power to pass regulations with out approval of both houses of congress or signed by the President.....seems kinda un-American somehow
 
that a no brainier who likes or needs clean air. i just about for got what it felt like to go in to a city come out with good bunch smog my lungs and burning eye
 
Not soon enough to suit me. For the most part, the EPA increasing restrictions on emissions more and more did little more than increase the cost, and decreasing fuel mileage. I know some will disagree, but my thinking is that if we took off the restrictive emission controls, thus the added weight, todays vehicles could likely gain anywhere from 25 to 50 in fuel mileage. How much additional cost for a new diesel pickup is simply to meet EPA emission requirements, with no added value?
 
I read about the great choice for director.

Maybe now this rogue agency will be reigned in.

It's long overdue.

Dean
 
Bingo, Ron.

Ford is going to ask the administration for more realistic CAFE numbers.

Barry's numbers, if even possible, would be enormously expensive for all of us.

Dean
 
I know some might disagree but I don't miss seeing the brown clouds of smog hanging over large cities (growing up it was Denver that I remember). To me that is worth something.

A major thing that seriously hurts fuel milage in vehicles these days is speed. My truck gets about 22 mpg at 55 and barely 18 at 75, all else being equal - the laws of physics are what they are. But, not too many of us are asking for the double nickel federal speed limit again.
 
I do remember in the "old days" before emission controls on cars that even following some cars on the road would give you a case of carbon monoxide poisoning. Others could probably fuel another car with the unburned fuel practically dripping out of the tailpipe.
In the beginning, the emission controls were expensive, largely ineffective, and difficult to service. There were those nasty (read RUSTY) little tubes going into the exhaust manifolds, noisy air pumps to feed them, EGR valves that did little more than make the engine hesitate and stumble.
BUT, then came the catalytic converter. You surely did not want to follow one of those for long! Talk about STINK!!!
Now, we have some technology that really improves things. The 3-way catalyst is a big improvement. Not much but fresh air coming out of tailpipes so equipped. Then there is fuel injection, precise mixture control, and electronically controlled timing. Add that to multiple valves per cylinder, roller tappets, overhead cams, and a host of other formerly too exotic features, and you have a tiny engine powering a full sized car and getting decent mileage doing it!
That is about where they should have stopped with the electronics. Back to the key fobs and self driving cars, just not good ideas. Period.
 
My biggest surprise is we haven't been hit harder yet with very high cost electricity. For instance to start with, who paid for all the windmills?
 

Now that Al Gore has got his couple hundred million the EPA is no longer needed...

Google how did Al gore got rich... are Al Gore, Clintons and leftists getting rich by "doing good"
 
It's about time. I doubt we will be seeing brown smog hanging over cities again. An example of a department out of control is my 96 Dodge 3500. I was getting a good smog reading, and would have passed smog except for my check engine light was on. The problem was the transmission would not shift into high range. I didn't use high range much driving around local roads with my trailer, and tractor in tow. That cost me over two grand to have my tranny fixed, just so I could get the engine light to go out. Now the Dodge sits until spring. Stan
 
Do you think the presidential limos have to meet CAFE gas-mileage standards?
Just something to think about....
 
Nice to see someone on this forum that has a prospective longer than his weekly paycheck. All the great things you mention would not have happened without a painful government mandate. Sadly, even today to many just don't get it.
 
I sure hope 20 years from now when I am in the ground (and most of the guys on this forum are too), that
our grand kids don't say "and our Grandpas killed us all just to save $50 a month".
 
Hay hay hay Naq, these guys want us to be like Beijing, China. Where on most days you need to wear a mask to go outside. They want less Government interference!

Let's get rid of the USDA too! USDA protects our food supply....Oh, wait, the USDA also provides farm subsidies and crop payments....maybe we better keep it.

LOL!
 
I can say this, my 89 Chevy and 2000 ford diesel do not require to pass emmisons here in NY, they only have to pass a safety inspection. I asked the garage I go to for inspections, Would a 2016 diesel truck have to pass for emissions now he said yes, New York is a clean air state they get federal grant money for being a clean air state and fleecing the citizens, a clean air state what the heck does that mean ? you're telling me no pollution comes in from any other state? As my brother said will probably run out of clean water before we'll ever run out of clean air.
 
Anyone who actually believes that innovation, automotive or otherwise, is the result of the EPA clearly does not understand free enterprise.

Dean
 
Who on this forum, or anyone in the country, for that matter, wants the US to be like Beijing?

Names please.

Dean
 
Agreed, Ted, but the point of diminishing returns was reached about 40 years ago.

Dean
 
Dean- Are you freaking serious?????

Look at the posts just on this thread about how we need less regulation from the EPA. Also, there have been quite a few threads started in the past saying how we need to 'do away with' the EPA.

Seems you read a lot on here, as I do. Surely, you've seen them.
 
And how many trillions have been spent on the other two since the early 60s.....creating 2-3 generations that don"t know what a job is...or family structure, where a dad is in the picture? Yeah, great abundant success!
 
That's a dumb statement, I took the cat of my 89 gas truck, you think it's not polluting? I went to get my 84 chevy truck inspected years ago, with two gas tanks guy opens the gas cap door to see if the gas cap was there, I said what are you doing? he said you have to have a gas cap on the truck nowadays I told him well the other tank leaks, he said I don't care. As long as the cap was on it, it's all a joke for money. My 99 F1 50 passed inspection last year a month after the inspection the check engine light came on, a vent valve is bad and it's been leaking emissions into the air since then, So it passed emissions while the light was off then I ran it for over a year with the check engine light on? Does it matter the check engine light came on? No, because it's already passed inspection when the light was off Real good system. It's not about the air it's about money.
 
And the war on poverty, going since the early 60s...generating 2-3 generations of people that don"t need to work for a living, no family structure, lie a Dad in the picture...countless trillions spent courtesy of the liberals....yeah, great payoff...
 
Greg You can end the USDA tomorrow and the people hurt the worse would NOT be the farmers. I think your actually talking about the FSA office, that is who handles farm subsidies. I am 100% for getting rid of the FSA ( Farm Service Agency). The main goal of the farm programs are to maintain an abundant and economical food supply. That is as summation of the original "law" that created the USDA/FSA offices. Most of it was in reaction to the Great Depression.

Without the government involvement in farming we would be much more profitable on the production end. The government playing with the programs and such are NOT to make the farmers more money. It is to create an abundance of economical/CHEAP food for this country. The percentage of the average family's income required for food has steadily dropped for more than 75 years. So that part of the program is working.

The USDA not so much, in that the inspections of meat and other food processing is one of the "Good" things the government has done.

Most of us do not want to ruin the air, water, or land but we do object when people go over board on it. Much of the current EPA rules and guidelines are politically driven with little regard to the actual scientific evidence. One of the biggest boondoggles is the global warming issue. The "science" being touted as "evidence" of this happening has been gamed so much there is no way to know what is true or not. Then add in the "list" of scientist supposedly supporting being made up of a majority of people with little actual knowledge on the subject.

Just bring some common sense to the EPA and other Departments would be the best thing that could ever happen. The creation of the EPA helped to really limit pollution and created data to actually know what worked and did not work. Now it is too much "Feel good" stuff with little substance to it. That is dangerous. Crippling this country's industry with faulty ideas and science is what many of us are hot about.
 
JD Seller- I agree with everything you posted except for the last part of the last paragraph..." Now it is too much "Feel good" stuff with little substance to it. That is dangerous. Crippling this country's industry with faulty ideas and science is what many of us are hot about."

Maybe ou know more about something than I do. If you are implying about 'Global Warming'???? I do feel and believe it is occurring now and 'greenhouse' gasses are a big part of that problem. Is that what you were inferring to?
 
For EPA I think they should have picked the guy who's been in charge of the ongoing, incremental improvements in fuel cans. Real genius there.
 
We can hope they get reined in. The EPA like many other organizations was started with good intentions. Did a lot of good untill they realized they had absolute power. Absolute power alway's corrupts and the end result hurts us all!
 
JD Seller- "Without the government involvement in farming we would be much more profitable on the production end. The government playing with the programs and such are NOT to make the farmers more money."

But, didn't you, just a few weeks ago, discuss about how 'Farmers' cut their own throats? Stating that they tend to plant much more acres of corn when corn prices are up, therefore, they end up driving corn prices down? And, you posted about how they did the same with soybeans...

BTW, I'm not a 'tree hugger' or 'greenie'.
 
Bingo, MM.

Diminishing returns was reached decades ago. Today, the EPA promulgates regulations that might result in vanishingly small "improvements" in whatever at incomprehensible cost to the American People.

It needs to go.

Dean
 
I agree with you,problem is with Gov't once they pretty much correct some problems they can't stop there they have to have the fringe crazies come in to carry things to the extreme.
EPA has gone way past the laws that were passed to do things on their own and thats a dangerous thing Unchecked Gov't.
 
Traditional Farmer- Yup, we don't need no Peregrine Falcons or Californian Condors....DDT usagejust about wiped them out, unti it was banned by the EPA.
 
MCTTech at RedPower had some figures on emission reduction vs cost on diesels.

The step from Tier 0 to Tier 1 was a 90% reduction.

The step from Tier 1 to Tier 2 was also a 90% reduction - of the 10% left.

By Tier 4 the emissions are flat lining at very little and the cost curve is going about stratospheric.

If you graph it the best bang for the buck was between Tier 2 and Tier 3.

And it would seem that the EPA has not heeded the advice of one of Alexander the Great's officers around 326 BC -

"Sir,if there is one thing above all others a successful man like you should know, it is when to stop"

From Middle Asia in Eric Newby's "A Book of Travellers' Tales"
 
Why the need for such hyperbole?
No one here is advocating that we get rid of all air quality standards - and be like Beijing.
As I read it, the proponants of reining in the EPA are asking for a reasonable balance. I have read before that the EPA would be happy to get rid of all the grandfathered in machines that don't meet current emission standards. Think about what that would do to everyone here who is still using an old Farmall M, Ford 3000, Ollie 1650, or JD A to get their work done.
 
Your source of information is a little mistaken. Here's the graph of what NOx and particulant matter reductions each tier called for. Between Tier 2 and Tier 3 there were actually no reductions in particulant matter and due to the EGR that was used for NOx reduction the fuel economy took the biggest hit of any of the steps.
a244837.jpg
 
No, the EPA under this administration isn't out of control - I recall a couple of great proposals they've come up with in the last few years...One being a yearly $175 per head "flatulence tax" on all bovines - the other being proposed dust regulations that would make it illegal to drive down a dirt road (or till a field that was too dry)
While these proposals make the left feel good about themselves, they forget that the economy is worldwide, and we have to compete with countries that aren't burdened by such "great ideas"...
 
(quoted from post at 21:44:51 12/07/16) that a no brainier who likes or needs clean air. i just about for got what it felt like to go in to a city come out with good bunch smog my lungs and burning eye
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Are you aware of sensible regulations instead of no regulations ? Are you in favor of the Tier V regulations that would have been enacted under H i l l a r y ?
Are you aware how increase in cost and complexity between tier II, III and IV to reduce a neglegable amount of emissions down to yet lower levels?
Or are you just a jump on the green bandwagon type and don't care about the facts ?
 
(quoted from post at 22:29:11 12/07/16) I do remember in the "old days" before emission controls on cars that even following some cars on the road would give you a case of carbon monoxide poisoning. Others could probably fuel another car with the unburned fuel practically dripping out of the tailpipe.
In the beginning, the emission controls were expensive, largely ineffective, and difficult to service. There were those nasty (read RUSTY) little tubes going into the exhaust manifolds, noisy air pumps to feed them, EGR valves that did little more than make the engine hesitate and stumble.
BUT, then came the catalytic converter. You surely did not want to follow one of those for long! Talk about STINK!!!
Now, we have some technology that really improves things. The 3-way catalyst is a big improvement. Not much but fresh air coming out of tailpipes so equipped. Then there is fuel injection, precise mixture control, and electronically controlled timing. Add that to multiple valves per cylinder, roller tappets, overhead cams, and a host of other formerly too exotic features, and you have a tiny engine powering a full sized car and getting decent mileage doing it!
That is about where they should have stopped with the electronics. Back to the key fobs and self driving cars, just not good ideas. Period.
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Spare us your description of polluting vehicles. They dis not leave the factory dribbling fuel from the exhaust . Btw even late enossions vehicles dribble fluid from the exhaust , in bith cases it's condensed water vapour a byprduct of clean combustion. As for vehicles that did polute it was slob operators that only performed break down maintenance and only cared if the machine would "run" instead of "operate properly".
 
(quoted from post at 21:19:39 12/07/16) Anyone who actually believes that innovation, automotive or otherwise, is the result of the EPA clearly does not understand free enterprise.
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When you have a captive market, free enterprise means you can just keep producing the same inefficient, smoke-belching junk that you have been right along, and people will buy it, because they have no other choice.

There's little incentive to innovate. Why, if you're selling all the cars you can make? Innovating just costs money, and nobody else is doing it, so when your more efficient, cleaner, and MORE EXPENSIVE car comes out on the market, the people will just flock to the competition's cheaper alternative.

Think back to when emissions equipment first appeared on cars. People were complaining about it and ripping it out from day one. Nobody wanted it, nobody wanted to pay for it, but it did eventually clean up the air in the big cities.

I agree that the EPA has gone too far at this point, but without their initial push I doubt we'd have what we have now.
 
(quoted from post at 22:33:05 12/07/16) My biggest surprise is we haven't been hit harder yet with very high cost electricity. For instance to start with, who paid for all the windmills?
Click to expand...

Check out Ontario electrical prices and the rest of Canada soon. There is a wide eyed fanatical green freak by the name of Gerald Butts who is a L i b e r a l party insider and sets policy.
 
That's the type of fringe thinking and false wild statements that makes you folks loose all credibility and has made the American voter turn against the current EPA.No one is saying the EPA hasn't done some necessary things but the last few years they have gone to the extreme and have not weighed the economic impact against some of their actions that gained almost nothing
as far as clean air,water etc which most certainly will get people against their actions when its makes them loose their jobs or triples their electric bill.
 

Killed us with what? Would you post a list of the causes of death per capita and let us know what actually does kill Americans .
 

How could you possible come up with a statement like that? Do you really think that t r u m p will remove and and all pollution regulations ?
 
Let me correct you on a couple of things, Jay.
First, on a vehicle older than 1996, the "check engine" light is irrelevant for inspection. Yours falls under OBD1 regulations. That amounts to a visual inspection to verify that required parts have not been removed.
The thinking is that older vehicles like your 1991 are already mostly worn out and have been taken off the road long ago. So, if there are a few "polluters" still hanging on, it is likely that they are mostly at the end of their useful life and will soon be gone.
Also note that since the emission inspection is only once a year, once your MIL light comes on, you have a bit less than a year to fix it or fail the next inspection.

I do agree that it is more about the money than the air, but overall, it has been a big step in cleaning up the air that we all breathe. Think I am kidding? Go to an antique car meet, and follow one home. Almost guaranteed to give you a headache within a couple of miles. Sometimes I wonder how we tolerated it way back then.
 
Ultradog is correct. While I am one who says reigning in the EPA can't be done fast enough for me, it is because of the radical extremes they have gone to. Like others said, they achieved a reasonable goal years ago, but more (read this more and bigger government controls) is not always better. At the pace we were on we could not afford to heat/cool our homes, drive vehicles, have tractors, a lawnmower, and I could go on. A shining example is the ridiculous fuel cans without vents of the past several years. They are worthless for the purpose intended (more fuel is spilled on the ground than ever with the old containers). All mine how have a vent thanks to an ebay seller and a step drill. And emissions regulations on a weed eater? Even a lawnmower.....give me a break. It got to the point that it was just because they could, and was all about the control. The extreme regulations of EPA is just one reason for what happened a month ago today, and renewed my faith in this great country. Enough was enough years ago, and I had my "belly full" years ago. We the citizens should control the EPA, not the other way around. Sorry, had to vent some emissions :) (pun intended).
 
Actually the biggest bang for the buck was the step from Tier 0 to Tier 1, the least bang (and most expensive) was the step from Tier 3 to Tier 4.
 
(quoted from post at 01:43:30 12/08/16) Greg You can end the USDA tomorrow and the people hurt the worse would NOT be the farmers. I think your actually talking about the FSA office, that is who handles farm subsidies. I am 100% for getting rid of the FSA ( Farm Service Agency). The main goal of the farm programs are to maintain an abundant and economical food supply. That is as summation of the original "law" that created the USDA/FSA offices. Most of it was in reaction to the Great Depression.

Without the government involvement in farming we would be much more profitable on the production end. The government playing with the programs and such are NOT to make the farmers more money. It is to create an abundance of economical/CHEAP food for this country. The percentage of the average family's income required for food has steadily dropped for more than 75 years. So that part of the program is working.

The USDA not so much, in that the inspections of meat and other food processing is one of the "Good" things the government has done.

Most of us do not want to ruin the air, water, or land but we do object when people go over board on it. Much of the current EPA rules and guidelines are politically driven with little regard to the actual scientific evidence. One of the biggest boondoggles is the global warming issue. The "science" being touted as "evidence" of this happening has been gamed so much there is no way to know what is true or not. Then add in the "list" of scientist supposedly supporting being made up of a majority of people with little actual knowledge on the subject.

Just bring some common sense to the EPA and other Departments would be the best thing that could ever happen. The creation of the EPA helped to really limit pollution and created data to actually know what worked and did not work. Now it is too much "Feel good" stuff with little substance to it. That is dangerous. Crippling this country's industry with faulty ideas and science is what many of us are hot about.
Click to expand...


Well said JD! There's a huge difference between agenda driven, extra Constitutional regulation and Constitutional, common sense regulation. That's the difference you're likely to see, a return to sanity and the rule of law. That doesn't mean smog and filthy water. Anyone who doubts my assertions on "agenda driven regulation" should read up on the DDT issue. What we were taught to think and the truth are night and day. Why? The agenda said facts didn't matter! Same with the people today that cannot fathom that scientists need to eat, house their families and get grants to stay employed. Supporting a particular agenda that helps with all this is only natural.
 
DDT about wiped them out - since proven to be a complete work of fiction. What about wiped them out was people killing them on sight because they were a nuisance.



https://junkscience.com/1999/07/100-things-you-should-know-about-ddt/
 
That guy has made sure that people take care of their old cans so they don't have to buy the new ones. So in away he's helping the environment.
 
You do realize the government in China regulates everything with the kind of powers the EPA is trying to claim. Yet your example shows how the government screws it up.
 
the guy has more common sense than anyone at the epa. Hope he doesn't get frustrated with the idiots that are there now trying to justify their jobs by issuing killing regulations on all Americans.
 
I will say this, the EPA under its original guidelines did good work for the environment. I work as an environmental specialist. The EPA is supposed to enforce regulations set by congress. But under the external_link administration, he used executive orders and set the EPA on a different course. I hope this administration brings the EPA back on its intended course.
 

Those who think that EPA continuing to turn the screws would be a good thing miss the point.

"Perfection" is the enemy of the "good." Those brown clouds over cities went away a couple of administration ago, but the EPA was kept at the work of pursuing perfection. Instead of being satisfied that the air and water were cleaner than they had been since pre-industrial revolution, the lunatic fringe kept insisting that we had to pursue perfection.

We have reached the point of diminishing returns with "regulations" and real perfection is not humanly possible. We need to remember the concept of "good enough" and let it be.

I hope the new administration hollows out the EPA and lets us have the best of both worlds - clean air and water plus manufacturing jobs..
 
I totally agree with you, the EPA needs to find a balance, we cannot return to no regulations, but clean air and water need to be a priority.
 
Chalk up another lie for the new occupant. During the campaign,he was promising to name a farmer or rancher to the job. What's it gonna take before some of his followers start to realize what he really is? A bald faced liar.
 
One thing is for sure. Being a state Attorney General presents an opportunity to grab an issue, get lots of free publicity and ride it up the staircase to fame and fortune. The staircase has led upward in New York, California, Michigan, Kentucky and many other states.

and down to disrepute....New York, Pennsylvania, et al
 
I had also read an article that the EPA states that farmers, when they plow, create "mini mountain ranges". The article stated the EPA has jurisdiction over the mountain ranges so they would over plowed land. I would call that over reach.
 
Yes that's what I said, my 89 truck and 2000 diesel truck do not have to meet emissions inspection. Just my 99 truck has to.
 
First, on a vehicle older than 1996, the "check engine" light is irrelevant for inspection.



Actually that depends on the state. A check engine light in Missouri means automatic fail in the counties that have emissions inspections - the year doesn't matter.
 
Haven't seen any of those threads, but the idea of less regulation from the EPA is appealing to lots of people. I know a farmer that was fined, prosecuted in federal court and threaten with jail (got a suspended sentence). His crime - filling ditches caused by erosion due to the previous owners negligence. No pollution, no blocking running streams, but the simple act of filling in ditches to improve his land resulted in a $300,000+ fine and a felony conviction for violating "rules" written by bureaucrats never passed by any elected government. That is too much power being given to unelected officials - but it is exactly the way policy if made in Communist China.

So when you ask if we want to be like Chine - why are you advocating that we be like China?
 
You forgot to ad in the nice property price hike that mpac has done on behalf of our lovely abundant premier....... having farmland value go up by
50% so we can pay more taxes to help fix city infrastructures is her idea of equality.....
 
Bingo, TF.

When was the last time anyone heard someone at ANY government agency say: Our work is done and it's time to disband?

Don't hold your breath. You NEVER will.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 09:54:25 12/08/16) Ultradog is correct. While I am one who says reigning in the EPA can't be done fast enough for me, it is because of the radical extremes they have gone to. Like others said, they achieved a reasonable goal years ago, but more (read this more and bigger government controls) is not always better. At the pace we were on we could not afford to heat/cool our homes, drive vehicles, have tractors, a lawnmower, and I could go on. A shining example is the ridiculous fuel cans without vents of the past several years. They are worthless for the purpose intended (more fuel is spilled on the ground than ever with the old containers). All mine how have a vent thanks to an ebay seller and a step drill. And emissions regulations on a weed eater? Even a lawnmower.....give me a break. It got to the point that it was just because they could, and was all about the control. The extreme regulations of EPA is just one reason for what happened a month ago today, and renewed my faith in this great country. Enough was enough years ago, and I had my "belly full" years ago. We the citizens should control the EPA, not the other way around. Sorry, had to vent some emissions :) (pun intended).
Click to expand...
ditto, ditto, ditto. Just last week, I tried to use one of my newer CARB compliant cans as it was intended. I usually remove the cap and just use a funnel but I had some time so I thought I'd give it another shot. I followed the directions on the can (plastic container to be precise) and got it "unlocked" after a couple of minutes of fiddling with it. I put it into the tank of my F150 and gas started pouring out all over the place onto the ground from the spout. :(
 
Brown clouds are still out there. went into LA from Barstow one time brown cloud over LA. Told a mechanic that was working on my truck it looked like someone took a dump
on LA, another mechanic asked what I ment. He laughed and said the other mechanic had never been out of LA so didn't know what clean air looked like.
 

The EPA has done some good but has forgotten, like most regulatory agencies, the old adage: ' everything in moderation'. I expect the government in general to begin showing some common sense now that the present crowd is on the way out. :lol:
 
I'm with you all the way, Randy. Couldn't think of any body worse for the office. Second from the bottom was the other one. How did we ever get here?
 
I agree that EPA has overreached on some regulations, particularly in agriculture. The most egregious when they attempted to regulate "fugitive dust"! They had no conception of how a farmer could possibly disc a field, combine beans or even drive down his driveway without stirring up some dust. Idiots that come up with ideas like that are what give EPA and all environmental regulations a bad name.
However, what I am concerned about is the drastic roll-back of limits of noxious gasses from coal fired power plants and other industries that have been proven to cause pulmonary ailments and, perhaps cancer. it would be quite ironic if the recently passed legislation called the "Moon shot for Cancer" funded research that found a direct link between coal emissions and cancer, but we can't do anything about it because we stripped regulations and many more coal plants came online.
 
Can you please provide specifics, Year, city, state, name of farmer who got the $300,000 fine and conviction? I would like to look it up. I am very leery of passed along legends. Many thanks for details which should be easy to track and verify.
 
I checked out a story discussed on this thread.

Easy to google $300,000 EPA fine and conviction referanced here. I hardly think hauling in and dumping 60 truck loads of "known contaminated toxic waste" from a federal cleanup site, on a farm and then bulldozing it into a protected wetlands qualifies as
"His crime - filling ditches caused by erosion due to the previous owners negligence. No pollution, no blocking running streams, but the simple act of filling in ditches to improve his land resulted in a $300,000+ fine and a felony conviction ".

It was the trucking company that was convicted.

As Indian Charlie always says ..."Never let the facts get in the way of a good story."
 
It was all over the ag media. Clips of him saying with his own lying mouth that if elected he'd name a farmer or rancher to head the EPA. Got him enough rural votes didn't it?
 
Here you go. The "unnamed tributaries" were dry ditches that only flowed when it rained.



http://salinapost.com/2015/04/20/nebraska-man-sentenced-for-violating-clean-water-act-in-kansas/


I guess it was 500,000 in restitution and 20,000 in fines.
 
Give it a year and he'll be hated by all of rural America. End the blending mandate,skrew around with trade...
Yup,happy days are here again!
 
This is the story I was referring to - I understated the cost to Rodney.


TOPEKA, KAN. ? A man who owns property in Jackson County, Kan., was sentenced Friday for violating the federal Clean Water Act according to U.S. Attorney Barry Grissom.

Rodney Heinen, 38, Dawson, Neb., was fined $20,000 and ordered to complete restoration of two properties in Jackson County pursuant to a professional restoration plan that estimated the cost at more than $500,000.

Heinen pleaded guilty to one count of discharging pollutants into a stream without a permit. In his plea, he admitted he caused earthen fill and wood debris to be placed in streams flowing through properties he owns in Jackson County.

A regulatory specialist with the Corps of Engineers discovered the violations on one of Heinen?s properties on Feb. 2, 2012. Heinen refused to allow the Corps of Engineers access to the property to make an environmental assessment. The violation affected several unnamed tributaries to Straight Creek, which drains into the Delaware River, which is classified as a Traditionally Navigable Water.

In 2013, the Corps of Engineers found a similar violation on another property in Jackson County owned by Heinen. The violation affected two unnamed tributaries to North Cedar Creek, which drains into the Delaware River.





The only pollutant ever mentioned by anyone was dirt and wood debris - he dozed dirt and brush into the ditches. The Army Corp of Engineers (who supposedly only regulate navigational waters) got involved because the "unnamed tributaries" (read ditches) flow (when it rains) into a stream and the stream eventually flows into a river. Using that logic the Army Corp of Engineers can regulate your kitchen faucet. My mistake was I thought it was the EPA - not the Corps, both regulate Section 404.

What got Rodney in so much trouble was when the Corp showed up he told them in no uncertain terms to go stuff it. If they wanted on his property (he was in no government programs) they could go get a warrant. Instead they decided to make an example of him. The Corp can go onto anyone's property anytime they want looking for whatever they want. Had they been "law enforcement" looking for a kidnapped child he had buried on his property they would have had to get a warrant - but the Corp, the EPA, FDA, OSHA, ICE, and any number of government "agencies" don't have to abide by the 4th Amendment. If you have a doubt try stopping a game warden from entering your home. The Corp wanted anyone else that thought of defying them to know what happened to the last guy.
 
If they are getting paid to find a link between cancer and eating ice cream plan on hearing about the link between cancer and ice cream and the need for additional government funds to study it further.
 
Greg IF we are having Global warming how does that square with the fact that it has been hotter in the not too distant past. Greenland was farmed about 800 years ago. Now it is too cold for most types of farming. Also the records on temperatures are only several hundred years old. So in the 1970s we where heading to the next big ICEAGE that's what was being taught. Then 30 year later they started teaching Global warming was going to kill us all. Then Mother Nature fooled them by actually getting cooler for a few years. So then it became Climate change!!!! Guess what??? The climate has been changing for a few million years.

The study with the global warming tree ring farce is what I was talking about. They did the test in many places but the results only supported the global warming "Theory" in two or three places. Guess what places where sited in the study???? The political left is banking on gaining control of many things by pushing the Global warming/climate change theory and agenda. It is their KEY to the kingdom for ruling over the rest of us. Since a clear majority of college professors and researchers are also pretty abundant you have the whole gang pushing the theory that is based on junk science and "computer" models. They sure are not looking for any "facts" that would not "fit" their agenda.

They also are playing a long game by teaching the "Theory" as fact to the young people in school. Then tell our children we are terrible/stupid/whatever because we do not support their gaming a theory into controlling things that they could not get done in free elections.
 
Do you know how to do a search? Right after the election,there was said to be a list with three farmers on it. Kip Tom of Indiana was one of them. He's said to be on the list for Ag secretary too.
 
Greg the farming cycles would soon weed out the fools that are knocking the rules of supply and demand. IF they over plant then shortly there would only be the cheapest or best producer left. Now the government programs support too many inefficient producers.
 
(quoted from post at 13:21:39 12/08/16) Brown clouds are still out there. went into LA from Barstow one time brown cloud over LA. Told a mechanic that was working on my truck it looked like someone took a dump
on LA, another mechanic asked what I ment. He laughed and said the other mechanic had never been out of LA so didn't know what clean air looked like.
Click to expand...

The native's name for the LA basion before white man ever set foot there was " valley of smokes".
 
(quoted from post at 16:04:43 12/08/16) I agree that EPA has overreached on some regulations, particularly in agriculture. The most egregious when they attempted to regulate "fugitive dust"! They had no conception of how a farmer could possibly disc a field, combine beans or even drive down his driveway without stirring up some dust. Idiots that come up with ideas like that are what give EPA and all environmental regulations a bad name.
However, what I am concerned about is the drastic roll-back of limits of noxious gasses from coal fired power plants and other industries that have been proven to cause pulmonary ailments and, perhaps cancer. it would be quite ironic if the recently passed legislation called the "Moon shot for Cancer" funded research that found a direct link between coal emissions and cancer, but we can't do anything about it because we stripped regulations and many more coal plants came online.
Click to expand...

Quit talking about old pre emission coal plants. Modern plants are clean.
 
(quoted from post at 13:21:39 12/08/16) Brown clouds are still out there. went into LA from Barstow one time brown cloud over LA. Told a mechanic that was working on my truck it looked like someone took a dump
on LA, another mechanic asked what I ment. He laughed and said the other mechanic had never been out of LA so didn't know what clean air looked like.
Click to expand...

The native's name for the LA basion before white man ever set foot there was " valley of smokes".
 
JD Seller- I understand what you said. My original post was to make a point about how a lot of people complain about wanting less government but, at the same time, they want the benefits the government provides for "THEM".

Much like here in eastern KY, I know many people that supported and voted for our new president. but....they also are collecting government benefits like SNAP, HEAP, WIC, Disability, and the lists goes on but they will proudly tell you they voted for him, just like they did our Governor. They don't even understand that the person(s) they voted for wants to strip those entitlements away. Just like the Speaker of the House wants to do with Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid (he wants to privatize/block grant those entitlements.
 
(quoted from post at 00:25:42 12/09/16) JD Seller- I understand what you said. My original post was to make a point about how a lot of people complain about wanting less government but, at the same time, they want the benefits the government provides for "THEM".

Much like here in eastern KY, I know many people that supported and voted for our new president. but....they also are collecting government benefits like SNAP, HEAP, WIC, Disability, and the lists goes on but they will proudly tell you they voted for him, just like they did our Governor. They don't even understand that the person(s) they voted for wants to strip those entitlements away. Just like the Speaker of the House wants to do with[b:89024971ad] Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid (he wants to privatize/block grant those entitlements.[/b:89024971ad]
Click to expand...

Social Security AND Medicare are NOT entitlements in the sense of the word today. Entitlements today generally mean things that you get for free from the government. We've all paid into the SS and Medicare through our payroll deductions. Now, you can argue about the amount that should be paid in or paid out and I see the day coming when the taxes will be raised and/or benefits reduced, but the fact remains that I am paying for those 2 programs every paycheck. One problem with SS is that people are trying to scam the system by getting on disability before they are eligible for retirement benefits. I know 1 guy who retired at 53, has millions in the bank, got very sick and filed for SS disability at 58. AND HE GOT IT!

Medicaid, WIC, etc are different. The people who receive those benefits pay zero, zilch, nada for them. And they are the feistiest, most arrogant, demanding people to deal with regarding them. (My wife encounters them as a nurse in an urban hospital) They think it's their right to have babies at 15, drop out of school, lay around the house with no ambition and have you and I pay so they can have the same level of health care that we pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars a month for.

Just today on the radio I heard a plea to provide food to kids in SE Michigan during the holiday break. These kids normally get free lunches at school. They said there are 300,000 of them in SE Michigan alone! What are the parents doing? If they can't afford to feed kids, they shouldn't be having them! But I'm sure they all have nice smart phones, tattoos running up and down their arms, gold chains hanging around their necks, decorated nails and fancy hairdos. Anyway, I think there will be some painful adjustments coming for all of us in one form or another, but they're necessary.
 
Years ago a farmer broke the hitch on his pull type sprayer and it dumped the load of corn spray on the ground, so being a guy to do the right thing he called the EPA,, they came in with way too many people and dozed all the spilled ground up into a huge pile and covered it with plastic,, they decided that it would all need hauled away to an approved land fill in another state,,at a tremendous cost,, the old farmer was overwhelmed by the cost and not knowing what to do about it. He confided in a wise old attorney friend and his friend said ,,well that amount of spray was labeled to be spread on so many acres,, so.. why not spread that amount of the contaminated dirt on that amount of acres??? When the idea was presented to the EPA officials they stampered and scratched their heads and said,, well I guess that would be okay,, and all of a sudden a huge expensive problem "went away" ... the moral of this story is the EPA is only interested in levying huge fines and complicating simple issues..
 
I did a search - not a word about it in the first two pages of google. So rather than say you were full shat I figured I'd ask you for the source. I notice you didn't provide one.
 
I have planted 6,000 trees. I am basically a tree farm now. Sold 70 walnuts trees in November.

My trees need carbon. The anti-carbon Nazis have been trying to starve my trees. Help me save the trees !!!!!!!!

:) Gene
 
Gene:

Here's a little something that may make them change their tune . . . We actually have a symbiotic relationship with trees and green
vegetation. They absorb Carbon Dioxide and through photosynthesis give off Oxygen as a waste by-product. We need Oxygen to breathe and we
exhale Carbon Dioxide that the trees and plants need . . . therefore a symbiotic relationship.

:>)
 
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