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Tier 5 may be on it way 2019-20

Geo-TH,In

Geo-TH,In

Well-known Member
Looks like I might get my bucket tractor, minus the narrow front end if EPA follows the rest of the world.

The scope of Stage V in Europe, however, will differ somewhat from all the regulations that came before it, says Payne. Previous regs exempted engines under 24 horsepower. Stage 5 will likely cover all engines regardless of horsepower. The rules for flex credits and transitional engines, which gave some manufacturers breathing room in the old regulations, would likely be restricted in a Stage V scenario, Payne says.
Link
 
Told you so.

The federales know no bounds and will never stop the nonsense.

If they did, there would be no need for their enormous bureaucracy.

Have you ever heard of any federal agency stating that the job that we were created to do is done and we can now dissolve in order to save taxpayer money?

Didn't think so, and you never will.

Dean
 
Tier 5, Tier 6, Tier 7....

Federales will be federales.

There will never be an end to the nonsense.

Dean
 
It seems strange he says about how these strict laws are already in place overseas ? That does not sound quite right ? For one reason VW just got a big fine for cars sent only to the USA that had the special computer program to defeat the strict USA regulations. I do not thing I heard where the cars had this problem in other countries ?
Also here at work we always had issues building machine for USA especially California and their special registrations. I don't recall hearing much about when machines went to Canada or other countries overseas. Some we could not build complete here but could build without an engine and Africa could stick an old engine in them.
I know this tier stuff is a VERY complicated issue and even the big engine companies cannot provide us with good answers so we can plan our machines around them here at work.
 
(quoted from post at 15:20:42 07/28/16) Told you so.

The federales know no bounds and will never stop the nonsense.

If they did, there would be no need for their enormous bureaucracy.

Have you ever heard of any federal agency stating that the job that we were created to do is done and we can now dissolve in order to save taxpayer money?

Didn't think so, and you never will.

Dean
Click to expand...
ow Dean, how can the bureaucrats continue their record setting pace without more tax money & more bureaucrats?!
2015 was a record-setting year for the Federal Register, according to numbers the Competitive Enterprise Institute in Washington, D.C., released Wednesday.

This year’s daily publication of the federal government’s rules, proposed rules and notices amounted to 81,611 pages as of Wednesday, higher than last year's 77,687 pages and higher than the all-time high of 81,405 pages in 2010 — with one day to go in 2015.
there have been 3,378 final rules and regulations among the pages of the Federal Register this year. Some of the major final rules included the Environmental Protection Agency’s Clean Power Plan and its Waters of the Unites States rule, as well as the Federal Communications Commission’s net neutrality order.

another 2,334 proposed rules were issued in 2015 and are at various stages of consideration. On top of that, President external_link issued 29 executive orders and 31 executive memorandums.
............and so it goes. :cry:
 
They have to perform a study to see if the said job was finished,,the study and research and documentation of the study and research costs more than the said job? lol
 
Wasn't it originally called tier 4 final, as in last tier. It's really getting ridiculous and I don't think that the general public realized how much this costs them in the long run. I take care of a fleet of around 50 pieces and believe me the newest ones with emissions are by far the most expensive to keep going
 
Dean, you're so cynical! You should have more faith in the integrity of our hard-working government servants.
 
To my surprise the EPA isn't the world leader, it follows EU stages years later. I wish we had someone from Europe to confirm or deny what I'm about to post.

Here is a summary list of the standards, when they come into force, what they apply to, and which EU directives provide the definition of the standard.

Euro 1 (1993):
For passenger cars - 91/441/EEC [11].
Also for passenger cars and light trucks - 93/59/EEC.
Euro 2 (1996) for passenger cars - 94/12/EC (& 96/69/EC)
Euro 3 (2000) for any vehicle - 98/69/EC [12]
Euro 4 (2005) for any vehicle - 98/69/EC (& 2002/80/EC)
Euro 5 (2008/9) and Euro 6 (2014) for light passenger and commercial vehicles

The EU calls theirs stages, we call them Tiers.
Notice the EU is now at stage 6. Stage 5 in 2008/9)

VW cheating scandal dates back to 2009. I read where the cheating scandal was labeled by Audi engineers as a noise reduction program, when really it may have been needed to be stage 5 compliant in 2009.

Again, I wish someone from Germany could give us the real low down on VW. I remember we had a YT member, Dave2 I think, that lived in Germany. I think he got the boot.

So it sounds to me the EPA does have an original idea, it plays following the leader, the EU, years after the EU has implemented them? Is our EPA driven by political winds or do global companies like Cummins and Perkins want the US to follow the EU lead? Both executives for Cummins and Perkins said tier 5 is very easy to do.

It surprised me to learn form the original post that ALL diesel engines, including small ones, will need to be Tier 5 compliant. I couldn't find where the EU is doing that.
EU standards
 
Larry, read my follow up. Sounds to me like the EPA isn't as smart as we think when it comes to setting standards and doing research. The EPA simply follows the EU lead years later. We are years behind Europe. geo
 
If you love the rules over there so much move over there!!!!

Myself I would enjoy freedom more. I sick of hearing how GREAT the EPA is. When they drive all the jobs out of this country and make the vehicles so expensive that no working man can afford one then I guess their job is done.

I do not want dirty water or air but the rules need to be tempered with some common sense. The Freon rules are stupid. So I would bet that the other rules on chemicals are just as bad.
 

The ultimate plan for our own good is to eventually regulate all ICE's out of existence except military and police equipment . The 70's or 80's movie " the last race" with Lee Majors is probably a favourite of the EPA's new world order zealots .
 
(quoted from post at 16:21:22 07/28/16) It seems strange he says about how these strict laws are already in place overseas ? That does not sound quite right ? For one reason VW just got a big fine for cars sent only to the USA that had the special computer program to defeat the strict USA regulations. I do not thing I heard where the cars had this problem in other countries ?
Also here at work we always had issues building machine for USA especially California and their special registrations. I don't recall hearing much about when machines went to Canada or other countries overseas. Some we could not build complete here but could build without an engine and Africa could stick an old engine in them.
I know this tier stuff is a VERY complicated issue and even the big engine companies cannot provide us with good answers so we can plan our machines around them here at work.
Click to expand...
Canada is overseas ? The Socalist Canadian Governemt beaurocrates have their noses stuck up the EPA'a arse and approve regulations before California does.
 
I'm elated with what the EPA is about to do. On the other hand anyone who doesn't like what the EPA is doing can follow your advice, move to a country that doesn't have an EPA, LIKE CHINA.

Many countries are upset with the US for lagging behind when it comes to environmental issues. I'm guessing our president is pressured into making changes by other countries because we are years behind our allies.
 
Are you sure their nose isn't stuck up some place in Europe? If our EPA adopts tier 5 in 2019 we will be 10 years behind EU stage 5. EU already is at stage 6.

Doesn't sound to me the EPA has an original Idea, just copy EU stage.
 
after reading all of this
the simple solution would be to go back to using horses or oxen
then all you'll need to worry about will be methane output
 
Can't speak for on-road engines but for off-highway engines the EU and EPA are currently following the same emissions regulations. There is no difference in the engines (mechanical or software) or aftertreatment systems between the engines our company installs in US-built machines for domestic sale and those used in Europe. Just think of the nightmare it would be for farm equipment manufacturers if the two places had different regulations. It is a different situation than for automobiles where there is high enough quantities to justify dedicated versions for each region.

Seems like no matter what some folks here will complain - some (well, at least one person) say the EPA is behind the times and others say that they are too intrusive.
 
Europe emissions reg are NOT as strict as the dingbat US EPA. A very significant number of cars sold in Europe are diesel and cannot be sold here as they don't meet EPA regs. I have been in Europe numerous times and am amazed that nearly every car is available gas or diesel. The high speeds on the autobahn burn large amounts of fuel, diesel simply gets much better efficiency. I was very impressed with the performance and mileage the Ford Focus C-Max diesel wagon we rented. I wish I could buy it here, but the EPA is hell-bent on lies and extra fuel burn to keep the exhaust "clean"
 
(quoted from post at 17:24:48 07/28/16) Europe emissions reg are NOT as strict as the dingbat US EPA. A very significant number of cars sold in Europe are diesel and cannot be sold here as they don't meet EPA regs. I have been in Europe numerous times and am amazed that nearly every car is available gas or diesel. The high speeds on the autobahn burn large amounts of fuel, diesel simply gets much better efficiency. I was very impressed with the performance and mileage the Ford Focus C-Max diesel wagon we rented. I wish I could buy it here, but the EPA is hell-bent on lies and extra fuel burn to keep the exhaust "clean"
Click to expand...


Correct! That's the key. You are being told that they are stricter than the US but in reality they are not! They are signing onto non binding agreements that mandate these standards but there are clauses that allow them to bow out and they use every one. This whole world effort is a sham. It's designed to bring everyone to the same standard of living in the "one world concept". The thing they forget to tell us is that it moves jobs out of our country to other countries making more jobs available there while BRING US DOWN. There is no way to bring even 1/4th of the 3rd world countries up to our standard of living so in an effort to make everything even they will bring us down to that level.

Rick
 
oldtanker,

The more I research the topic, the more I think what we know about the EPA making up the rules may be a sham too. Here is my take on it. The EPA is under the thumb of the president. The president is under pressure form the World Health Organization, WHO.

I'm thinking European countries are feeling the same pressure from the WHO and acting before we do. Each country may have slightly different time tables and slightly different standards, but they are all working for a cleaner earth, not only when it comes to exhaust standards, everything.

So we may be unfairly blaming the wrong organization, the EPA, instead of blaming the WHO.

My big question is who is behind the WHO, or what is the driving forces behind the WHO?

Everything seems to be driven my money, so who is bankrolling the WHO?

I always thought the EPA was an out of control agency. I'm not so sure the real driving forces might be the WHO. (WHO??? wasn't the WHO a rock band?)

Wish we had YT members in other countries post their take on the World Health Organization, their version of our EPA.

I know I'm going to take heat for saying this, but has that ever stopped me in the past??? So watch the rotten tomatoes come flying.

One of the first things our president did was reinstated CAFE standards requiring all cars, vans and pick ups to get over 50 mpg by a certain date. Which in my opinion, not only reduces air pollution, but it may be one of the driving forces behind cheap oil. Cars exported to the US from other countries must get better mileage. Even cars made in US and exported get better mileage. So perhaps in a small way, I think, all the world benefits by our CAFE standards.

I'm sure there are other forces at work driving oil prices down, world demand, slower economies, but I think our CAFE standards may be a force. Can anyone agree before you hit me with tomatoes???

Please enlighten me, who is behind the WHO???
 
(quoted from post at 19:34:28 07/28/16) I'm elated with what the EPA is about to do. On the other hand anyone who doesn't like what the EPA is doing can follow your advice, move to a country that doesn't have an EPA, LIKE CHINA.

Many countries are upset with the US for lagging behind when it comes to environmental issues. I'm guessing our president is pressured into making changes by other countries because we are years behind our allies.
Click to expand...

Can you not tell the difference between realistic and worthwhile regulations vs regulation down to the last tiniest little spec that makes no difference . There comes a point where more is not better. Unless you are employed by the EPA bureaucracy .
 
(quoted from post at 07:32:19 07/29/16) oldtanker,

The more I research the topic, the more I think what we know about the EPA making up the rules may be a sham too. Here is my take on it. The EPA is under the thumb of the president. The president is under pressure form the World Health Organization, WHO.

I'm thinking European countries are feeling the same pressure from the WHO and acting before we do. Each country may have slightly different time tables and slightly different standards, but they are all working for a cleaner earth, not only when it comes to exhaust standards, everything.

So we may be unfairly blaming the wrong organization, the EPA, instead of blaming the WHO.

My big question is who is behind the WHO, or what is the driving forces behind the WHO?

Everything seems to be driven my money, so who is bankrolling the WHO?

I always thought the EPA was an out of control agency. I'm not so sure the real driving forces might be the WHO. (WHO??? wasn't the WHO a rock band?)

Wish we had YT members in other countries post their take on the World Health Organization, their version of our EPA.

I know I'm going to take heat for saying this, but has that ever stopped me in the past??? So watch the rotten tomatoes come flying.

One of the first things our president did was reinstated CAFE standards requiring all cars, vans and pick ups to get over 50 mpg by a certain date. Which in my opinion, not only reduces air pollution, but it may be one of the driving forces behind cheap oil. Cars exported to the US from other countries must get better mileage. Even cars made in US and exported get better mileage. So perhaps in a small way, I think, all the world benefits by our CAFE standards.

I'm sure there are other forces at work driving oil prices down, world demand, slower economies, but I think our CAFE standards may be a force. Can anyone agree before you hit me with tomatoes???

Please enlighten me, who is behind the WHO???
Click to expand...

Do you think the president of the United States has enough power to pass policy to re-write the laws of physics ? Or increase the btu' s in a gallon of gasoline above 115,000?
 
the EU doesn't follow the standard.

had a diesel rental car in Ireland in June. got 50-51 mpg. it was about the size of a Chrysler 200. had plenty of pep but with only 2 people. 5 would have been a challenge anyway... that same car in the us wouldn't have gotten better than 40-45ish due to our emissions rules. seems like high emmissions control = lower mileage = more fuel burned = more pollution... same thing with burning NG instead of coal.. takes more NG btu input to get the same power out.. (NG has too much water in it... naturally)

many of them also heat the houses with fuel oil = diesel with no emissions control. yeah, alot of us do here too (less after fuel oil hit $4) many also heat their houses with coal too. as we all know "coal is bad" (extreme sarcasm here)

They (EU) will cut corners when possible... i work for Europeans.... so any loop holes in these international agreements they will take. (no offense intended to our EU farm friends)

its all power and money.. the lawless epa is just another power tool. makes you wonder what the real, sinister, long term plan is...

and on a brighter note one of the country's largest county fairs (Elkhart county IN) is going on this week.. lots of smog polluting antique tractors running around..:)
 
It's a myth that Euro emission standards are stricter than EPA standards. The Euro standards were indeed stricter up until the mid 2000's I believe, but once the EPA really got on their high horse, the tables were turned. Look at engines that are built to meet both Euro and EPA standards. The EPA standard engines are far more strangled and choked up than the Euro engines. The horsepower difference is also incredible. If I'm not mistaken, the Volvo D16 engine is maximum 600 hp here. Australia, which uses Euro standards, that same engine runs around 700 hp.

I saw a chart with a side-by-side comparison of Euro vs. EPA emissions standards at each tier or stage. Quite informative. I'll see if I can find it again.
 
That 1971 Coke ad with the singers on the hillside is what WHO, the EPA, Hill ary Supporters etc are planning. Insert the original words please. The reality will be closer to "Judge Dread".
 
GEO: I would reply with facts but YT won't let me. Lets just say comrade, that you have the wrong ideas because of your dislike of diesel.

Rick
 
oldtanker,
Can anyone understand that my dislike for diesel comes form decades of headaches?

So put personal attacks will you, stop hating me and look at the driving forces at work. OK?

I dug deeper and found a common thread behind who is behind all the pollution standards. To my surprise it's the UN, yep United Nations. The WHO is a part of the UN. You want to see what is coming down the pipeline check it out. They, not me, are attacking diesels for two reasons, (PM)Particulate Matter and 41 toxic chemicals in the exhaust, 3 cause cancer. Farmers are in the cross hairs of the WHO.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOO it's not me you need to attack, research the WHO.
The World Health Organization (WHO) was created in 1948 by member states of the United Nations (UN) as a specialized agency with a broad mandate for health.

What the WHO recommends, many nations seem to follow in one form or another. May not be exactly the same standards, because climates are different. So yea, some differences in standards.

Wake up YT, I'm just the barrier of bad news. If the WHO gets it way, it will change the way you do business and the way things are done in many countries. So where are you going to move to then?

oldtanker, your homework is to publish on YT your findings on the WHO. You'll be surprised what you find.
geo
 
(quoted from post at 05:05:50 07/30/16) oldtanker,
Can anyone understand that my dislike for diesel comes form decades of headaches?

So put personal attacks will you, stop hating me and look at the driving forces at work. OK?

I dug deeper and found a common thread behind who is behind all the pollution standards. To my surprise it's the UN, yep United Nations. The WHO is a part of the UN. You want to see what is coming down the pipeline check it out. They, not me, are attacking diesels for two reasons, (PM)Particulate Matter and 41 toxic chemicals in the exhaust, 3 cause cancer. Farmers are in the cross hairs of the WHO.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOO it's not me you need to attack, research the WHO.
The World Health Organization (WHO) was created in 1948 by member states of the United Nations (UN) as a specialized agency with a broad mandate for health.

What the WHO recommends, many nations seem to follow in one form or another. May not be exactly the same standards, because climates are different. So yea, some differences in standards.

Wake up YT, I'm just the barrier of bad news. If the WHO gets it way, it will change the way you do business and the way things are done in many countries. So where are you going to move to then?

oldtanker, your homework is to publish on YT your findings on the WHO. You'll be surprised what you find.
geo
Click to expand...

No, they are attacking diesel because they want a one world order. They are perfectly willing to reduce the standards of living in developed nations to levels achievable by 3rd world nations. One of the ways they are trying to do this is by passing restrictive regulations that only affect developed nations moving jobs to 3rd world nations. If they were truly concerned about the world's emissions those regulations would be for the whole world!

As far as Europe's emission standards: I was assigned to Germany 3 times, 76-78, 83-87 and 91-93. While we could go to a German car dealership and buy a new car we could not ship that car back to the US because they were not compliant with our EPA or safety standards. And not all of Europe is developed. There are several countries that are borderline 3rd world including Spain and Italy while others are 3rd world. For what it's worth the couple of times I went to France I though it was one of the dirtiest "developed" nations I've ever seen.

I'm sorry you get headaches from diesel but if we did away with diesel just to keep you happy we would quickly become a 3rd world nation because prices would skyrocket and a massive recession would follow.

Also sorry to inform you that I don't take homework assignments. I stopped taking orders when I retired from the Army.

Rick
 
WHO is after more than diesel. Read up you
will see I'm right. The WHO could care less
about what you or anyone wants. They will do
what they think will make people live
longer.

Different countries may elect the have
different standards, like California's
srandards. Which they could require tier 5
before EPA does providing engines are at
that level in other countries.

Executive at Perkins diesel claim our teir
or tears levels are same as EU stages.

Does it really matter? Absolutely nothing we
can do. I plan to make a killing selling
vasoline with Teflon for those crying about
the pain inflicted by EPA. Want to place an
order?
 
(quoted from post at 13:28:16 07/30/16) Does it really matter? Absolutely nothing we
can do. I plan to make a killing selling
vasoline with Teflon for those crying about
the pain inflicted by EPA. Want to place an
order?
Click to expand...

The filters won't let me write what I think of you for that comment. It's obvious by your ignorance that you are not directly dealing with the products of the EPA's idiocy. As the owner of a GHG14 emissions level heavy truck, (2015 Western Star) I'm tired of footing the bill for people like you. The initial purchase cost of the truck was higher due to the emission equipment. The running cost of the truck is higher, due to the increased fuel consumption and addition of diesel exhaust fluid. The repair costs of the truck are higher, due to the much more frequent, and more technical nature, of the emissions equipment failures. Also, the downtime due to said emissions issues is a massive hit to a one truck owner operator.

So don't you @#%($% dare belittle the people trying to make a go of it while dealing with the emissions BS! I'm all for clean air and clean running iron, but not when it costs me my livelihood!
 
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