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Antique vs modern horsepower for kicker, baler, wagon combo

B

BigMaineWomen

Member
Hi all, i've been on the forums lurking for a while and am looking to get a little help as i pick up more equipment to start a 30 acre haying operation. My 25 horse kubota is much too small and my limited budget doesnt allow for anything recent.

First of all, with looking at other peoples posts and experience, i think i want about 65 PTO horsepower to be able to run a NH 311 square baler with a kicker in to a wagon. Some have said tractor weight is more important than pto HP because you dont want to get pushed down a hill by a full wagon. I know i certainly don't want that and some of the fields do have a fair slope to them.

I've seen some older farmalls for sale like a nice local 1967 424 which is a 37 PTO horsepower machine. It is only going to weight in at around 4,000 lb. Is this both too small on HP and too low on weight for me?

I've also seen a Kubota M4500DT, 50 PTO horsepower with a loader and 4wd. This is about a 1980's machine that will definitely weigh more with its 6 cyl diesel, loader and 4wd, but is the horsepower enough to comfortable do a baler, kicker and full wagon up a small slope? Or down a slope?

I am trying not to get myself in to a situation where i dont have enough tractor but i dont have a lot of money to go out and buy something with 90 horse on the PTO.

I've read that torque numbers on some of the old tractors are high enough that they will run machinery without a problem even though they are at the minimum HP requirements for them. Is there truth to this?

If i can get my hands on something like an International 656, would i be best off? Can I run with something smaller? Should I?

Thanks for any responses, i really appreciate the help.
 
Just how "limited" is your budget? How many rocks are in the fields? Older sickle bar type mower conditioners work well but they do not like rocks nor do most other types of farm machinery like rocks.
 
You will need weight and HP to pull a baler with a wagon. Baler itself would be fine with any of the machines you mentioned. I'd go with the 656, but I'm an old iron fan. The bigger Kubota would do ok as well. We did a LOT of baling as a kid with a Case 1490 on the baler pulling racks of 150-175 bales in some fair sized hills. Tractor data shows that to be an 80 horse tractor.
AaronSEIA
 
baled a lot of hay n straw small squares with a 424 in the 70's
and the guy I bought my Allis Chalmers WD (28 hp) from used it over his 90 hp massey for small squares for yrs he switched to big rounds is why he sold it
and we had hills too
but I agree a heaver tractor will keep from getting pushed around on hills
my suggestion would be a Massey 150 165 190 or the newer ones 1165 etc
but there's lots of 50 - 75 hp older tractors with good parts support quite capable of the job a lot depends on what dealers you have near by for parts
YT here has a very good parts supply but it will take a couple days to get them
the Kabota with the loader would be my choice once you have a tractor with a loader you'll wonder how you lived with out it and 4x4 is nice to have as well in wet conditions
good luck in your search and welcome to the forums
 
I appreciate the input. The fields aren't bad with rocks, I plan on using something like an older nh mower conditioner. I can't afford a disc bine or the horsepower to run it.
I'd really like to spend less than 5k on my tractor but I could do 7K for the right one. My plan was to get a tractor, two wagons, a moco, rake, tedder and kicker baler for as close to 15k as possible. Right now I'm 5k in to a kicker wagon and my NH 311 with kicker.
The small farmall I saw was 2500 so I got a little excited. I think I could run the baler and do a separate trip with a wagon but it's just my wife and I so I'd like to have the machinery do as much work as i can.
Is that kubota really big enough to run the operation? I would be a lot more comfortable with 80 horse like was mentioned but they don't show up for sale real often.
 
I do have a friend with a super M that's just sitting (not for sale but I'm sure it could be) but I wouldn't think it was big enough to do what I'm asking. I'll defer to you guys on that though.
 

Ran baler and wagon combo for years here with 30-40 PTO HP class British IH's

Biggest and heaviest was 495 Case IH @ 42 PTO HP weighing about 6k minus loader (loaded 14.9's) No issues with 125 bales on loaded rack in moderate hills here.

I'd be looking for a 74 or 84 series IH in your price range. diesel power, diff lock, 3pt IPTO, syncro trans and will handle all your haying needs.
 
I've baled with my M with no problem. If I were to put a wagon behind it I would weight it up on the rears.

I think your idea of a 656 or even 756 would be great. Good tractors. You could get a gas pretty cheap. The gas ones like their fuel, but they were excellent machines at a lower initial cost. You won't be choring with it everyday so fuel might not be a big deal.

I think your hitch could be the moco. I have a disk mower with flail conditioner and it takes some serious horsepower. I run it on my 886 if I have to, but it can pull it to its knees pretty easy. Those flail conditioners take the ponies, though.
 
I've baled hay on level ground with an Oliver 60. (19 hp, around 4,000 with the tires loaded). I wouldn't do it on steep hills even without a wagon behind. Baled a good many thousands of bales with a S-88 on hills towing wagons. Tire loaded with a set of wheel weights. Our hills are nasty and we had to pick and choose where we tackled the hills with heavily loaded wagons. Ford 5000, S-88/880/1550 Oliver, 3010 JD, Super M/400/450 Farmall sized tractors are a good place to start. All of those tractors with loaded tires and maybe a set of weights are 7,000 to 8,000 lb. tractors. The IH 656, 3020 JD, 830 Case, 1650 Oliver, 185 AC, sized tractors set up as mentioned are all 8,000 to 10,000 lb. tractors. A lot depends on the size of the wagon you are pulling behind the baler. 15 foot racks holding 100-125 bales is one thing. 20 foot racks holding 225 bales is another matter entirely.

If that Super M is in good shape and priced right, you could do worse.
 
I agree with notjustair - a 656 or 756 would be a great. Getting up into that range gets you better brakes too. I bale with an Oliver 1755 and a NH 316 baler with 8'x18' kicker wagons, and run a lot of steep ground. With hills you need to take small bites and chew them well - when you mow, keep in mind how you want to bale - you want to be able to start your load on the steep ground, and finish up where it lays a little flatter. As far as cost, I can tell you what I spent
Oliver 1755 - $6500
NH 316 - $2500 + 500 for repairs
IH 990 haybine - $600
IH 35 rake - $400 + $200 in repairs
Deutz Fahr 18' tedder - $1200
I built my own wagons, but I'd figure $1000 to $2000 per wagon for used ones
Good luck - doing hay can be a little nerve wracking, but when you get it in ahead of the storm, it's a great feeling...
Pete
 
I do really like the old Fords and wouldn't mind a 5000 at all but the 4000 I think would be a little small.

On something like a 1970 Ford 5000 did they come with rear remotes to run a kicker? If not, have owners typically installed them (not sure if this is possible or usual)? If you can install them but they aren't currentry on the tractor, what kind of cost is involved?

Thanks a lot
 
good 830 case is decent for that job too. I baled lots with my 312 case but never pulled a wagon.we had a nh stak wagon
 
I am pretty sure that I have you all beat here. I had a NH Kicker, pulled with a CC Case. Had to finish before it rained, baled about 10 acres. I did not have hydraulics for the kicker, and I had to get everything up to speed before I entered the windrow. Every time it kicked a bale the tractor would groan, but it got the job done.
 
Wow they stopped making the CC in '39. I really appreciate all the tractor models and your experience Pete.

Does anyone know about the remote questions on the older tractors?
 
back in the 80s and all through the 90s i plum wore out a nh 310 with a kicker pulled it with a 4600 ford and was verry happy with it. when i up graded to a newer nh i also got some 18 ft wagons and switched to a 6600 ford it does great stay away from them older tractors that do no t have good breaks.
 
I use a u302 super mm with a 276 nh square baler. Never been short on Hp with or without wagon. Baler is well tuned and tractor is ready for anything I encounter. Don't make a lot of bales each year but have never wished for more tractor. Buy an old American (or Canadian made Massey) and make America great again!
 
Skip the Super M that your friend has unless it just happens to be a SMTA. Super M will not have live PTO where a SMTA does. Better off with a Farmall 400 or Farmall 450 in this class of tractor as those will have live PTO and be immensely cheaper than the highly collectable SMTA but otherwise very similar other than sheet metal.

I bale without live PTO (Farmall plain M and Farmall plain h)without too much problem at all, but I would not advise anyone to purposely buy either with sole intent of baling operation.
 
I'd be looking for an Allis Chalmers D17 they're usually very reasonable and should handle the baler with some wheel weights or fluid in the tires,plus the
high/low gives you 8 gears forward.Definitely wouldn't go with anything without some sort of Independent PTO where you can stop the tractor and the PTO keeps running.
Also many times you can buy a 80HP tractor cheaper than a 40 HP because of demand is more for the smaller tractors.I have several tractors I use that I paid less than $2,000 for that
would work for you,examples Oliver 1365 diesel,Oliver 1550 diesel,IH 464 Industrial gas,David Brown 1200,David Brown 990,Oliver 1465,Oliver 1550 gas all that comes to mind right now.
 
I have bale thousands of bales with my 730 Case , with a bale thrower ,, and wagon in tow . The size of the wagons could be some thing to think about , my wagons were only 16 foot racks , and would hold around 100 kicked bales. If you had 24 foot long wagons , maybe a bigger tractor would be needed
 
I had one of those Kubota 4500DT 6 cylinder things. It was horrible. Gutless as a stepped on mouse. Couldn't pull a dead mouse down a hill. If there was a thermostat in it the thing would get hot doing any kind of work at all in the summer. If there was no thermostat in it when you plugged it in during the winter the heated antifreeze would circulate through the rad and it would never get warm enough to start. I think it even got hot in the summer without a thermostat. I understand there was a 4 cylinder version which was much better. A 4 cylinder one or any other similar sized Kubota or any other similar sized tractor except a Universal would be better. In short, don't walk away from that Kubota RUN AWAY!
 
It seems to me that running a square baler with a four wheel drive tractor with a loader would be like dancing with a fat girl. Not that much fun
 

Wow thanks old harv. That model seems fairly rare so I haven't been able to get a lot of input but it is great to hear some first hand experience. I will cross it off the list!
 
We did some baling with our IH B275, kind of light! We normally used a JD R on a 14T (I think) with a kicker, but the R was in the shop. Every time it would kick a bale into the wagon it seemed like the back of the 275 jumped off the ground! Good thing we had flat ground.
 

Ford 5000, 5600 7000, 7600, Case 830, 930, 970, Farmall 656, All will have enough weight and HP. If they don't already have the valves, they are easy to get. Most tractors of that size and age have a valve often two. That Kubota would have adequate power and weight. Guys tend to have a lot of trouble with those older JD hydraulic throwers, especially any over 15 years old. It is almost always the control valve. When Case bought out IH somehow Case ended up being the orphan. You can get a really stout Case 1490 or 1690 in beautiful condition for real reasonable money. Check them on tractor house.
 
The hydrolic for a kicker must be a different type of thrower than I had on my IHC 46 baler that did not use hydrolics that I pulled with a 49 B John Deere of 28 PTO HP and no live power. 16 ft wagons and just gently rolling ground. The B handled the baler better than the 39 PTO HP John Deere AR did. And the 41 Farmall H with 27 PTO HP handled the Case 555 9' mower-conditioner just fine. Never needed more power than the H had. And all tractors had loaded rear tires as we plowed and worked ground with them. Later had Ford 3 cylinder 4000 and 5000 And the old Deeres were way better on pto work without live PTO than the Fords were with independent PTO, I hated that setup, tried running the PTO powered combine one time with a 4000 and the B John deere handled it better than the Ford.
 
Maine (from your posting name) could be cool and damp for drying hay. Your kicker wagons will let you bale as fast as your baler can spit the bales out. If you have an off-farm job time your time available to bale thirty acres of hay while the weather is good could be very limited. If so, I would steer clear of any pre-1960 tractors and look for a 1960's or newer 70 to 100 HP tractor with hydraulic brakes and an eight plus speed transmission. A larger tractor will let you bale faster, pull larger bale wagons safely on hills and safely transport the baler and a full wagon down the road in one trip. Those tractors may a have hydraulic shift-on-the-go that does not freewheel down hills like the older mechanical shift-on-the-go will do in low.

If money is limited, gas tractors sell for around $2000 less than a diesel of the same model. A gas tractor will use about 1/3 more fuel, but cost 1/2 as much to repair and overhaul. It takes several thousand hours of use to make back the higher price of a diesel.
 
Parts support! If you don't have that you don't want it. Here we have good support for JD, CaseIH (so Case, IH/Farmall and Ford) and Kubota. Anything else is either a long drive or at best next day shipping added on to the price. When you have hay on the ground ready to bale and rain in the forecast that isn't good.

I too would go with 1960 or newer. Also in the 60-70 HP range or at least near it. 1960 and new generally has good brakes and better seats. Most often here the guys that bales never ran more than about 1/2 throttle so even gas won't be that bad. I saw a 706 gas Farmall (nice tractor with near new rear tires) a Case 830 gas (needed paint 90% rubber) and a D17 gas AC, loader (good rubber decent tin) all sell at the same auction for under 2K. Most hobby farmers consider them too big and the other farmers are big enough that they are too small for even a chore tractor. Location will play a big factor in pricing.

As far as a tractor with 4X4? Well that depends. I just did some baling yesterday with a CaseIH MX120 with a loader and bale forks, JD 336 baler with kicker and of course the wagon. It was the first time I used this setup. Belongs to my BIL. Just helping out. It was very pleasant to operate and that baler just kicks out bale after bale without any problems.

If I were going to start baling 30 acres to sell I would want the best equipment I could afford because buyers of squares are normally horse people who are very picky about the hay. So you don't want it rained on or laying in the field too long. I'd actually go with big rounds because cattle growers are not as picky and their checks are most often good. :lol:

Rick
 
Thank you Rick, ss55 and others. I think that is good advice. I feel a lot better now about the tractor i want and what you guys have recommended is generally about 60 pto horsepower or more. I think i will stick with that.

I checked craigslist in maine and New hampshire for a lot of the models you mentioned and had very limited success. Most searches come up empty and what is generally available is way more than i can afford/am willing to spend. I think i can get an 80 horse tractor from the 70's for fair money, its just going to be a waiting game until one shows up.

Come fall does a lot of haying equipment generally come up for sale? Is it typically equipment that has been used for the year and farmers decided to move on or is it mostly equipment that didnt get used and it was more of a "well i'm not using it, might as well sell it" kind of thing.

I'm a pretty handy auto mechanic but i don't have a full garage yet and i dont want to start myself out with equipment in need of much attention. At nearly 50 years old I figure they will need plenty of attention just getting them in good working shape.

My wife and i both have full time jobs and are hoping to start a family soon so i will not have much time. Of course i will still have to make hay when the sun shines and i am prepared to take vacation time for that, which my work will be pretty good at allowing as long as i haven't scheduled myself something i cant miss.
 
Models that will do what you want and shouldn't be too expensive:

IH Farmall:

460, 560, 656, 706/66 maybe 806/26/56

JD:

3020

Case:

7/830, 7/870 and maybe 970

AC:

D17/19, 175/80

Oilallover (Oliver):

1600-1800 series

Ford:

5000 and 6600.

Now I only listed older tractors. There are some other brands out there. Of the above the most expensive in my area are the JDs and Fords.

It may be worth it to expand your search out a little more. Sometimes you can find a deal that makes shipping affordable.

Rick
 

Check out Moe's equipment in Derby VT. There is a lot more farming going on in Northeastern VT than all of Maine and NH put together, so that is the nearest area to you where you would be likely to find something.
 
Haha you really like the Canadian border don't you? Van buren is about 5 hours away without a trailer. Both of these tractors are double my budget though. Unfortunately there just isn't enough money for those. There is a cheaper 4020 about 5 hours away but I'd like to find something a little closer if possible. If it gets to crunch time next spring I won't have a choice to travel but I still am restricted to around 5 thousand. I do not have anything bigger than snowmobile trailer so it would be nice if it was less than 50 miles and I could drive it home. Any more than that and I will probably need to rent a trailer.

I'm in the central maine area, between augusta and lewiston.
 
I do appreciate the help looking though. And thank you old tanker for the list, I will certainly put it to good use, probably broadening my search area towards VT.
 
(quoted from post at 18:05:51 08/08/16) You will need weight and HP to pull a baler with a wagon. Baler itself would be fine with any of the machines you mentioned. I'd go with the 656, but I'm an old iron fan. The bigger Kubota would do ok as well. We did a LOT of baling as a kid with a Case 1490 on the baler pulling racks of 150-175 bales in some fair sized hills. Tractor data shows that to be an 80 horse tractor.
AaronSEIA
Click to expand...

1490 is 70 PTO hp, 80 gross flywheel.
 
I also use a Ford 6600. It is ideal for my baler, a 124 Massey.
The high range and low range in 3rd gear is just right. 70JD didn't work well
as 1rst gear is too fast for the large alfalfa windrows I rake.
720 a bit better, but as much as I like using the two-cylinder deeres,
the Ford is so much better. Second choice is my 1650 Oliver.
 
I would LOVE to get my hands on a 6600 for a fair price. Something with average hours, maintained and without a loader should be in my budget. Unfortunately i can't find any for sale. Within a few hundred miles. Is there typically a lot of tractors and hay equipment that comes up for sale in the fall after haying season?

Thank you
 

A HP is a HP is a HP no matter how it is developed .
Many people however have no clue what T X RPM/5252 = HP means . Nor do they grasp concepts such as volumetric efficiency and torque rise.
 
(quoted from post at 10:38:37 08/11/16)
A HP is a HP is a HP no matter how it is developed .
Many people however have no clue what T X RPM/5252 = HP means . Nor do they grasp concepts such as volumetric efficiency and torque rise.
Click to expand...

I'm a motorhead so I do understand that and peak torque, but in horsepower comparisons it seems like people can run certain implements with 30 horsepower from the 1960's. Plus, unless it's been completely overhauled you know that machine isnt putting out the same power as it did 50 years ago. Compare that to a 30 horsepower kubota today and its just not going to happen, the tractor is too light.

I was thinking the heavier pulleys, gears and shafts from the old machines make the same horsepower numbers seem to carry farther due to conservation of momentum. If i get in to a windrow with a clump, would the older machine not bog as hard because it takes more to slow all that weight down?

I've never made a bale of hay in my life, i'm trying to learn and get in to it without breaking the bank. My wife is a lot more experienced than i am but has never owned her own equipment. If i can use an older tractor with less horsepower so its easier on my wallet, that sounds great to me. If i can't, that's okay too I just need to look a little harder and longer for a deal.
 

Been a few articles lately on the Deere board on getting the 3020/4020 gas models to run right. I would spend a while reading the threads to know what the issues are. From my reading I would lean towards the 4020 if green paint is in your sights. That is what I would buy if I needed another larger tractor. Can get a gas 4020 with syncro for around 5-7K here (sometimes less if you move quickly) in original clothing. Won't even look at a repainted tractor. Too easy to hide faults.

I have a Deere 65hp 2550 diesel and it works very well for my round baling needs. But is was around $10K bought 5 years ago.

My squares get made with a 2000 Ford 3cyl gas that runs perfect, with 8 speed and power steering. Just right for my NH 68 baler. Even pulls a trailer behind with 2 guys stacking. But we are in the prairie region of Ill so not much hills to mess with. The deere is used for cutting and round baling. The ford is used for tedding, raking and squares. A nice division of labor.

Wish it would stop raining here so we can get back to baling. Have not cut hay in almost a month.

John
 

One more point. Baling would be a complete pain on a 2000 ford with the 4 speed and no live pto. I would just as soon kill myself. 8 speed, power steering and live pto - whole new ball game.

John
 
Thanks John, we are only just getting the rain up here after being a month without. Seems like this year everybody has rain or shine but not both.
 
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