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The ongoing ethanol debate

J

jimg.allentown

Well-known Member
The ethanol debate will continue on as it has taken on a life of its own.

Personally, I do not like it. I think that it is mostly a matter of personal choice. This is not a new thing. I remember being offered a choice back in the mid '70s. It did not do well then, and it probably would not now given a free choice and a level playing field versus pure gasoline.

Whether you like it or not, all I want to see is CHOICE!! I think it only fair that if I choose not to use it in my antique Packard, I should have that choice. Same goes for my newer vehicles. No matter if it is good, bad, or indifferent.
 
Here in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, more and more gas statoins are offering one pump with regular, no-ethanol gas. What a blessing for me. None of my tractors, mowers, weed wackers, etc., run well on the ethanol crap that is being shoved down our throats by the govt.
 
Leaded gas is the only real deal, we should be allowed to have leaded gas again, anything else is just junk.

Paul
 
Driving down the expressway,it's just unbelievable how many cars are broken down because of that stuff. More abandoned cars than there are mile markers aren't there?

Sarcasm alert.
 
The big white elephant in the room for us is if ethanol was shelved there would be a huge glut of corn at least domestically. A sizable portion of the board here would take a heavy hit financially. Mandates helped lift corn prices but the effect was short lived as it drove up the cost of doing business in terms of land, inputs, and machinery. I would suspect that for quite a few if they are not to this point yet they will arrive at a point where they are no better off than corn was consistently in the 2.00-2.50 dollar range.
 
I use E-10 in everything that I do not have to mix fuel for, like chain saws and 2-stroke outboards, and have no problems with it. I understand the ethanol cuts down on pollution and we all breathe the same air, maybe some don't care what they breath, but I do! We have premium without ethanol available in MN for my 2-strokes, and that is what I use. I would never want to go back to leaded gas, apparently some of you are not old enough to remember changing spark plugs every 10,000 miles
 
(quoted from post at 09:49:23 03/23/16) I use E-10 in everything that I do not have to mix fuel for, like chain saws and 2-stroke outboards, and have no problems with it. I understand the ethanol cuts down on pollution and we all breathe the same air, maybe some don't care what they breath, but I do! We have premium without ethanol available in MN for my 2-strokes, and that is what I use. I would never want to go back to leaded gas, apparently some of you are not old enough to remember changing spark plugs every 10,000 miles
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Unleaded doesn't have to have ethanol in it. That would be my choice, no ethanol in any of my gas tanks! I run all my gas tractors on non ethanol gas because I can! Don't like bio fuels at all. Not because it's good or bad but because the idiots in the MN state legislators and governor mandate it.

Rick
 
SWMBO & I have made a few trips to Oklahoma, filled up her car at the Indian gas station with 100% gas. The fuel milage jumps from 25 mpg to 31 mpg every time. Milage increase more than offsets the slightly higher price.
 
Russ
Not to mention that most antique tractors vented their exhaust pretty much into the face of the operator. I remember riding a model A Deere and thinking -how many mad-hatters where created by breathing that lead. JD
 
Farm land prices would never have risen to over $10,000 per acre without the ethanol subsidies.
 
I think it is kinda like decaf coffee. At work a few years ago the owner came in one day and said he was sorry but he couldn't have any cafeen. Would we mind. Our Secretary just smiled and showed him the green can. Decaf. We had been drinking it for 10 yrs. Nobody had ever noticed. Just filled up with e85. .28 cents cheaper. Just 1.54.
 
I hope the guys who enjoyed paying that kind of money are now enjoying paying property taxes based on those values. There are guys locally who are crying about the increased assessment that they had a hand in creating. I see land prices dropping because land will be forced on the market because operators will reach a point where they will lack the cash to pay the taxes and the banks will decide it is time for a correction in the farm economy.
 
I remember as a youngster smelling the exhaust from the Farmall H and I thought it smelled good, especially when the engine was hot. The pipe was white inside, never thought about all the damage it was causing me back in the '50's and early 60's. BTW, it didn't kill me yet.
 
I've had absolutely no problems with my tractors,mowers,chain saws,weed eaters,etc with ethanol in them..
 
HMMMM, You paid about 15% less for "gas" that will give you 20% to 30% less mileage.

Doesn't sound like much of a deal!
 
I agree that it should be a choice. Personally I've not had good luck with E10. My mileage drops about 10% with E10 vs straight gasoline and my small engines don't like it. What we get down here turns to a cloudy substance that will hardly burn a brush pile in just a couple of summer months. It lasts a little better in the winter. But there are enough trustworthy people that say they have good luck that I believe them. There are also plenty of trustworthy people that say they have had bad luck and I also believe them. I don't know what the difference is, it may be the way it's blended, the humidity in the air or something else.
 
Honestly, I seriously doubt that putting ethanol in gasoline makes any measurable difference in air quality. Today's engines are so much cleaner than older engines even as recently as the 1990s that their emissions are too minute to even measure with ordinary testing equipment. Oxidation and reduction catalysts have taken care of the little that is left after leaving the combustion chamber.

I sure do remember when changing spark plugs was a twice a year deal. I also remember carburetors and points. Keep in mind that back in the 1960s, most spark plugs were copper non resistor plugs. Today's plugs are platinum or iridium and are fired with 80,000 volt ignition systems. Points are gone along with distributors and carburetors.
 
Don't most gas stations have that choice? The ones around me do. Seemed a lot of people used HEET years ago, what was that about?
 
Take 2 metal cans, put alcohol in one and pure gas in the other, light them up and let them burn empty, see which is cleaner and fully burns!
 
(quoted from post at 11:01:21 03/23/16) Honestly, I seriously doubt that putting ethanol in gasoline makes any measurable difference in air quality. Today's engines are so much cleaner than older engines even as recently as the 1990s that their emissions are too minute to even measure with ordinary testing equipment. Oxidation and reduction catalysts have taken care of the little that is left after leaving the combustion chamber.

I sure do remember when changing spark plugs was a twice a year deal. I also remember carburetors and points. Keep in mind that back in the 1960s, most spark plugs were copper non resistor plugs. Today's plugs are platinum or iridium and are fired with 80,000 volt ignition systems. Points are gone along with distributors and carburetors.
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The big difference came when they removed lead from gas. Most vehicles built after fuel injection became standard don't burn any cleaner with ethanol in the mix. Both fuels will pass the sniffer tests in the same cars.

Even the resistor plugs back then had to be changed every 10-12 thousand miles. It was because of the lower voltage systems and the materials used to make the plugs.

Rick
 
I spent a lot of time on our JD R when I was young, I put a piece of 4 inch stove pipe on top of the stack, fit perfect and got the
fumes above my head. In those days we stood up on the tractor to break the monotony of sitting all day long.
 
Are you sure it doesn't have ethanol in it? I saw a pump last year that did not say it had ethanol, same price as regular, so I took some home and tested it, it had about 10% ethanol! It's a simple test, google it.
 
I have to wonder aloud here, when there was $7 corn and they were talking about it raising the cost of food we were assured that it would have no effect. The reasons were because the waste from the distillers was used to feed cattle and since the corn was used twice that we didn't actually use more corn than normal, we just used the same corn twice. Now I'm hearing that it does affect the price. Having a hard time wrapping my head around it.
That being said I run e10 in the vehicles that get driven regularly but ethanol free in old tractors without sealed tanks and that only get started 1 or 2 times a year.
 
Here in northern middle TN I have one station that sells non-ethanol "premium" gas. My 1967 Ford F-100 owner's manual states to use "Regular 94 octane gas", the best I can get is 90 octane, runs better than the 87 or 89 regulars but not by much. Since most vehicles around here are newer (I don't know how a lot of them make the payments), there is less demand for and less supply of non-ethanol. If someone thinks I should buy a newer vehicle they are welcome to make the payments for me.
 
(quoted from post at 11:27:19 03/23/16) I've had absolutely no problems with my tractors,mowers,chain saws,weed eaters,etc with ethanol in them..
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Let them set a bit too long and you will have some! This winter I had an experience that was new to me, I had a 6-gallon steel can that I'd filled up with 'gas' that was 10 percent ethanol and it sat for 3 or 4 weeks in a shed under a (roof) with the caps in place and tightened. One cold but sunny day I had need of one of my old gas tractors so I got the can and a funnel and started putting 'gas' in the tractor. Before the can was empty the funnel was getting up to the brim so I took the can to another tractor and emptied it, pouring out of the 'big' end. Normally, if you pour too fast the funnel will start filling up but will drain if you give it few seconds. In this case, it was a few [b:e284b90d41]minutes[/b:e284b90d41] so I was pretty surprised to see that the funnel was still full! :shock: I took the funnel out of the tank and dumped the funnel into it from the 'big' end and looked into the funnel - there, caught by the funnel's bronze screen, was a pile of ICE CRYSTALS! So, either the 'gas' had water in it from the station (had been cold and dry for over a month and the same 'gas' had been used in my truck) OR the ethanol 'gas' had separated, with the water on the bottom. I had put some ethanol 'gas' into a glass jar the summer before to see if the 'separation' really happens. It took over 2 weeks but it DID separate! The funnel escapade convinced me: I rate ethanol in gas right up there with climate change being caused by humankind ..... FOLLOW THE MONEY to find the truth! :evil:
 
So what's the subsidy?


Until 2015 you can get a subsidy to put in an ethanol pump at a gas station but there is no subsidy for fuel.
 
We were exporting more unprocessed corn back several years ago during the worldwide shortages. Also, I don't think that there is anything close to a full conversion of shelled corn to distillers grain. Maybe somebody will have statistics that say otherwise.
 
rrlund, Yes if it was as bad as we read, there would be cars all up and down our highways and freeway/interstates broke down with fuel related problems. I just recently resurrected a 91 Ford tempo that has been sitting for two years. will become a first car for granddaughter. The tank was nearly full when parked with a thermostat problem. Got that all fixed and car has ran just fine on that 2yr plus old E-10.I believe it is a convenient scapegoat for any problems people have with cars or small engines. I liked your sarcasm. gobble
 
I think the pollution issue has been refuted more than once and the reduced milage adds to pollution. The goverment has bought into it though and it can't be changed.
 
That reminds me of something that happened here a few years ago. Somebody had some tablets that would increase gas mileage. He was putting on meetings trying to get people to sell them for him. A woman who was on board of review with me was selling them. I asked her if she remembered all the snake oil from the 70s that increased mileage?
Another member of the board asked her if they really worked. She said absolutely. She was putting two of them in the tank every time she filled up and they were giving her another two miles per gallon.
I don't think it was a week after she claimed that,that there was an article in the paper saying they'd found out they were nothing but moth balls. That proved one of two things. Either moth balls increase mileage,or you can get better mileage of you're driving a little more carefully because you want to get better mileage.
 
I think the mad hatter was effected from mercury in the tanning agents used to process beaver pelts for hats. Bill
 
(quoted from post at 14:58:10 03/23/16) So what's the subsidy?


Until 2015 you can get a subsidy to put in an ethanol pump at a gas station but there is no subsidy for fuel.
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Subsidies for corn ethanol also litter the tax code – including tax breaks for biodiesel and blender pumps which dispense higher blends of ethanol– in addition to Department of Energy programs and other subsidies scattered throughout the federal government such as the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) mandate for the use of corn ethanol administered by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Late last year, Congress passed a tax extenders package that once again extended the Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property Credit, which provides a 30 percent tax break for gasoline stations or other facilities installing biodiesel or 85 percent ethanol (E85) blender pumps. The credit received a one-year retroactive extension for calendar year 2014. While Congress has signaled an intent to take a different approach than routinely extending this package of tax breaks each year, time will tell if any wasteful tax credits are ended later this year.

The mature corn ethanol industry should no longer receive taxpayer support, whether through infrastructure subsidies for ethanol blender pumps in the tax code or production subsidies in the farm bill’s energy title. Given the nation’s current fiscal health, these subsidies are more egregious than ever.

Other Federal Supports for Corn Ethanol
In addition to the numerous special-interest supports corn ethanol has received over the years, including tax breaks, an import tariff, and infrastructure subsidies, a federal production mandate - the RFS - also heavily benefits corn ethanol. The maze of historic subsidies for corn ethanol has allowed the federal government to pick winners and losers, distort energy and agriculture markets, and contributed to expansion and overproduction of corn and ethanol in the industry.


Now add in that some states still subsidize the stuff too.

What about the federally mandate that requires that a certain percentage had to be ethanol laced? That's a back door subsidy.

Rick
 
Mercury was actually what caused the mad hatter syndrome, I think lead leads to slower mental functions.
 
Actually - if you look into it - "they" have been trying to push ethanol from corn since the 1920's. It has never been economically viable without subsidies.
 
R+M method for calculating Octane is what is used now. The old method is about 5 to 8 points higher. Unless you have a hopped up engine use regular it will make no difference in Knock but will save money.
 
Thank you. I don't know about the math, all I have is the owner's manual. It states the the 240 straight 6 has 150 max horse and 234 max torque with a comp ratio of 9.2:1, it needs all the help I can give it. It only has 40,000 miles from new and runs sluggish with 87 octane. The original owner was my Father's high school teacher and only drove it about 100 miles a year around her farm and an occasional trip to the landfill.
 
(quoted from post at 23:18:09 03/23/16) Thank you. I don't know about the math, all I have is the owner's manual. It states the the 240 straight 6 has 150 max horse and 234 max torque with a comp ratio of 9.2:1, it needs all the help I can give it. It only has 40,000 miles from new and runs sluggish with 87 octane. The original owner was my Father's high school teacher and only drove it about 100 miles a year around her farm and an occasional trip to the landfill.
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Best bet is to run 2 tanks each of regular, mid grade and premium through it. On the 2nd tank of each grade note the mileage and performance. We had 2 vehicles back to back that got between 5-8 MPG better with mid grade over regular and only picked up another about 1 MPG with premium. So it made sense to run mid grade in both. Both vehicles stated in the owners manual that all they needed was regular gas.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 14:22:34 03/24/16)
(quoted from post at 23:18:09 03/23/16) Thank you. I don't know about the math, all I have is the owner's manual. It states the the 240 straight 6 has 150 max horse and 234 max torque with a comp ratio of 9.2:1, it needs all the help I can give it. It only has 40,000 miles from new and runs sluggish with 87 octane. The original owner was my Father's high school teacher and only drove it about 100 miles a year around her farm and an occasional trip to the landfill.
Click to expand...

Best bet is to run 2 tanks each of regular, mid grade and premium through it. On the 2nd tank of each grade note the mileage and performance. We had 2 vehicles back to back that got between 5-8 MPG better with mid grade over regular and only picked up another about 1 MPG with premium. So it made sense to run mid grade in both. Both vehicles stated in the owners manual that all they needed was regular gas.

Rick
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'm late to thread, but "ethanol debate?". What "debate"? I thought everyone able to post was smart enough to know that E10 or E85 or E whatever was smart enough to know that it isn't real gasoline! Just like saccharin isn't real sugar. Substitutes for the real thing never measure up & don't in this case either! No "debate". Go back to sleep.
 
There is over 600 products made from corn and ethanol is just another one the demand for the DDGs just goes on and on now exported for just one you need to get up to date. By the way the largest refinery in North America owns several ethanol places could you guess what their name is???
 
(quoted from post at 06:58:10 03/24/16)
(quoted from post at 14:22:34 03/24/16)
(quoted from post at 23:18:09 03/23/16) Thank you. I don't know about the math, all I have is the owner's manual. It states the the 240 straight 6 has 150 max horse and 234 max torque with a comp ratio of 9.2:1, it needs all the help I can give it. It only has 40,000 miles from new and runs sluggish with 87 octane. The original owner was my Father's high school teacher and only drove it about 100 miles a year around her farm and an occasional trip to the landfill.
Click to expand...

Best bet is to run 2 tanks each of regular, mid grade and premium through it. On the 2nd tank of each grade note the mileage and performance. We had 2 vehicles back to back that got between 5-8 MPG better with mid grade over regular and only picked up another about 1 MPG with premium. So it made sense to run mid grade in both. Both vehicles stated in the owners manual that all they needed was regular gas.

Rick
Click to expand...
'm late to thread, but "ethanol debate?". What "debate"? I thought everyone able to post was smart enough to know that E10 or E85 or E whatever was smart enough to know that it isn't real gasoline! Just like saccharin isn't real sugar. Substitutes for the real thing never measure up & don't in this case either! No "debate". Go back to sleep.
Click to expand...


And this pertains to what I wrote how? Sober up before you answer.

Rick
 
I have no idea how it may or may not apply to you! This is ethanol debate thread, right? Not oltankards thread, so perhaps you might expect that it applied to the thread, no personal communications on my part!
 
You can't look at it as miles per gallon. The only way to accurately compare ethanol to regular gas is by cost per mile.
 
If I had a choice, it would be to have an ethanol only engine in my truck, skip the petroleum! A higher compression engine like Oliver did in the XO 121.
 
Four things will happen if the ethanol mandate is lifted.
1. The price of commodities will collapse. If you think prices are bad now wait until ethanol is shut down.
2. The price of gasoline will skyrocket when 10% of the supply is eliminated.
3. The price of food will not drop one penny.
4. Just as many vehicles will be breaking down. Only now ethanol won't be around to blame.
 
(quoted from post at 10:16:21 03/23/16) Farm land prices would never have risen to over $10,000 per acre without the ethanol subsidies.
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What ethanol subsidizes? Please explain. I say we go back to $2.00 corn.
 
(quoted from post at 12:42:43 03/26/16)
(quoted from post at 10:16:21 03/23/16) Farm land prices would never have risen to over $10,000 per acre without the ethanol subsidies.
Click to expand...

What ethanol subsidizes? Please explain. I say we go back to $2.00 corn.
Click to expand...

Being force to buy gas laced with ethanol makes it a back door subsidy. No not paid by the government with taxpayer money, but by the taxpayer at the pump.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 11:25:48 03/24/16) You can't look at it as miles per gallon. The only way to accurately compare ethanol to regular gas is by cost per mile.
Click to expand...

Right now it cost less to make a gallon of gas then it does to make a gallon of ethanol so that means that IF I could buy gas without ethanol here I should at least get better performance if not mileage plus pay a lower price at the pump. After all gas has a higher BTU rating therefore it's more efficient without the ethanol in it.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 11:13:55 03/24/16) I have no idea how it may or may not apply to you! This is ethanol debate thread, right? Not oltankards thread, so perhaps you might expect that it applied to the thread, no personal communications on my part!
Click to expand...

AA man, AA.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 18:27:19 03/23/16) I've had absolutely no problems with my tractors,mowers,chain saws,weed eaters,etc with ethanol in them..
Click to expand...
I've never had any sort of problem either. I buy the cheapest stuff I can find and leave it in the equipment over winter. Tiller starts right up after 2 pulls, push mower the same.
Old iron fires right up in the spring.
 
(quoted from post at 10:35:28 03/28/16)
(quoted from post at 18:27:19 03/23/16) I've had absolutely no problems with my tractors,mowers,chain saws,weed eaters,etc with ethanol in them..
Click to expand...
I've never had any sort of problem either. I buy the cheapest stuff I can find and leave it in the equipment over winter. Tiller starts right up after 2 pulls, push mower the same.
Old iron fires right up in the spring.
Click to expand...

Question here is how long is your winter? Here the push mower, tiller and other small engines sit for 5-6 months minimum. Ethanol laced gas doesn't start to deteriorate for about 90 days untreated and about 6 months treated. I handle it by using non ethanol gas and running em dry before putting them away for the winter.

When I live in KY the down time was about 2 1/2 months.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 14:35:28 03/28/16)
(quoted from post at 18:27:19 03/23/16) I've had absolutely no problems with my tractors,mowers,chain saws,weed eaters,etc with ethanol in them..
Click to expand...
I've never had any sort of problem either. I buy the cheapest stuff I can find and leave it in the equipment over winter. Tiller starts right up after 2 pulls, push mower the same.
Old iron fires right up in the spring.
Click to expand...

i've never had the flu, but i still believe it's very real. i also believe the local guy who fixes 2 cycle stuff when he told me his business has skyrocketed since this started.

he also told me that they sent some samples of gas from pumps labeled E10 for analysis, and one came back as E66.

i've never had issues with my tractors or trucks, but all my 2 cycle stuff gets E0 now.
 
I have been keeping track of the mileage in my 09 Colorado 5 cylinder since day 1. First I ran E10 exclusively. Six months ago I switched to E15. I filled the tank twelve times with E15 during that time. I compared the mileage on E15 with the mileage running E10 twelve months before, during the winter, and there is no difference. Starting with the next fill up I will be running straight unleaded gasoline. I will post the results after a few tank fulls. I realize driving habits and possibly the tune of the engine change so the test is far from scientific. Also I don't know if the fuel I was using was exactly 10% or 15% alcohol at the pump. My old S10 showed no difference in mileage between E10 and regular. I have tried mileage comparisons between the two fuels with the 08 Toyota van on long trips but there were too many variables, mainly involving wind and terrain. Marilyn drives the van around home and I honestly don't know what she fills it with. The mileage always runs about the same with local driving.

As far as reliability goes, yeah, we have five cars sitting along the road per mile with ethanol problems. The diesels are the worst!!!!!! LOL
 
You stated a sample came back as E-66 and yet you always use E-0. How do you [u:c05408ec79]know[/u:c05408ec79] you are using E-0....are you testing each batch to verify?

The local gas station cashier was telling people the station's gas did not contain ethanol. One morning at coffee several of the guys were talking about how much better their trucks were running and the fuel mileage increased by 10 to 20%...etc, etc. There were no labels on the pumps as such and the price was the same as the other station down the road. I purchased a few gallons and pulled a sample to test - it did indeed contain ethanol. When I placed the test jar on the table and explained the phase separation - suddenly no one talked about how well their trucks were running.

To test: place one part water in a glass jar, mark the water level. Add ten parts gasoline to the jar and shake. Allow to settle a minute. Observe the water level; for E-0 the level will remain the same, any ethanol in the gasoline will combine with the water and cause the level to increase. This is called phase separation.
Click to expand...
 
You stated a sample came back as E-66 and yet you always use E-0. How do you [u:873b81f1b9]know[/u:873b81f1b9] you are using E-0....are you testing each batch to verify?
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no, i'm not, ken. i buy gas that is supposedly E0, and so far, so good. the place that sells it was not specifically specifically mentioned, like the source of the E66 was.

the next time i buy some, which will be fairly soon, i hope i remember to perform that test. in the meantime, i consider my not having to have my saw serviced since i started using it, as opposed to 3 times before that, to be a good sign.
 

HJF, Yes - no fun having some thing not run when you go to use it - I wish you continued good luck. As another test, if you do have problems - don't tell the mechanic you are using E-0 - just act dumb if asked. It will be interesting to see what is claimed as the problem...?

I serviced my leaf blower today - the fuel line was cracked and I replaced that, serviced the air filter and replaced the plug. Added fuel and it started up ran fine. In my folder, the purchase date was listed as 11/11/99. The fuel line is the first actual repair it has required.

Years ago I used the various products to stabilize the fuel. It seemed not to matter which product it was - the result was the same - no problems. One winter I forgot the treatments and in the spring I had the same results - no problems - every thing started. After that I started treating one chain saw but not the other - it just did not make a difference. Since then I have become a skeptic about the whole debate, perhaps you noticed.....?
 


i thank u - and i also hope that day never comes.

Since then I have become a skeptic about the whole debate, perhaps you noticed.....?
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maybe just a little ;)

in general, and particularly by the standards of this website, i suspect, i'm what's called, with varying degrees of endearment or contempt, a tree-hugger. i would love to be able to endorse the ethanol mandate, but it has become a tree i am unwilling to hug.
 
(quoted from post at 16:49:38 04/11/16) I have been keeping track of the mileage in my 09 Colorado 5 cylinder since day 1. First I ran E10 exclusively. Six months ago I switched to E15. I filled the tank twelve times with E15 during that time. I compared the mileage on E15 with the mileage running E10 twelve months before, during the winter, and there is no difference. Starting with the next fill up I will be running straight unleaded gasoline. I will post the results after a few tank fulls. I realize driving habits and possibly the tune of the engine change so the test is far from scientific. Also I don't know if the fuel I was using was exactly 10% or 15% alcohol at the pump. My old S10 showed no difference in mileage between E10 and regular. I have tried mileage comparisons between the two fuels with the 08 Toyota van on long trips but there were too many variables, mainly involving wind and terrain. Marilyn drives the van around home and I honestly don't know what she fills it with. The mileage always runs about the same with local driving.
LOL
Click to expand...

I have had the same experience. S10 (non flex fuel) showed no difference between E0 and E10. I have blended my own and have run up to E50 in it before the check engine light comes on for a lean code. No drop in mileage until about E30 or so. I have checked several vehicles including my motorcycle and there is not a measurable difference in mileage between E0 and E10, and in many cases you get a mileage increase around E20.
 
For the people that don't quite understand, there are no federal subsidies for ethanol. There are some credits for the gas stations, like Iowa gives you a nickle a gallon if you sell so much E10.

The other thing that people do not understand is that ethanol is the cheapest source of octane available today. If the RFS mandate disappeared, there would be very little difference in the amount of blending. Without ethanol, the oil companies would have to sell you real gasoline which costs $.50 or more per gallon more than ethanol and the 83 octane swill that they mix the ethanol with.

I believe most people's problems with E10 is the base stock gasoline is junk. But the oil companies will gladly keep blaming their problems on the ethanol.
 
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