Turning Up The Pump - Another Angle?

Reading the post below regarding turning up the injection pump.

Back in the day, I gather one would turn up the JD 4020 or IH 856 so they could pull bigger ground engaging equipment, i.e. 5 vs 4 bottom plow.

Also, back in the day, a New Holland haybine model might require 35 hp minimum. Run it all day long with a MF 135 or Ford 3000 - no issues other than the #$%# cutter bar clogging or grass getting wrapped around the rollers -LOL! Now we've got these discbines and they are IMHO hp hogs. With aggressive fertilizer/lime programs, a well maintained field can yield a LOT of hay. So the old MF 135 or Ford 3000 now doesn't have the guts to pull a discbine. So - you turn to your old iron tractor that is XX hp. You need YY hp or more for the discbine. Pull out the tools and turn it up - just like the old days. The difference is now you're using the hp in front of a PTO - not a drawbar.

My question is - how are these PTO's holding up on old iron tractors with turned up engine hp? I got to believe if you're discbine is taxing your old 4020 or 856, some folks will draw out the tools and turn it up. Anyone busted or known of issues where someone busted their PTO driveline by turning up the injection pump for more hp?

I'm thinking the MFG's had a pretty good idea - back with the 4020's and 856 type tractors were designed that they would have the guts pulled out of them via a drawbar. Would it have crossed their design minds to make the PTO driveline/clutches extra stout too?

Just curious.

Thanks!
Bill

All depends on the tractor, many use same pto and driveline thru many models, for example turn up your Ford 8000 from 105hp to 120 and it still isn't straining anything more than a Ford 9000 which was the same tractor with a turbo and 130hp from the factory.

I think most would have a hard time attributing a PTO failure solely to turning up the HP. 40, 50, 60 years of wear and tear, an unknown history of (ab)use, or just plain old weak/poor design all play a much greater factor in PTO longevity than a few extra ponies.

There are some implements that are naturally hard on PTOs.

I also believe that there's not much "turn it up" going on these days, because all that old iron has already been "turned up" and very few people these days know what to turn, which direction to turn it, and how much to turn it.

The PTO drive line in a 4020 is the same as a 4320,,the PTO in a 4020 will deal with 175 hp all day long,,it will deal with way more than you will dish out..

The PTO drive hub and spline for a White 2-135 is the same one used in some of the smaller oliver tractors. It was under built before you turn it up. Turn up the pump and use it on a chopper or large manure spreader you will eat them out.

Now how about a 5020 ? I heard they have weak pto's. Was a guy up here tried one on a tub grinder and keep tearing clutches out of it. IIRC

A PTO in a 4020 might take 170 hp all day long but the 404 engine won't .

Here's another angle to think about. Some tractors have both 540 and 1000 PTO speeds available, BUT the selection of 540 may be for a limited load. Examples that come to mind are some White and Ford models like the 2-105 and 8600. Both just over 100, but for 540 use not to have more than 75-80 HP load, or driveline damage may happen..

Always been my theory if I needed more HP I'd buy a bigger tractor,if I 'need' 50 HP I want to be running a 60 HP tractor and 70 is better.

Our 4440 has been on this farm 25 years at least. It has always been turned up. The mechanics at Deere used to have a fit about it when it had a priority - we were going to tear it up running 160+ horses through it. It now has 9500 hours on it and has run the moco thousands of hours/acres. That moco will drop a 100 horse tractor to its knees but that 4440 never knows it's back there. It still operates like it should.

I've heard of folks that use TMR wagons tearing out PTOs fairly frequently. I'll avoid hooking one of those to any tractor I own.

Hard to believe, cause dads 4020 ripped the guts out of the pto at 2500 hours with a 1 row chopper and a gas motor, 94 horse! They all won't last is all!

The 404 in a 4020 will not take 170 HP all day long. A 404 in a 4630 will take 170 all day long. A neighbor turned both of his 4630's to 200 HP and pulled them that way all day long and they lasted. The flywheel bolts on the powershift 4630 did not last.

A 4440 will live well at 160 HP,,a lot of them like that around here with no problems after many years of service.

Something must have been wrong from the factory because we have chopped thousands of acres with a two row Deere chopper or a hay head with our 4020. We also spent lots of hours on an 8 ft. silage bagger and that works it harder than a chopper. With high hours and turned up hp they do get a whine in the pto gears but no problem yet. Tom

The 404 in a 4020 will not take 170 HP all day long. A 404 in a 4630 will take 170 all day long. A neighbor turned both of his 4630's to 200 HP and pulled them that way all day long and they lasted. The flywheel bolts on the powershift 4630 did not last.[/quote]

A real honest to goodness dynometer verified 200HP at the pto or rear wheels from a 1970's , two valve Turbo 404 with minimal intercooling ? Quote " and pulled them that way all day long and they lasted. " Unquote.
Could be a bit of a stretch on the facts there.

Turned up usually isn't going to fail pto clutches, Once in they seem to hold on most models like case, jd, ford, ih, what I have seen tear out pto clutches is putting a big load on and kicking in the pto, a lot of slipping, and if not idled down, pto clutch suffers, like on a tub grinder, or a big baler with hay in it somewhere, idle it down, kick it in, and throttle up. Like case and jd, they require fluid pressure to clamp the clutch plates, lower rpm is less fluid, more apt to slip. We have done pto work by the thousands of hours, baler, stacker, grain auger, sprayer, tiller, mower, round baler, as well as I can remember, never had a pto clutch problem, ran case, jd, massey, all ok. JD turned up and case opened up, just idle it and kick it in. if bolts shear then stop and figure out why. I have seen lots of tractors get tub grinders loaded or corn choppers loaded and revved up and try to kick pto in. BAD BAD BAD!!

Back when I worked at the local Massey dealer in early 90's, local feedlot bought an 1155 Massey, to use on a tub grinder. It was turbo'ed and pushing 175hp.
That thing had a nasty habit of breaking the PTO shaft that ran from the flywheel back to the PTO clutch, and it always broke back at the PTO clutch, a big job to fix.
After about the 3rd one, we filed a groove in the shaft with a triangular file, up behind the splines at the flywheel hub end, so it'd break there.
Much easier fix that way.
They finally scattered the Perkins and replaced it with an 8440 Deere.