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2 Stroke Diesels

J

JimS

Member
I am interested in 2 stroke diesels. I saw a restore Ford F-5 and the gentleman had put in a Detroit 2 stroke diesel. What a neat vehicle. It has piqued my curiosity.

My questions are these: What were the last vehicles in this country to come with 2 stroke diesels (I understand Renault is developing one)? What are the pros and cons of a 2 stroke diesel? Would it idle higher that a standard 4 stroke diesel and shift at higher rpm? What about fuel consumption? I think it has potential to produce more horsepower, is this true? Does if have as much torque as a standard 4 stroke diesel? I heard it said they consume oil; true?Any other inputs would be appreciated. I know they are used in other applications. It would be interesting to hear about those applications but I am most interested in their use in vehicles. Thanks
 
I believe that the statement was that the 2-stroke produced more HP per pound of engine weight. not more HP per gallon of fuel. I had to write a spec for a large generator, but engineering put a weight limit on the entire unit. A GM 2-stroke was considerable lighter in weight so that was the only engine that would meet all the requirements. Low fuel consumption was not one of the requirements.
 
(quoted from post at 09:37:08 10/26/16) I am interested in 2 stroke diesels. I saw a restore Ford F-5 and the gentleman had put in a Detroit 2 stroke diesel. What a neat vehicle. It has piqued my curiosity.

My questions are these: What were the last vehicles in this country to come with 2 stroke diesels (I understand Renault is developing one)? What are the pros and cons of a 2 stroke diesel? Would it idle higher that a standard 4 stroke diesel and shift at higher rpm? What about fuel consumption? I think it has potential to produce more horsepower, is this true? Does if have as much torque as a standard 4 stroke diesel? I heard it said they consume oil; true?Any other inputs would be appreciated. I know they are used in other applications. It would be interesting to hear about those applications but I am most interested in their use in vehicles. Thanks
Click to expand...

Some companies still make 2 stroke diesels, like Cat for train engines.

Rick
 
Comments: They are simple and produce nice power when wound up.
They are one of the worlds most produced engine series ever.
They are modular and can be configured to run CCW, CW, left side blower, right side blower, exhaust left or right power from either end , and many configurations from 2, 3,4 6,8 cylinder inline to V configurations to 16 and 24 cylinders. and various displacement per cylinder (51, 53, 71, 92, and much larger cubic inch displacement.)
They are not efficient because they do not scavenge the cylinder as cleanly as a 4 stroke diesel, and they use oil from the get go.
They were phased out due to emissions requirements.
They leak oil from several places
 
We've owned a couple... one (well, a few) as irrigation pumps, and one in a self propelled chopper. Good steady power at high RPMs. Actually, pretty easy on fuel. Had one guy tell me check the fuel and add oil! Lots of power for the size, as two stroke meant twice as many power strokes per turn. Oil would stay clean a REALLY long time for a diesel.

Bad parts: Noisy. Leaked and/or burned oil. Very poor torque at low RPM. I've been told the best way to run one in a truck was to slam your finger in the door first thing in the morning. Then you'd be good and mad at her, and drive it hard. Then they were at their best in a truck. Compared to other technology, they had a really lousy safety system, as well.

They were best on a pump, gravel crusher, ship, etc.
 
When I was new in the field I could pick anything I wanted to be a mechanic on. I got into the Detroit diesels with both feet. For about ten years I always had at least one in for a major. I took a job for a company that had 12 semis running over the road with all Detroits. Then I was building motors on the side at night. Not sure I would do that again. I got good at what I was doing and bought most of the specialty tools, and Detroit then went extinct. We ordered a couple new trucks in 1986 and the screaming Jimmy was not even offered. just Cat, or Cummins. I still get calls from guys who have heard I know how to make a Detroit "run". Couple a year. We had a 1983 and 84 truck that came with GMC engines, but by 86 You couldnt even get one in a GMC Astro truck. My experience was they were good on fuel if not juiced up. The silver 92 fuel pincher was really good on fuel before anyone cared about fuel economy. I was also doggy. I altered, or disconnected many a throttle delay on the rack. A good running 92 would slap you into the seat between shifts like a small block chevy in a camaro. I have had a V12 slip the drives in the low side pulling 165,000 lbs. Pulling gravel trains. You could hear them leaving a stop light for miles. Mean and bad! Those didnt get good mileage, and leaked oil bad. Most guys never checked the oil in the morning, just add a gallon. I want to buy a Detroit powered truck to have around this farm. I miss the sound of it rolling while warming up. They had a different smell also. Hard to explain, but the same as a Kubota exhaust will smell different than a 4020 JD. Al
 
If you try to work on fuel system(rack) and don't know what you are doing they can go from start to explode in a few seconds. Been there seen it!
 
I was surprised that the Detroits don't really turn any more RPMs than a regular 4-stroke diesel. They just SOUND like they're screaming because each cylinder fires on every revolution instead of every other revolution. A Detroit running at 2100RPM sounds like a conventional diesel running at 4200RPM. Double the exhaust pulses, double the noise frequency.

One feed mill around here ran nothing but Detroit powered GMC trucks for a long time. Their motto was "fill the oil, check the fuel" meaning the engines leaked a lot of oil but were very fuel efficient.
 
The most common 2-stroke diesel was Detroit or GM (Jimmy) dsl. "Back in the day ", i drove trucks that had those. I have NO fond memories of those experiences. They leak oil horribly: have no low rpm torque: and I knew of several that would not run a year between rebuilds. Knew of a few that seemed "bulletproof" : but very few. Having to run wide open for power equalled poor mpg. The term "different strokes for different folks "comes to mind here. Some folks praise them. NOT ME. Engine design yielded lower compression compared to 4 strokes of that day so they were easier to start in cold weather. Only advantage they had from my opinion.
 
I drove a sugar beet truck a little with a 6v71 and a 13 speed. The boss told me to open the door and then slam it on your finger, then you will be pi$$ed off! Then drive it like your pi$$ed off, that will work the best for you! I was happy when he put me in a Mack with an Allison automatic. I think one of the main reasons Jimmy's are not made anymore is they could not pass current emissions.
 
For detroits (there are others) I ran and worked on many they do not bother me. If your curious nothing wrong with playing with one on something pump, cordwood saw, whatever. They came out in 1930's helped win WWII. A few trucks had 12 71 cranking out 800 plus hp More show now but they sure moved 50 ton lowbed better than 237 Mack did!!!
 
i worked in a rock quarry for a couple of years.
the crusher i ran was powered by a cat 318 purred like a kitten steady power you couldn't stall it.
the secondary was powered by a 6-71 detroit screamer that d thing sounded like it fly in to a million pieces at any time.
it was so loud i couldn't hear the cat that was 3 feet behind me.
maybe that's why i have constant ringing in my ears now.
No i wouldn't use a detriot for anything other a boat anchor
 
The GM 2-stroke Detroit Diesels had a very long production run for good reasons: They were simple, not terribly expensive and had decent horsepower-to-weight ratios. I should add, "for their day", because they went into production in 1939 and stayed in production until the early nineties. By that time, specific fuel consumption was becoming important, not to mention emissions, and it was time to retire the two-strokes for more modern designs.

There is an even older two-stroke diesel that is still in production: The opposed-piston Fairbanks-Morse 38 8-1/8 engine has been in continuous production since 1938. It's even used as backup power on nuclear submarines.
 
Bingo!

If not for the federales, they would still be outselling any, and perhaps all, other brands.

Dean
 
Winton diesels, bought by GM in the mid 1930s, and the predecessor of Detroits were introduced in the 1920s.

Two cycle diesels were used in submarines, ships and other military applications for very good reasons.

Dean
 
I like my little Allis HD-5 with a 2-71 Detroit, I just play with it but got a big muffler on it to keep the noise down, Sort of!
 
We've got backup generators at work that run the gamut of power plants: four big units (3500 kW) that are turned by Worthington V12 diesels at 514 rpm, two Cat get sets with V12s, and one old, lonely 600V unit powered by a Detroit Diesel. I think it is two 8-71s mated together, 16 cylinders total, with blowers facing opposite directions. Built inside a building, kept warm and dry, with supplied water for engine cooling, it fires up quickly and roars as long as you want it to- I love to run it. Yes, it leaks oil, at one point we were running it for an unusually extended period (3 or 4 days) as we did major work to the normal electrical supply that it backs up, and were were adding about half a gallon per hour, but it usually only runs for a half hour a month or so.
 
Around here the local feed mills had portable grinder mixers with a four cylinder Detroit. Most were on a cab over Ford or Chevy. The portable mill that ground feed for us caught fire twice from oil leaking on the manifold. First time we put it out with snow. Second time it caught fire it was backed up to our corn crib in a tight spot. By a stroke of luck I had a garden hose on a hydrant close enough to use to put the fire out. We bought our own grinder mixer after that.
 
Drove many Detroit 2 cycle engines during my stint in the stage coaches. Mostly 8v71, a few 6v92, & some 8v92turbo.
Had in-house machinist who did all the rebuilding. At around 700k miles they would start to smoke, swap out for one of Tommy's rebuilds, put back in the lineup. His rebuilds never leaked oil. Always neat to watch him test fire a fresh rebuild. Roll it out of the shop on a pallet, hook up temporary battery, fuel, radiator, & muffler. Charge the fuel tank with air, hit the starter, & listen to it purr. He would let it warm up at idle, listen for unfriendly noises, then grab rack & open it up. If no parts went flying he would say, sounds like another good one, ready to go. Usually when doing engine change, they would tie one up for a couple days, go through radiators, tires, brakes etc. then put it on the line, head south, turn around at El Paso or Laredo & head home to Mpls. Drivers slide seats at relay points. In a rush could swap engines in 4 hours. Told me that in his 25+ years of building engines, only had one run away, stuck injector held the rack open.
We considered anything with under 300k miles as a fresh engine. There was one hill climbing out of river valley in Wi, 9% grade, hard second gear pull with a 8v71. Got chance to use a new demo in 92, with Cummins 11 liter. Hit the bottom of the hill at 20 mph, whipped the horses & let her go. Topped the hill at 55-60 mph.

Willie
 
Agreed regarding oil leaks.

Detroits in good condition and properly maintained leak no more oil than other engines.

Dean
 
Dean, what made them a good candidate for submarines? Was it because of the direction of rotation availability?
 
No.

Space is very limited in submarines.

Two stroke diesels, whether Detroits or opposed piston Fairbanks-Moorse engines make much more power in a smaller package than other oher contemporary designs.

The big problem with the Fairbanks opposed piston engines is expense and difficulty of servicing. This killed them in locomotive applications.

For further interesting reading, Google Napier (British) delta marine engines.

Dean
 
In the event that you do not know, this once great country was built on coal and steam. Without both, we all would still be subsistence farming.

The point of diminishing returns regarding EPA nonsense was reached in the 1970s.

Where have you been?

Dean
 
In the late 70's you could get a 4-53 with a turbo. In a C65 chevy truck. I kinda liked them. I drove a IHC 4300 tamdem with 3.73 gears 13 speed trans. With a 8V-92 445hp. it would pull 500hp on the dyno. It would leave black marks if you got on it hard in the low side gears. Cars would pull out to pass and had sometimes to reconsider, when taking off empty. I have a 2-53, in a 435 John Deere. Google 435 J.D. @ Tunica. I think it sounds good!
 
6-71T tight against the governor doing 60 in a tandem dump, empty 21,000, loaded 56,000, still got 6.5 mpg running half empty half loaded miles.

Pretty good for a 79. I miss that truck.
 
(quoted from post at 19:32:21 10/26/16) Dean, what made them a good candidate for submarines? Was it because of the direction of rotation availability?
Click to expand...

IIRC sub engines drove generators which in turn could be either used to charge batteries or power the electric motors that actually drove the boat. So engine rotation wouldn't be much of an issue if you are thinking counter rotating props.

Rick
 
To bad you feel that way. I worked in coal fired industry for 40 years, now I have 2 kind of cancer that cost thousands of dollars a month to treat. I think the EPA is a great thing, should of been enacted sooner! And don't blame it on us nnalert, it was enacted by a nnalert, one of the last good ones!
 
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