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Orlando mass shooting

dcarp

dcarp

Well-known Member
Location
Schulenburg Texas
It appears ISIS has attacked the US. 50 dead and 53 wounded in a attack inside an Orlando nightclub. What a horrific event, my prayers go out to all involved there.
 
Gay night club. Not known yet for sure if it was ISIS or anti gay nnalert. What they just said on the radio was that the guys father said he was extremely anti gay.
 
New material for the political candidates. Won't matter much in the long run. Saw statistics that by 2025, voting will be controlled by descendants of illegal immigrants who were born here enough years ago to be citizens. I won't be here that long, so I won't worry about it.
 
Bad deal, feel for all their families. Saw a headline from the HC campaign that initially blamed it on mental problems and access to weapons, the twitter post was withdrawn. Should be able to blame it on something other than the person who committed this horrible crime.
 
Same cowardly scenario, just not a school this time, a bar full of people, likely drinking and not expecting someone to ambush the place. Easy prey for a coward. Of course they'll try and blame the law abiding public.... again.

That type of place and lifestyle of those who patronize it, not something I particularly understand, and you know some would condone these actions because of it.

How is it people get in this country, they get all the government programs, then do something like this causing the rest of us to pay in one form or another, (gun control, ammo hoarding etc.) To this day I cannot go to a local store and get rim fire ammunition to deal with varmints or go plinking. These people are the direct cause of that.
 
The problem i have is that people start blaming the first available target. My biggest fear is that people will start attacking the first available target without finding out who did this and probably it was a person acting alone trying to get attention and a few minutes of fame
 
(quoted from post at 10:55:53 06/12/16) Same cowardly scenario, just not a school this time, a bar full of people, likely drinking and not expecting someone to ambush the place. Easy prey for a coward. Of course they'll try and blame the law abiding public.... again.

That type of place and lifestyle of those who patronize it, not something I particularly understand, and you know some would condone these actions because of it.

How is it people get in this country, they get all the government programs, then do something like this causing the rest of us to pay in one form or another, (gun control, ammo hoarding etc.) To this day I cannot go to a local store and get rim fire ammunition to deal with varmints or go plinking. These people are the direct cause of that.
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Good post, Billy. I agree.
 
Billy- "How is it people get in this country..."

He was born in New York, he is an American citizen.
 
(quoted from post at 13:43:59 06/12/16)
Religion of Peace.
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Radical nnalert Terrorist.

I wonder what the propaganda will be.

I am going to bet everything I own that we are to blame because of guns.
 
Shooter is an Islamist and a nnalert so those two facts should tone down some of the lies but the abundant media is already blaming guns and nnalert, guess none of them can put 2&2 together.
 
Bingo, Don.

No doubt we will soon be hearing that it was because of guns, Second Amendment rights, lack of gun laws, Bush, nnalert, etc., etc., etc.

Of course, it couldn't possibly be nnalert terrorism.

Dean
 
This reality, of course, begs the obvious questions: 1.) Why were/are his parents here, and; 2.)Why has the US not repealed the insanity that is anchor babies?

Dean
 
When is it that a gun has ever jumped up and shot a person. Gun laws are just flat out stupid since those who do thing like this 90% of the time did not get there guns in a legal way and NO law will stop this type of thing. Sad how those who want to take our guns do not understand guns do not kill people people kill people the gun is just a tool that they used
 
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a229335.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 13:19:25 06/12/16) When is it that a gun has ever jumped up and shot a person. Gun laws are just flat out stupid since those who do thing like this 90% of the time did not get there guns in a legal way and NO law will stop this type of thing. Sad how those who want to take our guns do not understand guns do not kill people people kill people the gun is just a tool that they used
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To add-It's not a gun problem,it's a people problem!
 
Here we go again news people jumping at answers and everyone is believing them wait a few days then the real truth will come out. Like wheres my money for the riots in Balt news just never quite got around to covering that
 
Maybe,but there was a two hour special report from noon to 2. They said ISIS was applauding it,but hadn't claimed credit for it.
 
I am 100% in favor of gun control. Gun control to me means hitting what you aim at. I heard a number of years ago when congress was wrestling with some sort of gun bans, that some one like Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, Chuck Shummer or Ms. Clinton, made the remark that. " Perhaps we need some high profile shootings to get something done" I don't remember who it was, but some one of that abundant character. Look at Australia and England, it doesn't work, only the criminal have weapons.

Fred
 
There is a difference between ISIS planned and ISIS inspired. Logistically, the home-grown ISIS inspired jihadist is much more difficult for law enforcement and Government agencies to track.
As far as the homophobic part of this horrific crime, that is an attitude that is embedded in most all of us. Personally, I strive to believe that there is no place for hate in any religion. To do otherwise only vilifies your religion.
 
Ya and what is really sad is those who want to ban are guns are the ones who run this country and they are suppose to have very good high $$ education but there to stupid to understand a gun does not kill it is the person that pick it up. If they got smart enough to understand that they would stop all this gun control bull and give use Constitutional carry
 
Thinking about this it reminds me of a saying history always repeats itself. How many times in the past has an issue been raised and people are taught to fear than hate and what comes after that . Probably the worst example can be Germany in the 30 ' s where hate was allowed and using that people used that to gain power and all the consequences after that.
I'm not a good speaker but I have friends that are nnalert there good hard working group granted there's as always a few that bend the rules and be honest I'm concerned about there safety. This is a tragedy and my hopes and prayers are with everyone . But I sure would hope that not everyone gets blamed for such a terrible act. It sad to see news media feast on this tragedy .
 
Sad but haters will always find a way to spread their hate. A gun, a knife, a club, a rock or a car. Had 1 or 2 of those victems been armed themselves he might have been stopped. The gun control nuts will come out of the woodwork ignoring the obvious truth. A good guy with a gun CAN stop a bad guy with a gun.
 
I'm with you 100% on this one. It took three hours for the SWAT team to make their way in to a hostage situation. If there's a take away from this,it's this. We're at war with an enemy from within. We need to be vigilant,but as a part of that vigilance,we need more armed citizens with the ability to fight back. Who knows what happened in those three hours that could have been prevented.
If you want to ponder "what ifs",what if 10% of the people in that room had been armed?
 
I just told my wife I can't believe someone wasn't caring and able to fight back. She said "Because everyone thinks like me and figures someone else would have a gun and have the ability to fight back". Although they were serving acohol so I suppose you couldn't carry legally in their anyway. Maybe its time to revisit getting a carry permit. I have a good friend that carries and I know feel more comfortable when I'm with him.
 
You are correct In this I believe too. People tend to stereotype and lump all "similar" things into their predetermined categories. It makes no sense to lump all nnalert into the same category as the extremists any more than it makes sense to lump all gun owners into the same category of these wackos or other murderers. People naturally want to do this because it is easier than judging each instance by its own merits.
Do we have a radical nnalert problem in the world? Yes! Just as we had an anarchist problem which started WWI. Somewhere it says "there is nothing new under the sun" and this really applies to people and personalities. Somewhere out there is another potential Hitler, Stalin, Ghandi, Jefferson, etc.
 
I think that's the point that this incident gets us to. We either have a larger number of armed citizens,or we have a communist style military presence in every public place. Those are the only two options,unless somebody has a better idea.
 
OK,I'd like to say "good to know",but it actually would have been a bigger comfort to know it was some anti gay nut job.
This brings the war home in the most glaring way since 9/11.
 
dcarp= There was an armed 'off-duty' cop in the Pulse nightclub. He exchanged gunfire with the perp outside the building and the perp ran into the club and started shooting.

So,,,,YES, there was an armed and trained individual on the premises.
 
2:02 a.m.

A uniformed Orlando police officer working at the club off-duty first heard gunshots. Omar Mateen was outside with an AR-15, a handgun and an explosive device.

The officer fired at him, police said. Two more officers showed up and opened fire.

Mateen fired back, and walked back into Pulse, trapping dozens of people inside.
Poke here
 
Actually there were people that have weapons yet most don't want to fight back. One I pass on especially to women is hair spray anybody gets a good shot of that in the eyes will get slowed up real quick. You also look at 9 11 and the group that took the plane down even at the cost of there own lives or even more recently on the train in Europe. It's unfortunate in instance such as this nobody wants to fight back. I wouldn't mind having some one that was trained in the use of firearms but my biggest concern would be someone that wasn't trained and maybe would do more damage. In a case like this if there was a police sniper available I would be scared to show a weapon you would wonder how the cops could sort the situation out with both sides armed
 
I wonder if people were armed and they started shooting at anybody that had a gun how could you tell who was the real shooter? In a way I would be for that idea but how can you sort out who's shooting who.
 
With respect to the departed the reality is that nnalert are increasing in numbers, gaining strength and are here to stay and have ulterior motives , for of you who think they are just another peace loving religion study what it says about infidels, your choice according to them is to either convert or die, no person who believes in the Koran can be considered innocent as long as they subscribe to it's doctrine, when anyone says anything about gays it is always made into a hate issue, as a believer in Christ I do not approve of their lifestyle, this does not mean that I hate the person, our media has a abundant agenda and are trying to steer America away from God, listen to the radio, read the paper and watch tv with an open mind
 
(quoted from post at 11:45:04 06/12/16) ....................................... Should be able to blame it on something other than the person who committed this horrible crime.
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You're kidding, right?
 
rrlund- This perp had a AR-15, kinda like the same one the cops use.

BTW, I'm very PRO-gun. We're just discussing talking points here.
 
(quoted from post at 02:28:10 06/13/16)
(quoted from post at 11:45:04 06/12/16) ....................................... Should be able to blame it on something other than the person who committed this horrible crime.
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You're kidding, right?
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Yeah, I was kidding
 
When you have a segment of population that is neither afraid of prison(imagine that with our plush prisons) and/or not afraid of dying, then you have big problem with no politically correct solutions. If one could wave the majic "link_disallowed wand" and make ALL guns disappear they would just go back to all suicide bombs. Try outlawing them Mr. Osama. How many will have to die before they will get it through their freeking heads. Liberals = death
 
So, everybody can rush to judgment without knowing all of the facts or circumstances. All that we REALLY know is what has been "spoon fed" to us by a slanted media.

One thing is certain: those people did not deserve to be attacked, and did not deserve to die. My sincerest condolences to the dead, the injured, and the families affected.

I will put my faith in the FBI to investigate and report on this. Whether we like it or not, we may never get the full and accurate accounting of what happened there. Always keep in mind that the mainstream news media HAS AN AGENDA!!! News reporting is not about being factual and objective - it is about Nielsen ratings, viewership, and profitability.

Bear in mind that this will be the foundation for the abundant left demanding more and stricter gun laws. BUT, know this: the perpetrators of mass shootings violated existing gun laws to commit their heinous acts to start with. Also, know that the cities and states with the strictest gun laws also have the most gun crime. Proof that gun laws do not work. They only disarm legitimate and law abiding citizens.
 
Guess what? The "hater" was the guy shooting people because he did not like their lifestyle, I would wager that all of the dead and wounded shared your foolish and naive view of nnalert right up until the minute they took a bullet for those beliefs.
 
jimg.allentown- " BUT, know this: the perpetrators of mass shootings violated existing gun laws to commit their heinous acts to start with.".

The perp LEGALLY bought the guns last week. How did he violate any dun laws?


"Law enforcement sources told ABC News that he had a .223 caliber AR-type rifle and a Glock handgun on him at the time of the shooting early this morning, which the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives says he bought legally." ...abc
Poke here
 
If their local police is anything like our local and county most of them can't hit the broad side of a barn.
 
WOW, an interesting read.

In a situation, a crowd, some noise, a darkened club and an active shooter. Armed with an AR 15 and a pistol. And some super person is supposed to take this gun down amid the confusion and panic? When their training amounts to punching holes in paper at the local range?

As far as the 3 hour standoff. It's normal in a situation like that for law enforcement to try to negotiate for the release of the hostages and to get the perp to surrender unless the perp is actively killing the hostages. They have to meet certain criteria before they send in SWAT or else they get sued. Plus before they go in they try to gather as much info to know where is the best point to enter and the actual location of the bad guy. Anyone who rushes into a situation like that with no tactical knowledge is either going to kill innocent people or get some of their own killed.

Rick
 
There is actually a pro gun group for them called the "Pink Pistols".

I don't necessarily agree with the lifestyle choice, but as long as they don't push their agenda on me, they have just as many rights as any of the rest of us.
 
Shoot most any thing in a spray can is a weapon if you spray some one in there eyes. A shoot of whiskey on the face will slow a person down fast as will you hitting a person in the nose. You hit a person in the nose and there blind for about 30 seconds due to the fact there eyes tear up. I could go onan on as to what and how thing can be used as weapons but then I might be opening up to much to what I have learned that I was not suppose to have
 
Amen. I hear people all the time taking about letting the police handle things because they are 'trained' to do so.

I know several, and I'll admit they do get some training, but unless that training is put to use they tend to forget. With them it's usually train, and qualify on their shooting once a year. Yes, out in the country there are plenty of them that actually hunt, and shoot off duty, but the majority shoot once a year, and that's it.

That said, I'm no 'Rambo' by any stretch of the imagination, but me and my wife and 13 year old daughter shoot as often as possible (meaning when money permits buying enough ammo) at ranges out to 200 yards, or more. I imagine any one of us could easily take down someone like the gunman at close range...........if for no other reason than because he's not expecting anyone to shoot back.......
 
What is truly sad is how hypocritical those very politicians are. Personally I hate a hypocrite almost as much as I do a liar....Wait, we're talking politicians here, so they are usually one in the same aren't they?

Seriously, THEY are so much more important than us that they deserve to be surrounded by armed guards, but us peons aren't supposed to have the right to even protect ourselves.

Thing is they know if they disarm us, they will have less to fear from us......because they have armed guards.

As Thomas Jefferson stated, ?When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.?

They are getting scared, and they ought to be, because from what I have seen, people are getting fed up......
 
Read my reply to another post below. The jist of it is, when it comes to LE, most in the city have far less practice time with their weapons than the average gun owner.

Too, the gunman has rarely had any more training than the 'super person' you mention.

Granted with LE there are the special teams that practice a lot more than th average beat cop, but even with them, basically all they do is punch holes and target shoot in a more 'tactical' environment.....Something even the average gun owner can do if they so desire.

That part of the equation aside, which would you rather do, be in a situation where someone was shooting at you and your family, and you knew for a fact no one in the place was armed but the gunman.........and as long as he didn't run out of bullets first, you, and your family were going to die???????????????????? Or would you rather be in the place with someone like myself who shoots regularly, who carries everywhere I can legally do so, and wouldn't think twice about drawing my weapon in defense of myself or others if the need arose ?????????????

In other words, which do you prefer, KNOWING YOU HAD ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE AT LIVING, or knowing you had even the slightest chance that you and your family will live because even one person was armed??????????

Unfortunately most folks can't even begin to mentally put themselves into a situation like this, thus when, and if, it happens in reality, they are lost.......
 
NCWayne- "That part of the equation aside, which would you rather do, be in a situation where someone was shooting at you and your family, and you knew for a fact no one in the place was armed but the gunman.........and as long as he didn't run out of bullets first, you, and your family were going to die???????????????????? Or would you rather be in the place with someone like myself who shoots regularly, who carries everywhere I can legally do so, and wouldn't think twice about drawing my weapon in defense of myself or others if the need arose ?????????????"...

NCWAYNE, have you ever been in a 'live fire' situation? (where someone is actually try to shoot to kill you?

I understand what you say...but I 'm just curious????

Thanks
 
Nope.
The perp targeted those people because of their way of life and because he knew they were less likely to fight back than a bunch of cowboys. But to you, mentioning that is hate speech. It is your mind of thinking that got us here.
 
Greg, you need to study what nnalert teaches. It says that everyone either convert to nnalert or die. Anyone that is nnalert is wrong to support a form of government that says convert or die. I said form of government because that is what nnalert is. it isn't a religion it's a form of government
 
Was not put there as hate speech, it was place there for that part of society that think we should be unarmed sheep.
 
jimg.allentown --- so you are one of the self appointed super heroes protecting the rest of us from so called "hate" speech? Do you comprehend the first amendment? Lord help us when it appears that the majority of citizens and voters are not just willing, but eager to give up the rights and freedoms that so many stalwart Americans have died for.
 
I've read that line from the Koran for about 20 years. It became very popular in the newspaper editorials after the first world Trade Center bombings. I'm not claiming that it is a religion of peace, ever stop to wonder why so many convicts convert to nnalert while behind bars? Is it because it gives them hope, inner peace, or a justification to be like they are? I don't know the answer to that one but I would bet the answers are varied.
As far as a religion as a form of government, have you ever heard of the Holy Roman empire? If you are a christain, then that is in your religious lineage too. Not saying it is right or wrong, just pointing out facts. These are some reasons why our Constitution bans the government from sponsoring a religion, like they had in England.
 
(quoted from post at 22:13:53 06/12/16) Read my reply to another post below. The jist of it is, when it comes to LE, most in the city have far less practice time with their weapons than the average gun owner.

Too, the gunman has rarely had any more training than the 'super person' you mention.

Granted with LE there are the special teams that practice a lot more than th average beat cop, but even with them, basically all they do is punch holes and target shoot in a more 'tactical' environment.....Something even the average gun owner can do if they so desire.

That part of the equation aside, which would you rather do, be in a situation where someone was shooting at you and your family, and you knew for a fact no one in the place was armed but the gunman.........and as long as he didn't run out of bullets first, you, and your family were going to die???????????????????? Or would you rather be in the place with someone like myself who shoots regularly, who carries everywhere I can legally do so, and wouldn't think twice about drawing my weapon in defense of myself or others if the need arose ?????????????

In other words, which do you prefer, KNOWING YOU HAD ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE AT LIVING, or knowing you had even the slightest chance that you and your family will live because even one person was armed??????????

Unfortunately most folks can't even begin to mentally put themselves into a situation like this, thus when, and if, it happens in reality, they are lost.......
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Wayne, it's not weather you want to be in that situation or not. There are a lot of factors involved in that. The biggest being stress. The military has started doing stress shooting. Exercise, getting your pulse up to about 120 then immediately pick up a weapon and engage targets. I suggest you try it sometime. It explains why a lot of cops fire a lot of rounds in a gun fight and don't hit anything. Now take your little pistol, into a darkened club environment, with a panic stricken crowd, with an active shooter firing a weapon with 10 times the accurate range of your weapon without knowing exactly what's going on. Yea sure if you are about to be a victim try your best. But if you have a means to get out then that's the best way to handle it. That's what I'm saying. Every time something like this happens people who have never heard a shot fired in anger claim that they could have taken the bad guy down with their carry gun. Holmes was a prime example. He tossed homemade smoke devices into a darken theater and then started shooting while wearing body armor and headgear. An ole Joe was going to take him out with one shot from his 25ACP. Again, if you or your family are about to be the next victims do your best, but if you can get your family out without drawing attention of the shooter then get the heck out!

Rick
 
No, the closest I have ever come was to have a pistol pulled on me. My response was to draw mine, albeit a bit faster than the other guy, and tell him I would drop him where he stood if he continued with his present course of action. Thankfully the situation didn't escalate beyond that.

That being said the point I would assume your trying to make is mute. I say that because the majority of the officers everyone expects to 'save' them (especially in urban areas) have never been shot at before either.

That being the case, they do the same kinds of things I do. By that I mean I follow the same way of thinking put to us in the Navy. Train like you fight. In other words, put yourself into different situations both mentally and physically, and practice, practice, practice.

On that note, I would love to be able to practice more than I currently do. Unfortunately the panic buys created by the politicians, the import restrictions on surplus ammo, etc, etc, all make ammo a lot more expensive than it used to be. Common calibers like 5.56x45/.223 for the AR's, and 7.62x39 for the AK47, and 5.45x39 for the AK74 used to be readily available surplus, and priced less than $100 per 1000 rounds.....and we all know what's happened with .22........For many other of the 'hunting' calibers such as .303 British, 30/06, .30.30, etc, etc, your typically talking around a buck a round or more. Get into the pistol cartridges and it's not all that much better. Your still talking about 20 cents a round, or more for the common ones like .380, 9mm, .38 special,.357 magnum, .40, .45, etc etc.

Regardless, pistol or rifle, this gets expensive in a hurry. I know last time me, my wife, and our daughter went to the range, the round count for the day, through the long guns alone, was over 700 rounds. Thing is that was a slow day because we were all shooting at the longer ranges and going for accuracy -vs- just 'shooting for fun'. Even so, when your 13 year old daughter is going ping, ping, ping, ping, ping on a 10" steel plate, at 200 yards, as fast as she can pull the trigger, the ammo goes pretty fast. When your wife is doing some nice groups on the targets at 20 yards or so with a pistol, the same thing holds true.

Besides the cost of ammo needed to train more, places to shoot have become few and far between for many too. True, you can go to a range and 'punch holes' from a standing position behind a little bench, but it costs the heck out of you because of all the EPA guidelines, liability insurance costs, etc, etc, etc. In those types of places there's no practicing drawing and firing, or doing anything else that might become necessary in a real life situation outside the range.

Thankfully I have a few acres and a 70 yard range that's good enough to do what I want. When I feel the need to stretch my legs a bit, a group of us get together a few times a year and hit some of the not so local ranges that have anywhere from 200 to 400 yards.

Like I said before, I'm no Rambo by any stretch of the imagination, but I know from what I've seen, and been told by members of various police/sheriff's departments that most of those guys are lucky to shoot once a year to just to maintain their qualifications. Guess what, it's done at a range, doing nothing but punching holes in paper..............

So, who would you tend to trust more. The local cops, the average, or above average gun owner.............or no one at all???????
 
(quoted from post at 10:15:48 06/13/16)
(quoted from post at 22:13:53 06/12/16) Read my reply to another post below. The jist of it is, when it comes to LE, most in the city have far less practice time with their weapons than the average gun owner.

Too, the gunman has rarely had any more training than the 'super person' you mention.

Granted with LE there are the special teams that practice a lot more than th average beat cop, but even with them, basically all they do is punch holes and target shoot in a more 'tactical' environment.....Something even the average gun owner can do if they so desire.

That part of the equation aside, which would you rather do, be in a situation where someone was shooting at you and your family, and you knew for a fact no one in the place was armed but the gunman.........and as long as he didn't run out of bullets first, you, and your family were going to die???????????????????? Or would you rather be in the place with someone like myself who shoots regularly, who carries everywhere I can legally do so, and wouldn't think twice about drawing my weapon in defense of myself or others if the need arose ?????????????

In other words, which do you prefer, KNOWING YOU HAD ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE AT LIVING, or knowing you had even the slightest chance that you and your family will live because even one person was armed??????????

Unfortunately most folks can't even begin to mentally put themselves into a situation like this, thus when, and if, it happens in reality, they are lost.......
Click to expand...

Wayne, it's not weather you want to be in that situation or not. There are a lot of factors involved in that. The biggest being stress. The military has started doing stress shooting. Exercise, getting your pulse up to about 120 then immediately pick up a weapon and engage targets. I suggest you try it sometime. It explains why a lot of cops fire a lot of rounds in a gun fight and don't hit anything. Now take your little pistol, into a darkened club environment, with a panic stricken crowd, with an active shooter firing a weapon with 10 times the accurate range of your weapon without knowing exactly what's going on. Yea sure if you are about to be a victim try your best. But if you have a means to get out then that's the best way to handle it. That's what I'm saying. Every time something like this happens people who have never heard a shot fired in anger claim that they could have taken the bad guy down with their carry gun. Holmes was a prime example. He tossed homemade smoke devices into a darken theater and then started shooting while wearing body armor and headgear. An ole Joe was going to take him out with one shot from his 25ACP. Again, if you or your family are about to be the next victims do your best, but if you can get your family out without drawing attention of the shooter then get the heck out!

Rick
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Rick, the thing is that people HAVE stopped what would have become mass shootings. Every day, ordinary people. It happens, but it doesn't get much news coverage. I don't think everyone needs to go armed 24/7 but lets not pretend that disarming the population is going to improve our chances.
 
Read my comments below in regard to a little bit of what I do to train myself and my family.

That said, I agree, IF there is a way out, by all means take it. At the same time, you can't be afraid to use your weapon to protect yourself. The problem is a lot of people don't have the mental ability to think ahead to situations like that, and expect the unthinkable to happen. When it does, panic is all that they know. I have never actually been shot at (well, I have if accidentally counts) but I know just having someone draw on you, and being put in the position of knowing the situation can easily come down to you or them, puts things in a whole different perspective....at least it did for me.....

That aside, think about it this way. All it takes is one trained person with their own firearm to take down another. True, the other guy might be wearing body armor, etc, but that's where being able to keep your head, and insure your shot placement is accurate comes into play. Even then, the idea is to simply 'stop the threat', not necessarily go for a head shot and kill the guy.

That said, most people have as much of a misconception about body armor as they it as they do 'silencers'. By that I mean just because the bullet doesn't penetrate the vest doesn't mean the person doesn't feel the shot. In other words three or four shots, center mass, in quick succession, from say a 9mm, which routinely have in excess of 300 ftlbs or energy, might not kill them, but it would definitely knock them around and at least give someone the chance to restrain them. A lucky/missed shot, or a well placed shot to the arm, leg, or other non-vital, yet exposed area would also tend to have the desired effect.

Ultimately, the way I look at things it comes down to this. There was an Arthur back in the '40's I believe, named Robert A Heinlein who said, ?An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.? In other words, guys like this shooter, and others, have all purposefully chosen 'gun free' zones for their actions because they know there won't be any resistance.

When there is the possibility that they will be faced with a dozen guns being drawn in their face the second they pull theirs....they will be more likely to think twice before acting...... When out politicians go out of their way to insure THEY are the only ones protected and the rest of us are forced to be unarmed, in order not to become criminals ourselves, the criminals will still find arms, and we will not have the safe and harmonious utopia they say they crave. Just look at places like England where terrorist acts are far more common....and they are pushing for restrictions on even BB guns, and inactive wall hangers, to see the future if people like 'some of our current candidates' had their way.

I love it, you can't even type in 'her' name on here...it just comes up as 'link disallowed' when there was no link attached, just a name.......
 
I don't know about Florida, bit it is here in NC....as long as you don't drink. Given that I don't drink, mine goes with me everywhere.....

That being said, legal or not for honest folks, the guy doing the shooting didn't seem to care did he?
 
(quoted from post at 06:34:08 06/13/16)
(quoted from post at 10:15:48 06/13/16)
(quoted from post at 22:13:53 06/12/16) Read my reply to another post below. The jist of it is, when it comes to LE, most in the city have far less practice time with their weapons than the average gun owner.

Too, the gunman has rarely had any more training than the 'super person' you mention.

Granted with LE there are the special teams that practice a lot more than th average beat cop, but even with them, basically all they do is punch holes and target shoot in a more 'tactical' environment.....Something even the average gun owner can do if they so desire.

That part of the equation aside, which would you rather do, be in a situation where someone was shooting at you and your family, and you knew for a fact no one in the place was armed but the gunman.........and as long as he didn't run out of bullets first, you, and your family were going to die???????????????????? Or would you rather be in the place with someone like myself who shoots regularly, who carries everywhere I can legally do so, and wouldn't think twice about drawing my weapon in defense of myself or others if the need arose ?????????????

In other words, which do you prefer, KNOWING YOU HAD ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE AT LIVING, or knowing you had even the slightest chance that you and your family will live because even one person was armed??????????

Unfortunately most folks can't even begin to mentally put themselves into a situation like this, thus when, and if, it happens in reality, they are lost.......
Click to expand...

Wayne, it's not weather you want to be in that situation or not. There are a lot of factors involved in that. The biggest being stress. The military has started doing stress shooting. Exercise, getting your pulse up to about 120 then immediately pick up a weapon and engage targets. I suggest you try it sometime. It explains why a lot of cops fire a lot of rounds in a gun fight and don't hit anything. Now take your little pistol, into a darkened club environment, with a panic stricken crowd, with an active shooter firing a weapon with 10 times the accurate range of your weapon without knowing exactly what's going on. Yea sure if you are about to be a victim try your best. But if you have a means to get out then that's the best way to handle it. That's what I'm saying. Every time something like this happens people who have never heard a shot fired in anger claim that they could have taken the bad guy down with their carry gun. Holmes was a prime example. He tossed homemade smoke devices into a darken theater and then started shooting while wearing body armor and headgear. An ole Joe was going to take him out with one shot from his 25ACP. Again, if you or your family are about to be the next victims do your best, but if you can get your family out without drawing attention of the shooter then get the heck out!

Rick
Click to expand...

Rick, the thing is that people HAVE stopped what would have become mass shootings. Every day, ordinary people. It happens, but it doesn't get much news coverage. I don't think everyone needs to go armed 24/7 but lets not pretend that disarming the population is going to improve our chances.
Click to expand...

Oh I know it happens. But that most often with robbers in a store environment or at home and most often with the bad guy not having fired a shot before they are confronted by an armed citizen. I have yet to hear of a mass shooter being stopped by the average joe citizen. And I live in an area with a lot of gun owners. Most only shoot enough to confirm the zero of their deer gun once a year. I did mention that these guys had RIFLES with a lot more range and power than the average guy with a permit is carrying when these shooting occur. In the Holmes and this case a dark, crowded enclosed building with patrons running around in a panic creating a difficult situation for any shooter at best. All I'm saying is at that point in time, if you can get out with family and or friends that is the best course of action. The odds of being able to take someone like that out would mean that you would most likely become just another victim. That isn't the time to start thinking you are super bad guy dropper.

Wayne, yea I was in the Army and we practiced training like we would fight too. Well never once did I train under fire. So that was a farce to start with. But we also trained to insure we had the advantage before going on the attack. We also trained to access the tactical situation before acting. We also trained that when ambushed to lay down a field of fire while accessing the situation, making a quick plan and making a counter attack. We also trained that upon receiving fire to immediately return fire. Not accurate fire but shooting to make the enemy duck so that we could fine a covered concealed position to "develop" the situation. And yea, I know what I'm talking about, I spent 4 years teaching tactics to young officers. But those are hardly things you want to do in a civilian setting. It's not a war zone. You don't want to be telling that pesky news reporter "yep, got the bad guy and only shot 6 innocent people in the process"! Or worse saying that from a hospital bed with the modification of "I tried to get".

Rick
 
Not a "self appointed super hero" as you say.

My comment was meant to say that what I read seemed to me to be criticizing the lifestyle of the victims. The poster implied that the shootings were the result of their unconventional lifestyle. Sort of like blaming the woman that gets raped for encouraging it.

I neither approve nor disapprove of that lifestyle. To each their own. BUT, I do NOT use slurs whether they are regarding race, creed, or gender orientation. A person is a person. Not my place to judge them. However, I also do not like to see undeserved prejudice aimed at victims either.

Don't read more into my post than what is there.
 
I agree and if the wrong person gets in the White house there maybe civil war if that person does what they said they are going to do as far as our guns. Not naming names but I bet you know which one I am talking about
 
I read in your post exactly what you said, you called another poster out for so called "hate" speech when he did nothing of the kind, but, the point is, what power granted you or I or anyone else the right to decide what constitutes "hate" speech. The sole purpose of labeling certain speech as "hate" speech is a malicious left wing coup to silence anyone that does not parrot the approved party line, the so called elites know they can count on the weak minded sheep to blindly follow every dictum they issue right down to the ruination of the country.
 
Exactly. If anyone thinks something like another gun law would have stopped a guy that decided to kill a bunch of people they are fooling themselves. France has some of the same restrictive gun laws many would love to see in the US, but a some illegal immigrants obtained real assault weapons and killed several people there - who did those gun laws save?


Mexico has extremely restrictive gun laws - doesn't seem to be doing them any good.
 
I have yet to figure out if who think a ban, or another law is going to do anything, have even a grain of brain matter in their head.

Seriously, there are already so many different firearm laws now it's staggering. The funny thing is we could get rid of 99% of them, enforce the other 1%, and things would be better than they are now. As it is they don't even enforce most of the ones already on the books, yet want more, and more that they won't be able to enforce either.

heck, look at the registration schemes in several of the Northern states. I believe the rate of compliance with the new laws has never risen above a few percent. Why, because people are fed up, and any law that goes against the Constitution is already illegal at it's root, whether a court says it is or not. Those sitting on a court, that would say otherwise, need to be replaced also.

Thankfully people are seeing the light and have stopped listening so hard to the rhetoric being preached at them by the anti-gunners. It's bad to say it this way, but Thankfully the shooter in this instance was a registered nnalert and a non-white 'terrorist' as opposed to yet another nnalert registered, 'crazy white man'...which the media just eats up.
 
Im a member on another site that is gun related as opposed to tractors. The site is a lot more open to discussion than this one is when it comes to politics, etc.

That being said, many of those guys have arsenals at home that would make most police departments look like a kindergarten play room. Many of them, myself included, are just about fed up.

Personally I don't think we are to the point yet where the ballot box can't fix things, as the politicians are still doing what they are told to do. The problem is they are doing what the 'majority that show up' want, as opposed to what the true majority actually want.

I think if there has ever been an election where the true majority will turn out, it will be this one. If it goes the other way, and they try to accomplish what they say they want to, all I can say is, to quote Charlton Heston, "From my cold, dead hands".... MOLON LABE
 
What he stated wasn't criticizing at all, it was factual. In fact my wife has several guy she works with, of that persuasion, and they are all 'girly men' to one degree or another.

Granted there are some that are more 'manly' than others, but for the most part, the ones you typically see, and hear about the most, are effeminate, which basically means,'girly'.

Beyond that, the term 'hate speech' is hateful in and of itself. I say that because everyone has a right to speak their mind, whether someone else likes it or not. You'll not hear anyone crying about all of the hate filled rhetoric spewed in the direction of gun owners, etc, etc, from the other side, but let someone on this side say anything even remotely 'wrong' in their eyes, and you'd think the gates had opened up down below and come to earth....

Everyone has become so adept at being offended, it's sickening. It's to the point their being offended, by me being me, offends me. LOL

Ultimately this is one reason why a certain candidate is so popular, because people have gotten tired of being PC and he's far from it. It's time once again to call things like they are, garbage men are garbage men, not sanitary technicians, etc, etc. I know that example is a bit off topic, but you get the idea, as best I can state it, within the rules of this forum.
 
I absolutely hate it when "they" say we should not have weapons similar to the military. The intent of the 2nd is not to make sure we can go hunt rabbits if we want, it is there to insure the public can protect itself and this country. When all there was was swords, they had swords and so did we. Flint locks, cap and ball now modern rifles. 5 will get you 10 that was a gun free zone. I bet you never see this happen in a gun store.
 
The gun control people have sense enough to know laws are not going to prevent an incident like this from happening. They have their own agenda which has nothing to do with a persons safety, we are just kept out of the loop what that agenda might be. I believe I know what that agenda might be and I can't say that I blame them for trying.
 
With no training and an unfamiliar rifle Omar Mateen shot it out with several officers and eventually an entire SWAT team before finally losing - maybe the "average person" that's spent some time at a gun range wouldn't do so bad.
 
(quoted from post at 12:32:15 06/13/16) With no training and an unfamiliar rifle Omar Mateen shot it out with several officers and eventually an entire SWAT team before finally losing - maybe the "average person" that's spent some time at a gun range wouldn't do so bad.
Click to expand...

He was a security guard with a permit. Yea, he had some training. Both things have been covered in the news.

Rick
 
Well, I thought that the whole "girlie men" thing and the purse comment was a criticism of their life choices, and as such came across as a slur. After all, in this day and time, we dare not use derogatory labels on anybody that is not of the WASP persuasion.
And, just do you know, I am in no way a "leftie" so to speak. I lean much more to the right. Also. I do not resort to name calling when I am on the losing side of a discussion. I much more favor the right wing side of things. I believe that when a person earns money, they should not have it taken from them by force of law to give to those who CHOOSE not to earn their own. I also believe in personal responsibility and owning one's own mistakes.
At the same time, I think it is high time that we quit offending the majority because one spoiler is offended otherwise. Example: in a group of 50 people, one is an atheist. So, to avoid offending that ONE, we must offend the other 49 to save the ONE's feelings. Time to put the brakes on that one.

So, after all of this, I hope we can still be friends, and agree or disagree respectfully of each other.
 
That still proves my point. There is no number of gun laws that is going to account for every nut job with a chip on his shoulder.

Also, disarming the citizens only makes them sitting ducks.

A classic case was some years ago, a guy went nuts on the Long Island Railroad commuter train and shot up a bunch of people. Since New York has very restrictive gun paws, there was probably nobody on that train with a firearm that could have stopped the guy. So, the restrictive gun laws made everybody on that train sitting ducks. No place to hide, no place to run.
 
Oh I know it happens. But that most often with robbers in a store environment or at home and most often with the bad guy not having fired a shot before they are confronted by an armed citizen. I have yet to hear of a mass shooter being stopped by the average joe citizen.
Rick
Click to expand...

There is a good reason why you never hear of a mass shooter being stopped by a person with a gun. Most, if not all, have happened in gun free zones. They know that their odds of inflicting the most carnage is greater before the law enforcement arrives.

I agree that the best thing is to try to escape but you never know when the back exit may be blocked or occupied with another terrorist.
 
He had bought the .223 a couple weeks earlier - how much "training" did he get? His "security guard" gig was at a retirement village. Agreed - well covered by the news.
 
Agreed. It is illegal for a CCW holder to carry a weapon into a business that makes a majority of its business from alcohol sales. Once again the law abiding are held in containment for the law breaker.
 
On some forums your comment would have been taken more as a 'joke', or as something being said facetiously, than at face value.

On here, just the way the rules are, and the way 'the game is played' sometimes, it's often hard to tell.

In the end, regardless, it's all good. Funny thing many on the Right can agree to disagree, to live, and let live, and it stops there.

On the other side, it's often more of agree with me, or else, and I'll live my life, but if you don't agree with it, or I don't agree with yours, your wrong and have to do it my way or else I'll call you names and do everything I can to make you see that my way is the only way.
 
When the 2nd amendment was written most people had BETTER weapons than the typical soldier. The standard muskets of the day (Brown Bess and Charleville musket) were horribly inaccurate and their main usage was in volley fire - as in enough soldiers fired at once for a shotgun effect. When the army was "done" with them the weapons themselves were usually considered junk, what few where sold as weapons were usually cut down into shotguns.
 
(quoted from post at 14:53:12 06/13/16)
Oh I know it happens. But that most often with robbers in a store environment or at home and most often with the bad guy not having fired a shot before they are confronted by an armed citizen. I have yet to hear of a mass shooter being stopped by the average joe citizen.
Rick
Click to expand...

There is a good reason why you never hear of a mass shooter being stopped by a person with a gun. Most, if not all, have happened in gun free zones. They know that their odds of inflicting the most carnage is greater before the law enforcement arrives.

I agree that the best thing is to try to escape but you never know when the back exit may be blocked or occupied with another terrorist.
Click to expand...

While that may be true one of the worst mass killing in US history took place back when you could buy a machine gun over the counter. Sad part is that no gun was used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster. Then you have McVeigh. With people like that running around there is no security. Only the false sense of it. To the anti gun nuts a gun free society grants that false sense of security. The sad part is that these people don't understand that a large portion of gun killings are done with guns illegally obtained in the first place by people who are barred from possessing a gun.

But I maintain that had there been an armed person on that train what makes you think they wouldn't have been the first one shot? Or that once bullets started flying that they would have done anything. Most of the people on here who have never heard a shot fired in anger can only claim what they would like to do in that situation, not what would happen. They could wind up being a hero or a zero, cowering on the floor begging for their life. The simple facts are that charging into a building where you don't know what the tactical situation is when it's dim at best, with screaming people who are panic stricken with an active shooter isn't the smartest or best solution around. Yea, if you have a family member in there or a close friend you do what you have to do. But otherwise the best bet is to not make yourself into a victim trying to be a hero. Would I run into a school full of small kids? You bet I would. Would I run into a theater or bar? Not unless I knew I could do some good. IF I were in one of those buildings when the shooting started and didn't have an easy out I'd do what I could. And I've had training in counterinsurgent operations and anti terror operations. And I'd be very careful as to what I did. I'd hate to cause more harm than good. Remember, you start blazing away, keeping in mind the stress levels you will be facing, the dim lighting and panicking people you have more of a chance of killing an innocent person than you do the bad guy. Then you have to live with that.

Rick
 
There was an armed person in that club. It was an off duty cop working security but he ran for cover and called for backup. They ended up letting the shooter kill for three hours before they assembled enough force to confront one shooter.
 
Depends on the state. It's legal is some, as long as you are not drinking, such as Tennessee. Not sure about Nebraska. I think it's up to the owner. A guy walked into a local establishment a while back, we didn't care. Except the owner. He moved his sign from the window to the door after that. Who looks in the windows when they are above your head?
 
Prior to the world wars, the most advanced weaponry was in the hands of the people. The Roughriders carried machine guns into battle, procured for them by Teddy Roosevelt's aunts.

Custer's men carried single-shot breechloaders against Indians carrying Winchesters.

Daniel Morgan's militia unit carried their own rifles while the regulars carried smoothbores. Look up what they did to the Brits at Cowpens.

Wealthy officers bought Henry repeaters for their units during the civil war. Sometimes towns would pool resources to buy them for the regiment from their area.
 
There are pretty detailed reports out on what actually happened, doubt any of the arm chair warriors would stand a chance.
 
We are lucky these guys have been such poor marksmen. Anyone worth a snot with a model 94 could move as far as and hit as many targets as kids were shot at Sandy Hook. This guy killed 50 and wounded another 50 IN THREE HOURS. The mall shooter in Washington hid while clearing a jam, to shoot himself, after seeing that there was armed resistance present.
 
THE LARGEST MASS SHOOTING IN US HISTORY HAPPENED December 29,1890. When 297 Sioux Indians at Wounded Knee Creek on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota were murdered by federal agents & members of the 7th Cavalry who had come to confiscate their firearms ?for their own safety and protection?. The slaughter began after the majority of the Sioux had peacefully turned in their firearms. The Calvary began shooting, and managed to wipe out the entire camp. 200 of the 297 victims were women and children.

Wounded Knee was among the first federally backed gun confiscation attempts in United States history. It ended in the senseless murder of 297 people.

The Second Amendment, the right of the people to take up arms in defense of themselves, their families, and property in the face of invading armies or an oppressive government. The Second Amendment was written by people who fled oppressive and tyrannical regimes in Europe, and it refers to the right of American citizens to be armed for defensive purposes, should such tyranny arise in the United States.

Wounded Knee is the prime example of why the Second Amendment exists, and why we should vehemently resist any attempts to infringe on our Rights to Bear Arms. Without the Second Amendment we will be totally stripped of any ability to defend ourselves and our families.
 
(quoted from post at 11:03:38 06/13/16)
(quoted from post at 06:34:08 06/13/16)
(quoted from post at 10:15:48 06/13/16)
(quoted from post at 22:13:53 06/12/16) Read my reply to another post below. The jist of it is, when it comes to LE, most in the city have far less practice time with their weapons than the average gun owner.

Too, the gunman has rarely had any more training than the 'super person' you mention.

Granted with LE there are the special teams that practice a lot more than th average beat cop, but even with them, basically all they do is punch holes and target shoot in a more 'tactical' environment.....Something even the average gun owner can do if they so desire.

That part of the equation aside, which would you rather do, be in a situation where someone was shooting at you and your family, and you knew for a fact no one in the place was armed but the gunman.........and as long as he didn't run out of bullets first, you, and your family were going to die???????????????????? Or would you rather be in the place with someone like myself who shoots regularly, who carries everywhere I can legally do so, and wouldn't think twice about drawing my weapon in defense of myself or others if the need arose ?????????????

In other words, which do you prefer, KNOWING YOU HAD ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE AT LIVING, or knowing you had even the slightest chance that you and your family will live because even one person was armed??????????

Unfortunately most folks can't even begin to mentally put themselves into a situation like this, thus when, and if, it happens in reality, they are lost.......
Click to expand...

Wayne, it's not weather you want to be in that situation or not. There are a lot of factors involved in that. The biggest being stress. The military has started doing stress shooting. Exercise, getting your pulse up to about 120 then immediately pick up a weapon and engage targets. I suggest you try it sometime. It explains why a lot of cops fire a lot of rounds in a gun fight and don't hit anything. Now take your little pistol, into a darkened club environment, with a panic stricken crowd, with an active shooter firing a weapon with 10 times the accurate range of your weapon without knowing exactly what's going on. Yea sure if you are about to be a victim try your best. But if you have a means to get out then that's the best way to handle it. That's what I'm saying. Every time something like this happens people who have never heard a shot fired in anger claim that they could have taken the bad guy down with their carry gun. Holmes was a prime example. He tossed homemade smoke devices into a darken theater and then started shooting while wearing body armor and headgear. An ole Joe was going to take him out with one shot from his 25ACP. Again, if you or your family are about to be the next victims do your best, but if you can get your family out without drawing attention of the shooter then get the heck out!

Rick
Click to expand...

Rick, the thing is that people HAVE stopped what would have become mass shootings. Every day, ordinary people. It happens, but it doesn't get much news coverage. I don't think everyone needs to go armed 24/7 but lets not pretend that disarming the population is going to improve our chances.
Click to expand...

Oh I know it happens. But that most often with robbers in a store environment or at home and most often with the bad guy not having fired a shot before they are confronted by an armed citizen. I have yet to hear of a mass shooter being stopped by the average joe citizen. And I live in an area with a lot of gun owners. Most only shoot enough to confirm the zero of their deer gun once a year. I did mention that these guys had RIFLES with a lot more range and power than the average guy with a permit is carrying when these shooting occur. In the Holmes and this case a dark, crowded enclosed building with patrons running around in a panic creating a difficult situation for any shooter at best. All I'm saying is at that point in time, if you can get out with family and or friends that is the best course of action. The odds of being able to take someone like that out would mean that you would most likely become just another victim. That isn't the time to start thinking you are super bad guy dropper.


Rick
Click to expand...

No, you never hear of an armed citizen stopping a mass shooting because in the cases I've seen the bad guy was stopped BEFORE it became a mass shooting!!! One guy stopped a shooter in mall without firing a shot, just by aiming his gun at the BG. I'm sorry guy, I was a Marine, I was cop, I know what you're saying and I agree no one is Bruce Willis or Steven Segal. But an armed person CAN and they DO stop BG's every day, often without firing a shot.
 
I thought of this when Orlando was announced as such. The cavalry in such a frenzy killing the Indians that they were shooting each other .
 
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