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Strangest starter problem ever

R

rrlund

Well-known Member
Anybody got a clue on this one?

The starter on my Yamaha Moto 4 250 started groaning when I try to start it. Eventually it would spin over and start. The other night I figured I'd better do something about it. I had what looked like an identical starter off a Moto 4 200. I put that one on and it wouldn't work at all. I hooked it to a battery with the jumper cables,still nothing. I took the original apart and it had a lot of oil in it. I cleaned it all up,put it back on and it started right up. I rode it,shut it off and it wouldn't start again. I took the other one apart,it had oil in it too. I cleaned that one up,wouldn't work. I ordered a new one but it's not here yet.

I had some time on my hands today,so I took both of them apart,cleaned everything up,took the best parts from the two and made one. I hooked that one to a battery with the jumper cables,negative ground,it spun. I put it back on and it was spinning the wrong way. I took it off,hooked it back up to the jumper cables,positive ground and it spun the right way.

I tried every possible combination of armature and field housing,got the same results every time. The plastic was partially melted in one end cap,so that was the only thing I couldn't try swapping out. No matter what I did,it spins backwards when I hook negative ground or put it back on the machine. I haven't had any other wires unhooked.

Last time I put it back on,I hooked the jumper cables right to the starter,positive ground and it started. Shut it off,turn the key right back on,push the starter button,it spins backwards.
I even tried switching the cables on the battery in the machine and it blew a fuse.

I'm stumped. If the new starter turns backwards when it gets here,I'm not gonna be a happy camper.
 
Is it a starter with permanent magnet fields ? I have read of others that found certain model Harley Davidson starters will spin the wrong direction if you assemble them wrong. I have also seen it on small Permanent Magnet mower engine starters when reverse polarity was applied.
 
If this starter body has the permanent magnets glued in it, could you have put it together end to end backwards? The poles of the magnets are the only part that cares about the positive and negative.

Interesting problem. Keep in touch. Just a story but about 45 years ago before I had much money for a reversible drill I took one of the drill motors I had and wired it so it would run backwards. My Dad visited and was doing some project and couldn't get a hole drilled. Doesn't have anything to do with your starter but was kinda funny at the time.
 
I'm wondering about the melted end cap, is that where the brushes are?

I have a vague memory of some brush type motor I had apart many years ago that the direction of rotation was determined by the position of the brush holder. Is it possible the holder has turned slightly where the motor is undecided about which way to run?

Just a thought...
 
It's a 2 brush starter. One brush is hooked with a copper cable,right to the hot post. The other one is hooked right to a ground strap with a copper cable and grounded right to the housing. The cap was melted where the brush to the hot post goes. The ground brush was good in that one,so I put that good brush in the other cap. Both brushes have springs behind them to hold them out against the armature. They appear to be 180 degrees opposite each other in both caps.
 
The magnets are mounted permanent in the housing,yes. I swapped the housings around with the magnets intact. Tried both armatures in both housings.
 
If you move the starter brushes 90 degrees they will turn backwards. I think steve is right and you have the brushholder in wrong? Or you could have the housing on upside down . But they usually won't go together that way. jstpa
 
So if I rotate the field housing 180 degrees? It won't go 90 degrees. There are plastic tabs in the cap that go between the field magnets. The brushes are opposite each other,180 degrees. They can't be moved 90.
It can't be backwards as far as having it on from the wrong end. It only has one end cap. The other end just wraps around as a sealed unit.
 
any chance the battery went copletly dead and when you charged it had charger cables backwards.i did that on lawn tractor once.boy was I pi--ed at myself.run battery dead and charged it right and worked like it should.
 
I give up. If anybody has a clue,let me know.

I just took the starter back off. I took the long bolts out and rotated the field housing 180 degrees. I put it back on and it turned the right way,but it just creaked and groaned and wouldn't turn the engine all the way over. I hooked the jumper cables to the truck battery,negative ground,same thing. I took it back off,swapped out the other field housing. Hooked it to the jumper cables,it ran backwards. Took the bolts out,rotated it 180,hooked it to the cables again,it just groaned again. I spun it by hand while it was groaning and it ran,but slowly and kept getting slower. If I took the cable off and touched it on there again,I had to spin it by hand to get it going again. Defies all logic. Not that I know anything about anything electrical.

It is Sunday though. I wonder if I go take it all apart,throw all the pieces together in a bucket,then try to build it all back from scratch tomorrow,if it'll work?
 
It wasn't dead. When I tried to start it a week ago,it groaned like the battery was weak,but then it picked up speed and started right up. Even with the jumper cables it runs backwards unless I ground it the other way. I've got the charger on it now because it groaned when I got it to turn the right way,but jumping it right off the truck,off the machine it barely turns. Rotate the fields 180 so it turns backwards and it'll about spin right out of your hand.
 
I'm gonna guess the positions of the permanent magnets don't correspond correctly the the brushholder/brush locations.
 
It doesn't matter which field housing I use on that cap. There are plastic tabs in the cap that go between the magnets and the bolts go between the tabs. I can see that maybe they don't quite line up one way and do the other,but why do they line up when it's turning the wrong way and not when it's turning the right way? And why does it turn backwards with either field housing until I rotate it 180,then it turns the right way,but barely turns? One of those field housings went with that brush end cap.
 
Which one were you talking about? The link just takes me to yahoo search. I clicked the one that took me to You Tube and somebody working on one,but that was totally different than mine. He was tearing in to things on the inside,mine is mounted on the outside of the machine. There was one for a Honda turning backwards,but that one wouldn't even load.
 
I don't know. I thought it was. The gear on the inside will only turn the engine when it's turned one way. The other way,it just coasts,so now I don't think so. It charges off the stator then doesn't it? It just sounds like a starter turning with the Bendix not kicking in,but it doesn't have one. The shaft is just splined on the end. I hooked the ground wire that goes to it,up to the hot post and touched the wire that should be hot to the housing and it ran the right way,but I kind of fumbled it and it touched the frame and the sparks flew. The screw for the ground cable is larger than the one to the hot post and won't fit. There's a boot on the hot wire too,so I know I had it right.
 
This also seems to have something to do with trying to work on Sunday..... ;-)

I seem to recall what happens when you do that :)
 
Yep,like I said,I'd best take it apart,throw the parts in a bucket and start over tomorrow.
 


I'm wondering if you have bad electrical wires or cables somewhere in the system. Wires can corrode or just break inside the plastic coating so that the break is not obvious. Good luck.

KEH
 
Maybe ya gots ta change tha oril while yer in thar. Or, meebe even better, got to Mother Deere and git a new starter....
 
If the field/housing cannot be put on with the outer end on the inner frame, then the brushes are wired to the wrong brush. Or you have entered an alternate universe. Jim
 
If Ma Deere had one they'd want more for it than I paid for the whole machine. And it would be the wrong one when I got it home.
 
I'll have to go with the alternate universe thing. One brush has the wire fastened right to the lug that the hot wire hooks to,the other one has an end pressed on and a screw goes through it. The wires aren't anywhere near long enough to cross them up.
 
One thing I've seen no one ask yet.....Are you 100% sure it's turning the wrong way. I ask because the way it's oriented to the ring gear could make it necessary for it to turn backwards from what is normal.

I know I ran into this with a tractor once. The repair shop had just swapped out the starter for me. When I got it back on the machine, it wouldn't start. It took me a bit, but I finally realized that with it going into the flywheel housing 180 degrees from a normal starter, it had to turn backwards to function correctly. I carried it back, they rebuild my old one, and all was well.
 
It won't turn the engine over. The gear that it runs against free wheels one way,turns the engine over the other way. If I hook the jumper cables on with positive ground so it spins the other way,it'll start it. I've checked with it off the machine. Positive ground = clockwise rotation,negative ground = counter clockwise. It should be the other way around.
 
Did you try swapping the case/magnets end for end, not rotating it! This means putting the end of the housing/magnets that was by the brushes , on the end with the drive gear. this effectively changes the North south position of the magnets. Jim
 
I can't. It only has a removable cap on one end. The end where the shaft comes out is sealed.
 
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