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Fan shroud and temperature gauge on 8N tractor

S

skipstein

Member
Hello All;
On my 8n, I have flushed out the radiator, replaced the hoses and installed a new thermstat in the upper hose. Prior to doing all mentioned activities, my 8n ran HOT. I should mention that there was NO termostat in the upper hose. Hopefully after the cleaning and flushing the radiator and eengine, having a thermostat inline, it will run cooler. My question is whether I should source and install a FAN SHROUD for the 8n? I have seen many an 8n without a fan shroud, but am willing to get one and install it brfore putting the hood back on the tractor, if it will help keep it at normal operating temp. One other question, if I may, has anyone installed a temperature guage on an 8n? I wonder where to moount the gauge and install the sensor? One final question, what is normal operating temp of the 8n? The new thermostat is a 160 degree unit, so is it that range? Any thoughts on use of a fan shroud and mounting a temperature gauge and sensor on an 8n are greatly appreciated.
'Thanks,
Skip
 
I an not real familiar with Fords, but in general 160 is cool. Engines run best at 180 to 200 degrees. If you had trouble with over heating in the summer with a high load implement or some such will maybe a 160. As for the gauge, I have put them in upper hoses by cutting the hose and inserting a short section of steel tube with a threaded pipe bushing welded in the center for the gauge, then two hose clamps. Do you have enough length of hose for this? Or maybe there is a plug where an optional gauge went? I have seen model Ts that ran hot without the thermostat, and just fine with it installed. Maybe you don't have a problem anymore with what you have done. If the fan is fairly close to the radiator, maybe within 1 1/2", probably you don't need a shroud, but if you are still having problems it might help. Is the timing right? Late ignition timing will make an engine run hot too.
 
Hi there is a flat spot on the Cyl head on forward left side that is where most drill and tap to install a bulb type temp gauge, others have used or made an adapter to fit in the upper rad hose ahead of the thermostat, have you checked the radiator cap the 8N have a pressurized cooling system and if the rad cap isn't good it will affect cooling and a fan shroud helps. At one time there were kits being sold on e bay for a temp gauge install.
You might ask this question in the Ford 8N section you'll get lots of replies.
GB in MN
 
Hi Folks;
The 8n tractor is new to me, so I am not sure if it ran HOT, but possibly. I know in the recent past, there was not a thermostat in the system. As I understand, without a thermostat, the coolant does not stay in the engine long enough to help cool it or in the radiator to also allow air to cool the coolant. Will the position of the temp sensor show a skewed or correct reading based on location? For example, in the upper radiator hose (or) in the block drain plug area of the engine. If installed in the upper radiator hose, the sensor would be upstream from the thermostat. In the block drain plug, the sensor would be in the water jacket of the engine. Any thoughts of where to mount the gauge?
Also, I have heard of early 8n tractors, front mount distributor, having a later 8n dash mounted in place of the early style (?) Yes or no? On that, if I were to mount a later 8n dash, will evertying fit the same and is it possible to retrofit a 'proofmeter' on an early 8n?
Many questions, I appreciate your knowledgeable comments and suggestions.
Thanks,
Skip
 
You want the temp sender high, around the upper hose or in it, that flat mentioned would be a great spot. The flat is on the cylinder head, to the left of where the upper hose attaches (round flat spot), you will need the correct drill bit and tap to install the sender here. Using the block drain spot would be about the coldest spot on the engine, it will give you some indication of engine temps but not very accurate.
 
Also, you are in the general tractor talk section. If you scroll down in the topics you will see a specific 9N,2N,8N section. It would be best to put your questions there since more people will probably be able to help you better.
 
Thanks for the info. Being I have not physically installed the upper radiator hose yet, sounds like that is the ideal spot.
Skip
 
The best place to install the temp sender is the flat spot on the cylinder head on the left side, the tractor will just fine with out a thermostat the thing of not having a thermostat is it can take a very long time for the engine to warm up to operating temp in cooler temps and in the winter may never get warmed up, I removed the Tstat from my "B" Farmall as it stuck closed and was over heating never got around to replacing it and it cools just fine and I never use it in the winter so its ok. I would guess you could with some work replace the dash with the late style dash but it would be a lot of work for in my opinion little gain , if you want to know the R's and have a hour meter it would be a lot easier to install a Tiny Tach. To add a proofmeter would require replacing the governor also.
GB in mn
 
On these tractors a coolant temp gauge is not necessarily needed but nothing wrong with having one. You will start spitting coolant out of the radiator before the engine gets hot enough to actually "overheat" or do damage. The radiator cap should be a 4 PSI cap, at 4 psi and 50/50 mix the boiling point will be around 225*F.
 
Without a temperature gauge, how do you know that your engine is overheating?

The cooling system in an 8N is sized such that it is rare for the engine to overheat, ABSENT OTHER PROBLEMS, e.g., cracked head, leaking head gasket, retarded timing, etc.

That said, a fan shroud is needed to maintain adequate air flow through the radiator, especially at low RPM. Does your engine overheat at operating RPM? If so, though a fan shroud is recommended and, perhaps, helpful, lack of such is likely not the primary cause of your problem.

These days, most overheating problems with N series tractors are due to inadequate airflow through the radiator due to debris clogging of the core when mowing. Has your radiator been recored with an automotive type core? If so, you will ALWAYS have overheating problems when mowing as serpentine automotive type cores quickly clog with debris, restricting air flow. For anything other than a trailer queen you must have a flat-finned industrial type core. These days, such cores are more expensive than automotive type cores and radiator shops will not install such unless specified.

Moreover, even if you still have the OEM radiator, it is now over 60 years old and has likely been repaired many times. The quick and dirty way to repair leaks in a vintage radiator core is to simply pinch-off the leaking tube and solder it closed. If this has been done multiple times, the radiator is now undersized. Look for such evidence.

Be wary of aftermarket replacement radiators. Most have inexpensive, serpentine, automotive type cores, and are completely unsuitable for anything but a trailer queen.

Dean
 
It would be better if you replaced the fan shroud as it directs the air back onto the block rather than dispersing it.
 
I would try putting in a thermostat first, 160 would be sufficient. I don't know if it originally had a shroud, but if it did, it needs to be there.

The temp sensor needs to be in the head, below the thermostat. Down in the block is too low, too far from the combustion area, will give a false cool reading.

If it has a history of running hot, there may be a circulation problem (rust) or a leaking head gasket.

A circulation problem, as in clogged radiator or coolant passages in the head, will typically show up as overheating under load. If the engine is hot, yet the air coming through the radiator is cool, there is a blockage. Also, feel the front of the radiator. If there are cold spots, it is clogged internally. And double check for external blockage, they can pack with sand and grass.

Overheating at idle, or blowing coolant out even when the engine is cool, emulsified coolant/oil accumulating in the crank case breather tube or under the oil cap are all signs of a leaking head gasket. Flat head engines are prone to head gasket problems. Typical causes are from being overheated, warped head, or improper installation.

If you do end up pulling the head, it will need to be surfaced and checked for cracks. The coolant passages in the head and block need to be cleaned. The block surface needs to be thoroughly cleaned with Scotchbrite. This is easier with the studs removed. If there is any doubt about the studs and nuts, replace them.

These are just generic answers, to get more model specific results, try posting on the "N" board below. Also a shop manual will be a very valuable investment!
 

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1099979&highlight=drill

I Prefer putting the sender in the head... Coolant absorbs heat air takes it away :wink: The more air flow the more heat can be removed. I have ran N's with out a shroud but they had a temp gauge so I knew when it was time to stop working it. I would check the grill for restrictions then turn the engine up and watch the temp go down. I had one that had a issue keeping the belt tight it would run toward the hot side I would stop and turn the engine up to cool it back down.

Some depend on steam blowing out the rad for there gauge I call them tractor drivers. Drivers can dream up some neat excuses as not to have a gauge are shroud...
 
I'll weigh in here with my opinion. My 8n gets worked more than most, I would think.
I have neither a thermostat or a fan shroud. Used winter and summer for everything from dragging logs to brush hogging in tall weeds, brush, and grass. I rarely have to add water. I do check the water level every time I use it.
Richard in NW SC
 
Thermostats cool engine coolants by holding them in the radiator until needed. That's what they do. Not having a thermostat can cause an engine not to get up to proper operating temperature for an extended period of time, AND can cause an engine to overheat because once it does heat up, then the coolant isn't held in the radiator to properly cool. Installing a thermostat is a good idea. As far as installing a shroud, I don't know that that tractor had one originally, but that doesn't make installing one a bad idea. Fan shrouds are installed in motor vehicles for a reason, to properly force a funnel of air through a radiator to properly cool the coolant in the radiator as opposed to having the fan do what it does, draw air from anywhere it can get it, even from the sides and not through the radiator if there's no shroud to funnel the air. Use quality mixed antifreeze as well, not straight water that has a lower boiling point and will cause corrosion much faster.

That being said, if your tractor is overheating, you may have something else going on. However, installing a thermostat is one of the best place to start in prevention along with making sure that the radiator is clean inside without clogged passages. Installing a shroud that encompasses the radiator down to an exit not much larger than the fan blades themselves will NEVER hurt and will also better direct/aim cooling air back at the engine as well. There have been a vast amount of improvements since that tractor was manufactured, incorporate them whenever possible.

Good luck.

Mark
 
N series Ford tractors did, indeed, have a fan shroud installed as OEM equipment.

The design engineers among you can attest that none would have been installed unless it was considered necessary.

Dean
 
Hello MNGB;
Thanks for the info. One question about running a 'tiny tach'. where would I pick up the RPM's of the engine. I would imagine that, unlike the stock later 8n, this would be an electric pulse not a mechanical one (?).
Skip
 
Thank you all Gentlmen for your insight and input.
I think I will run a thermostat in the upper radiator hose. Then try it out and see what happens, I will also pressure wash the radiator to make sure it is clear of derbus (that is a technical term for clogged up...) If no change, I will think about the fan shroud and do some research about whether the early 8n's had a shroud. I don't have the facilities at home to drill and tap the head. Are there extrac ports or (?) that I could use for the sensor?
Thanks,
Skip
 
ALL Ford N series tractors were originally equipped with a fan shroud.

ALL of them.

No exceptions.

Dean
 
Thanks Dean for the info. I may just look into adding the correct shroud while I am taking care of the new radiator hose, thermostat, etc. Can't hurt...
Skip
 
Hello All;
Thanks for allyour help! I do appreciate the input.
Does anyone haev an idea of an unused port or fitting to the water jacket in the head that I can add a temp sensor fitting? My 8n is, as far as I can tell, is a '48 or '49 front mount distributor model.
On another subject; am I able to add a tach to my 8n? I understand the governor on an early 8n is not set up for a cable. Also, would it be an electronic pulse rather than a mechanical cable, as in a later 8n and forward?
Thanks,
Skip
 
(quoted from post at 13:30:16 04/23/16) Hello MNGB;
Thanks for the info. One question about running a 'tiny tach'. where would I pick up the RPM's of the engine. I would imagine that, unlike the stock later 8n, this would be an electric pulse not a mechanical one (?).
Skip
Click to expand...
The Tiny Tach uses a lead wire that wraps around a spark plug wire that's all there is to connect then mount it where you would like it on the dash. Jast ask to get one for your engine (4 stroke vs 2 stroke)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WPS-TT2A-TI...item488b76ae63:g:saMAAOSwI3RW-KOP&vxp=mtr
 
Mark "Thermostats cool engine coolants by holding them in the radiator until needed. That's what they do. Not having a thermostat can cause an engine not to get up to proper operating temperature for an extended period of time, AND can cause an engine to overheat because once it does heat up, then the coolant isn't held in the radiator to properly cool."

This is not true, a thermostat holds the coolant in the engine not the radiator when the coolant in the engine block and head heats up to the thermostat opening temp it opens up and allows coolant to flow thur the entire system. You do not need a thermostat to cool and engine it purpose is to heat the coolant to operating quicker, there are tens of thousand of engines that have no thermostat nor do they have a water pump and the cool just fine if as with any system it is in good condition
GB in MN
 
Thanks you MNGB! I never saw or heard of anything like that. Does it wrap aroung any spark plug wire or on the plug itself?
Thanks again.
Skip
 
I agree with you about the thermostat. Your tractor does need one.

Be certain to install it in the proper orientation when you do. Your engine will likely overheat if you install it backwards.

Dean
 
While it is true lots of engines do fine without a thermostat (I have some), there are engines that will overheat without a thermostat.

Holding water in the radiator longer is not the purpose, however, thermodynamicaly speaking, more flow will always move more energy out of the engine and through the radiator. With higher flow rates the water will come out of the engine cooler but energy transfer from the engine metal contacting the water will be faster because the water is cooler. Energy transfer only takes temperature difference to occur, and the higher the difference the greater the energy flow.

Some engines have a water pump which requires back pressure inorder to work properly. Without enough back pressure the pump will cavitate and not move as much or any water. A thermostat is required for those engines to work properly.
 
You know these N's don't get the radiator filled to the top . They do not have an overflow tank so you need to leave room for expansion or they will spew out the excess and apear to be overheating .

Most folks say to fill them just above the cooling fin tubes that you see looking inside the top tank . I usually fill them about half way on the top tank . If it blows out it is too much but then it is just about where it needs to be .

Temp gauges are handy if you cut tall grass / weeds that may block your air flow . i would just assume stop at 210* and clean the grill as to wait until I blow out antifreeze ( especially if you only have a little bit above the inside fins , then you ARE low )
 

We can only go by what you tell us...

I would check coolant flow thru the rad...
Pull the lower rad hose off, block off the top hose and put a garden hose in the fill neck full blast. The rad should flow all the water your garden hose can put to it with out pushing water out the fill neck...

If OK yer rad izz not'cher problem unless air flow is restricted...

Rad good airflow good and it heats with out a thermostat I would be checking the head gasket... This is one a bud of mine replaced a few weeks ago, it would blow off hot at times for no reason at all while pull'N a Finnish mower. I would have took the time to find the issue with out pull'N the head because I can, he checked what I asked him to check all was OK and yanked the head... BTW I know for a fact it has never had a thermostat in it...





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(quoted from post at 19:00:07 04/23/16)
(quoted from post at 13:30:16 04/23/16) Hello MNGB;
Thanks for the info. One question about running a 'tiny tach'. where would I pick up the RPM's of the engine. I would imagine that, unlike the stock later 8n, this would be an electric pulse not a mechanical one (?).
Skip
Click to expand...
The Tiny Tach uses a lead wire that wraps around a spark plug wire that's all there is to connect then mount it where you would like it on the dash. Jast ask to get one for your engine (4 stroke vs 2 stroke)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WPS-TT2A-TI...item488b76ae63:g:saMAAOSwI3RW-KOP&vxp=mtr
Click to expand...
Keep in mind if you have the original style wire core spark plug wires these things are pretty much worthless.
If you are any where near me you are welcome to borrow mine and try it.
I bought it and it just sits in the cupboard because of that.
It works Ok on engines with noise suppression/carbon wires.
Especially ones with EI. But they usually already have their own.

This is a direct quote from their tech support: "The TT-2A Tiny
Tach is not the best choice for your 1940's Ford 4 cyl. because of
point noise and other EMF not addressed in that ignition system."
 
160 works fine for me here in Michigan. Summer and winter.
If anything, I have trouble getting mine hot enough because
I rarely run them longer than a couple of hours at a time.
Have you tried a hand held laser thermometer so you know
what the actual temp is? They're about $15.

I have a spare shroud if you need one.
Email is open on Modern view.
 
Keep in mind if you have the original style wire core spark plug wires these things are pretty much worthless.
If you are any where near me you are welcome to borrow mine and try it.
I bought it and it just sits in the cupboard because of that.
It works Ok on engines with noise suppression/carbon wires.
Especially ones with EI. But they usually already have their own.

This is a direct quote from their tech support: "The TT-2A Tiny
Tach is not the best choice for your 1940's Ford 4 cyl. because of
point noise and other EMF not addressed in that ignition system."[/quote]
Hi Royce, you are right I did have one on my 8n but its 15+ yrs ago and I can't remember if the tach part worked the hour meter part did but after the battery died I never replaced it and I know they don't work on the Kohler K series engines, thanks for pointing that out I had forgotten that.
GB in MN
 
(quoted from post at 22:53:05 04/23/16) Keep in mind if you have the original style wire core spark plug wires these things are pretty much worthless.
If you are any where near me you are welcome to borrow mine and try it.
I bought it and it just sits in the cupboard because of that.
It works Ok on engines with noise suppression/carbon wires.
Especially ones with EI. But they usually already have their own.

This is a direct quote from their tech support: "The TT-2A Tiny
Tach is not the best choice for your 1940's Ford 4 cyl. because of
point noise and other EMF not addressed in that ignition system."
Click to expand...
Hi Royce, you are right I did have one on my 8n but its 15+ yrs ago and I can't remember if the tach part worked the hour meter part did but after the battery died I never replaced it and I know they don't work on the Kohler K series engines, thanks for pointing that out I had forgotten that.
GB in MN[/quote]
Time plays tricks on all of our memories. Only natural.
The TT is a neat little device. Just not suited for all situations.
I'll find a permanent use for mine someday.
 
Hi Dean;
Thanks. I know about the pointed end toward the radiator, I have mounted it about 1/3 up on the top hose. Here is an interesting question. If I decide to go with an inline temp sensor, I understand it is to be mounted down strean from the thermostat, which means the thermostat will be up close to the radiator end of the hose. Is this an issue? I do not have the capability at home to drill and tap a hole for an in-head temp fitting.
Thanks again,
Skip
 
Hi Royse;
Thanks for the offer, I am in California, might be a while away... Your tech comment is interesting as it is directly related to the nature of the 1940's Ford engine technology.
Thanks,
Skip
 
Hi Royse;
Thanks for the offer of the rad shroud. I actually grew up in Royal Oak, Michigan. Been in California since the late 60's. I am not sure what is or how to get to the 'modern view' of this venue (?)
Skip
 
Modern view is an updated view of the forum.
It puts posts in chronological order instead of
bouncing them around to the post that was replied to.
You can swap back and forth by using the link at the top right.

There should be an email link on this post too.
 
Hello Royse;
You mentioned, in the discussion of the fan shroud for my 8n, that you had an extra one. If you interesed in selling the 8n shroud, please let me know.
Thanks again for all your insights and advise.
Skip
 
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