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Technology seesm to be passing me by!!!

J

JD Seller

Well-known Member
I remember some older famers talking about how they never really liked the switch from horses to tractors. I often thought this was strange in that the amount of physical work was so greatly reduced. I am beginning to understand what they where talking about.

I am finding the advance of technology is leaving me behind. I can understand most mechanical systems. I also seem to really need to be able to visualize the system in my mind to really be able to work and repair it. I can't do this with the computerization that modern equipment has on it. I am not totally computer illiterate either, I just can't understand how they work at the deepest level.

So when I see posts like David G. electronically controlled fuel system for his MH 44, I feel a little lost. I know that my skill set is no longer up to date. That makes me uncomfortable.

I see many others on here talking about advanced electrical theories and my eyes just glaze over. It is beyond what I can comprehend. My sons are advancing the equipment we use on the farm with this technology. The GPS systems are formidable in what they can do. It makes the skill set needed to efficiently run the equipment be totally different. Being able to drive straight and gauge your distance is not worth much when the system can easily do that within inches automatically.

I have not ran either of the newer corn planters in the last three years because of this. I do not feel comfortable running them. This extends to the combines. Between the adjustments being electronic which depend on accepting the loss monitor's readings and then the auto steer systems I just do not like driving them. I have put less than ten hours in either of the JD 9660s.

I find that I am not comfortable running things that just take pushing some buttons to work without understanding what/how the system works. I can take a hydraulic system apart and repair it because I know how it is supposed to work. I can even look at a wiring diagram and understand electrical systems with just switches an circuits. I can not totally understand how computer LOGIC works. A CAN bus system is beyond me. Other than vaguely knowing what it is I could never repair or fix one. I have also found that I can not "learn" this type of stuff anymore. I have tried and I retain very little of it into long term understanding.

So I guess it is a good thing I do not have to depend on working with these systems to provide for myself. I would be pretty useless in most of these modern systems.

Am I an odd duck??? Is it just "age"??? I can see myself being the old fart cussing the automatic systems that he can't even use!!! LOL
 
Most people that get in their car have no clue what transpires to make it go. as long as it goes they are happy, if it breaks they get a new one or contact an expert. No different with a can buss system. I have a flip phone so technology not my strong suit either, but because of a severe neck injury i can drive the tractor or I can look at the planter but not both.

Lots of new stuff will be mandatory now or in near future. just like the replacement of the horse and air conditioning that is a necessity not a luxury.Paul
 
You're not alone! High tech stuff is nice WHEN it works, but I prefer simpler mechanical equipment. Case in point, I have two older injection test stands, one Bacharach and an old Woodring and Wise two cylinder test stand for the R, 70 and 80 series. Both work just fine as is, but not as fast as the newer Hartridge or Bosch machines I've run also. BUT, I can repair them and not cost five grand plus like the newer stands do when they get a hiccup. I don't have much faith in electrical stuff, especially when trying to repair an intermittent problem. Unless some component dies completely some problems are next to impossible to find.
 
You are not alone.Most guys(even if they wont admit) 'dislike' all the "new fangled" electronics.I am perfectly content and happy to run my 'old' 95 combine;1256;SuperM..... for the rest of my life.
 
Canbus is actually fairly easy to understand. It is just like a party line telephone system. Just replace all the old neighbors with a computer controller. And neither one of them work when Aunt Mildred gets in the mix!
 
I'm just getting fully up to speed with PFC hydraulics.

Simpler than a guy might think once you get your mind wrapped around it.
 
No doubt a lot of older guys share your opinion but I know a lot old "timers" using GPS and some of this new fangled machinery just fine. Also, you can add the GPS to older tractors that are not layered with all the fancy buttons and monitors. Plenty of guys around here running a simple Trimble 250 with an old Versatile 875 or whatever. Sometimes you just got to get past that road block in your head. Just this year I had one of my laptops completely crash. Usually I just take it to the local computer doctor but I decided this time to try to fix the computer myself. I am really computer illiterate but after a bunch of researching and reading I was able to do the repair myself while saving $70 and two trips to town. I do like the personal feel of the older machines too but I can't make a living farming a section of ground 1960s equipment. My dream is to just farm a half section with my JD 55 and Case 500. Wheat would have to be $20 or more for that to happen.
 
I am probably as computer savvy as anyone here.

I started programming in Basic Assembler Language in the old IBM 360 Mainframe computers in 1968.

I just happen to be one of the people that 'logic' comes to naturally, and even that 70 years old, the new tech just seems to come naturally to me.

That's not saying I'm any better than anyone else, because there are plenty of other things like welding that I don't/can't get a handle on.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. We just have to do the best we can with what we got.
 
No, you are not alone...

I get the same feeling about the machines at work, the CNC mills and lathes. I have no clue how to run one, but I can sure crash one! At the same time, the guys that run them have little success operating a Bridgeport or conventional lathe. Without close supervision, they will break tools, get themselves in a position to get hurt!

Seems it's a generational thing. Take the farmer that was uncomfortable switching from horses to tractors. He used what he knew. Felt right at home with horses, scared of tractors. I would have no clue how to raise, train, rig, or use a horse or mule! Frankly, they scare the daylights out of me! But I would not be afraid to figure out how to operate a tractor I was unfamiliar with. At least it will stop when I tell it to!

As far as the sophisticated electronics on the new equipment, us lay people are not intended to repair that stuff! It is constantly changing, intentionally designed with proprietary schematics, and requires special diagnostic equipment that is priced beyond the economic feasibility of the DIY'er. I hate that too, can't stand to have to subject myself to a shop that has the "we gotcha right where we want you" mentality!
 
This technology transition has been going on since the industrial revolution and it affects people in different ways depending on your schooling and age when encountering the change in needed skill sets. I started flying in 1968 and it came very easy to me during training and transitioning to bigger and faster airplanes. Kind of like sports where you feel comfortable doing anything involving a ball, well, except for golf and soccer. Anyhow, I flew for 37 years and never failed any test or evaluation and loved coming to work. In 2005, I had to transition to an aircraft with a "glass cockpit" (computer driven)flight system. Almost all of the training was done with automation via the three computers units, etc. Rather than manual flying with the pilot analyzing and directing the inputs, you had to type everything into the computers in a complicated and non-rational manner, kind of like writing software code. I could fly the airplane great if I could click off all the automation and hand fly the machine. I absolutely hated the training and flying the jet in automation mode. Took me a while to really get proficient but eventually I came to enjoy the additional safety associated with all the information and situation awareness it provided in compressed situations. The transition to "Glass: was painful and humbling, but I finally just decided to join the automation revolution but still hand fly some every flight. The airline industry is now worried that the young bucks who have been flying "glass" airplanes all their careers (Even Cessna 182's etc) are not proficient in hand flying when the automation goes bad. Several recent accidents have involved perfectly flyable aircraft where the crew crashed due to automation issues. Anyhow, that is a true story of an old fart having to reluctantly join the technology revolution.
 
I find I'm stuck on the fence regarding technology, I can see its benefits but at the same time I don't really care for it. For instance, I like that the newer electonic diesels will start much better without plugging them in, on the other hand there's a 12 valve cummins in the yard that is still going with 425k on the clock and when it had issues last year I was able to replace the fuel shut off solenoid that was anywhere from $200-600 with a choke cable. I won't be able to do that when a module fails on a computer controlled piece of gear.

When it comes to tractors I prefer things from the '50's when the gear shift still went straight into the transmission etc. I know the newer ones will do the same job (and sometimes faster, better, or with less effort) but there's something about the old ones that just keeps me going back. Sam
 
My boys assume EVERY car automatically turns off its headlights. Including Ol' Blue, my old '77 Chebby 4x4. They ALL do, don't they Pop???
 
In the 60's my Dad wasn't to keen on getting a tractor with hydraulics - said it was one more thing to break down.Are there any tractors today that don't use hydraulics for something?
 
Here's my take on this subject,I worked for a cutting tool company in the 1990s and was handed a laptop to use. I noticed one of the other guys was a real pro on the thing and he was older then me,(at that time I was in my early 50s). His statement was " no young guy is going to show me up". I have taken that attitude as my own.

In my shop I have cam driven single spindle screw machines (try finding someone to run those) and CNC machines as well. You need to understand the programming. I admit, servicing them is another story.
 
(quoted from post at 20:20:11 02/20/16) I remember some older famers talking about how they never really liked the switch from horses to tractors. I often thought this was strange in that the amount of physical work was so greatly reduced. I am beginning to understand what they where talking about.

I am finding the advance of technology is leaving me behind. I can understand most mechanical systems. I also seem to really need to be able to visualize the system in my mind to really be able to work and repair it. I can't do this with the computerization that modern equipment has on it. I am not totally computer illiterate either, I just can't understand how they work at the deepest level.

So when I see posts like David G. electronically controlled fuel system for his MH 44, I feel a little lost. I know that my skill set is no longer up to date. That makes me uncomfortable.

I see many others on here talking about advanced electrical theories and my eyes just glaze over. It is beyond what I can comprehend. My sons are advancing the equipment we use on the farm with this technology. The GPS systems are formidable in what they can do. It makes the skill set needed to efficiently run the equipment be totally different. Being able to drive straight and gauge your distance is not worth much when the system can easily do that within inches automatically.

I have not ran either of the newer corn planters in the last three years because of this. I do not feel comfortable running them. This extends to the combines. Between the adjustments being electronic which depend on accepting the loss monitor's readings and then the auto steer systems I just do not like driving them. I have put less than ten hours in either of the JD 9660s.

I find that I am not comfortable running things that just take pushing some buttons to work without understanding what/how the system works. I can take a hydraulic system apart and repair it because I know how it is supposed to work. I can even look at a wiring diagram and understand electrical systems with just switches an circuits. I can not totally understand how computer LOGIC works. A CAN bus system is beyond me. Other than vaguely knowing what it is I could never repair or fix one. I have also found that I can not "learn" this type of stuff anymore. I have tried and I retain very little of it into long term understanding.

So I guess it is a good thing I do not have to depend on working with these systems to provide for myself. I would be pretty useless in most of these modern systems.

Am I an odd duck??? Is it just "age"??? I can see myself being the old fart cussing the automatic systems that he can't even use!!! LOL
Click to expand...
You're not alone..i now know how my grandfather and father felt when they could not figure out the tv remote control. For them it represented "new fangled technology" with which they were not familiar with. We really do learn a lot quicker when young and new stuff ie easily absorbed.
 
CAN bus is now slowly being phased out. Lots of hype with the previous PCI bus. Seems like newer systems are mandated with our consumer drive for more electronics. Flexray is the latest and was developed with input from major players in the automotive field. It adds up to a big demand for younger technicians with an understanding of these complex systems. Some newer vehicles, I was told this past summer, have up to 22 modules all on one network. One of the most chilling codes a technician can get on a vehicle is a U code which refers to a bus problem. We don't just diagnose with a scan tool or diagnostic tool, we have to use a scope in many situations. We use the PICO for network communication problems.
 
My granddad went to auto mechanic school Kansas City in the 20's and by the early 40's said cars were getting to hard to work on and went to work pulling wrenches for a tractor dealership.
 
I agree. I took a mobility scooter with electrical problems to old friend George in terre haute to fix. An hour later he called
to say what it needed. HOWEVER I can wire a welder plug!!!!!!!!!!
 
Hi OldB, I am the same vintage as you. My biggest complaint with today's GUi(graphical user interface), is that the selection/input fields are all
over the place, there is no logical layout used. Back in the good old days of computers, when we automated a process to a computer controlled
process, we always worked with someone that had been doing the manual process for years and designed the computer screens to follow the
manual process that was in use. The new computer screen would start at upper left going to the right and then down in the same way the
manual process was performed. By automating the process in the same way as the manual process the learning curve and transition for
existing workers was mimimizsed.

But todays's GUI programmers just put selection/input fields all over the screen or on multiple screens with no logical flow to the inputs.

This type of programming can be related to JD and him finding it difficult to operate the new JD combines.
The writer of the combine software should have work with someone that had spent years manually operating a combine.

My rant for the day!
JimB
 
I have the utmost respect for you, and am in awe with your knowledge all of the time, come on over and I will train you on the other stuff.
 
I'm right there with you, JD Seller. I graduated from the U of Illinois in 1970 with a degree in Agriculture, major in Ag Mechanization, and thought I was pretty darn smart. The next 46 years pretty well disabused me of that notion. I talked to a young man from the area recently who is setting up a 32 row planter with more monitors on it than I can even imagine a use for. Yes, technology has left me behind,too. It was a fun ride, though!
 
(quoted from post at 10:34:23 02/21/16) Hi OldB, I am the same vintage as you. My biggest complaint with today's GUi(graphical user interface), is that the selection/input fields are all
over the place, there is no logical layout used. Back in the good old days of computers, when we automated a process to a computer controlled
process, we always worked with someone that had been doing the manual process for years and designed the computer screens to follow the
manual process that was in use. The new computer screen would start at upper left going to the right and then down in the same way the
manual process was performed. By automating the process in the same way as the manual process the learning curve and transition for
existing workers was mimimizsed.

But todays's GUI programmers just put selection/input fields all over the screen or on multiple screens with no logical flow to the inputs.

This type of programming can be related to JD and him finding it difficult to operate the new JD combines.
The writer of the combine software should have work with someone that had spent years manually operating a combine.

My rant for the day!
JimB
Click to expand...

So, I am one of those "young guys" in which this technology has evolved right with my growth. I started life on a simple dairy farm and it is still a simple dairy farm. I outgrew that and in high school started doing service work for dairy farms. They had the idea to use me to help with robotic milkers. That technology never took off in the volume they were expecting so I moved on to college and life.
I now do automation programming and full system set ups for large industrial plants. I think the one thing I have in my head that others in my position lack is the understanding of how to do it by hand. I program things so an Operator without any skills can follow the thought pattern. We get these machines that are programmed by some intern that played Xbox all day (or even worse, from Europe) and even for me it is quite frustrating! Automation is a great asset for the industrial world as it makes operations more efficient. The biggest issue I see with farming is, breakdowns or false issues have a huge impact when you're trying to plant / harvest in a very narrow window.
Back to that simple dairy farm. My dad will never own anything like that. I remember the first day he used the mouse on a computer. However, the family has recent accepted a program which monitors the herd and provides statistical analysis. To me that is a common sense application to use (heck I could program it) but to my dad it is vo-do. If you never "used it" its very hard to just suddenly "embrace it". My hats off to the older generation who have been able to catch on.
 
My tenant, back when I had a tenant, was so in love with his digital farming it was beyond annoying. The sprayer had sensors that measured the distance to the ground from the boom and the on board computer automatically raised and lowered...etc....etc. And that was just one piece of equipment. When the computer went south in the machine it cost him over $3000 just to replace the computer. Another thing many do not anticipate is "updates". It's not like windows where it updates for free. More like my tax software where I have to spend a lot of money on the update. He was starting to talk about that when I took over the place. So yes...give me a machine I can either fix myself or box up and send to a friend. :)
 
remember your first date? your first kiss?

how you had to learn how to touch?

It is the same way with these new smart phones.
 
I have worked in the two way radio and electronics field for over 40 years. A lot has changed in that amount of time and is changing even faster now or I am getting slower. I know of times before computers, cell phones, and GPS. Some good improvements some not so good. I knew when personal computers came out that it was going to be big. I have some Radio Shack model 1,4s. I tried to keep up with the technology but was left behind. I just try to keep up enough to do my programming and that is all. I live just south of the black dirt in central IL. The BTOs are moving into our small fields thanks to big equipment, chemicals and electronics. The not so good for my family. We have several customers that farm 5 to 60 thousand acres. I still can't see the economics in all the technology. JD has changed their RTK here and not going to support 900mhz so everyone is going to spend $3000 per unit to change. The 400mhz they changed to is bad for the radio end for us. Next year it will be something else. Son is trying to get started farming with a IH 1466. Can't find farm ground. Equipment is cheap. Looks like his overhead would be small compared to the BTOs. Won't be long, when you buy new equipment, you will have a personal tech assigned to your equipment. I can ramble on forever. Technology has been good for me in my employment but I am looking forward to retiring to a low tech low stress job. Let someone else fight it if they can. Yes I can be replaced.
 
I run brand new, computer controlled, equipment all day. I also get to troubleshoot and fix the fact equipment when it stops working. After combing through miles of wiring and circuits, I enjoy coming home to the simplicity of my 60 year old tractor with less than a dozen wires. It is a nice escape.
 
Yes same way here JD I never really progressed to the computer systems on cars. Remember old guys telling stuff like when steam power went out or the chainsaw vrs the axe.
 

I don't think it has anything to do with age - I got a 4 year degree in computer science at age 45. I can take a logic truth table and design the circuit to implement it, but that is not the point.

I firmly believe that mastering computer controlled systems can be thought of as similar to flying a helicopter. When you fly a helicopter you do not have time to think about the mechanics - the swashplate pushing the rotor blades depending on how you are using the cyclic vs. the collective. A guy I trust a great deal advises his students to never think about all that - he tells to think of it as "magic" and learn to work with the results, not how the results are derived.

I think you can do the same with the electronic controls on machinery. Quit thinking about the logic, binary, or how it all works. Just trust that the under the hood stuff will work and deal with the results of the action you take. It will clear your mind and let you work with the system.

As far as repairing them, forget about understand how to diagnose a module - that is left to those trained for it - and concentrate on operation, trusting that many repairs will need to be done by someone else. And - the repairmen for the computer may not even be able to operate the whole machine - different skills. It is like not having to understand foundry work to operate something made of cast iron.
 

I'm not afraid of new technology and I'm always curious about the newest gimmic. What gets gets me unwound real fast is the clunky ways of getting around in the menus of the ag electronics in our machines. Why can't they offer one single programming page where all of the information can be entered instead of going to this page and entering a little information, then going to another segment to get to another page to enter a little more. If you want to change some stats you have to go through the right segment to get to another segment to get to the page you want. The weather is good, rain is in the forecast and I'm sitting on the end of the field unable to get into the proper segment of the monitor to make a change so the planter will start planting when forward motion starts. Grrrrrrr! once everything is set, planting is like a dream, getting through a clunky menu is a nightmare.
 
Hi Fixxerupper,
I totally agree with you. See my posts and StrikeForce's posts below. They do not appear to teach logicalical thinking anymore. But again
before you can make a good computer interface you have to understand the manual process.

JimB
 
Work with what you can use well. If your sons and grandsons are comfortable with new technologies, let them test them and fine tune them before you adapt them. Back in the day we all did the same thing for our dads and grandfathers.
 
Very interesting topic and worth reading every entry. I must keep ahead of the technology in some places and ignore, but use it in others. Shrinking of electronic components, to the limits of relativistic/quantum physics, has ruled out fixing circuits by soldering. Modularization of electronics, and encapsulation of components means replacing chunks of still good components that are fabricated with the broken parts. We can learn what we need to know to stay operational. I end up teaching things from the foundations of understanding and the old thinking because the building of understanding has to be from a foundation rather than built in the air. I also believe it takes a set of wrenches to fix a Ujoint. Jim
 
JD...I understand your frustration, but I think if you were immersed in this technology, you could learn it. Would it come easy, no, because as we age (50's and up) our retension is challenged. Repetition is critical. I too struggle with learning the new stuff and I used to build my own computers from components and software, which I would optimize to my needs. To be immersed is difficult because the young ones here enjoy all this high-tech stuff, so my seat time is very limited. I do run one of our Krone choppers and have learned with enough "experimentation", I can muddle my way through the tech end enough to be somewhat good with the user preferences on the machine. It helps to be able to make a quick call to my nephew, who has setup the whole custom end of the business, and ask for help. I have read many of your posts and replies over the years, your " gray matter" is highly functional. I think the biggest obstacle in learning new technology as we reach our "golden years" comes from the lack of drive, atleast for me.
 

JimB2 I went back and read your post and you said it better than I did. Thank you for an explanation from the other side. My version came from the way the user's tired brain processes it when under stress. LOL
 
At some 15 years older than you I can only empathize with you. JD you do a great job articulating your thoughts and excel at verbal/written communications. A skill set that never goes obsolete.
 
(quoted from post at 10:03:01 02/21/16)
I'm not afraid of new technology and I'm always curious about the newest gimmic. What gets gets me unwound real fast is the clunky ways of getting around in the menus of the ag electronics in our machines. Why can't they offer one single programming page where all of the information can be entered instead of going to this page and entering a little information, then going to another segment to get to another page to enter a little more. If you want to change some stats you have to go through the right segment to get to another segment to get to the page you want. The weather is good, rain is in the forecast and I'm sitting on the end of the field unable to get into the proper segment of the monitor to make a change so the planter will start planting when forward motion starts. Grrrrrrr! once everything is set, planting is like a dream, getting through a clunky menu is a nightmare.
Click to expand...
No, set the drill opening, and when you pull the trip rope and engage the clutch the drill will start planting all on it's own. Just paint one side of the square shaft so you can see that it's turning through the dust. Ummm, no hydraulics on my Van Brunt, either.
 
Yep it's left me behind too. But these are some fascinating times. I remember hearing my grandparents telling about all the new fangled gadgets that came about in their lifetime, electric lights, automobiles, airplanes and space travel. We are living in some times that is comparable if not more fantastic.

A while back I was going through some old Mechanic Illustrated magazines that I had kept from in the mid 80's. They were telling about this new technology that was about to explode called the world wide web :lol: It sounded pretty far fetched.

For an old geezer like me, I still like the older stuff but I can understand why some of the newer stuff might be better and in a few years it will probably be cheaper. Just last month I bought a 43" HD "smart TV" that can do a lot more than I'm smart enough to figure out. I gave less for it than I gave for a 25" TV 35 years ago. Who would have thought that you could put the information from a 5000 page service manual on a piece of plastic the size of a stick of gum or smaller.

For a young person with the aptitude for electronics the sky is the limit and that may be too conservative.
 
And that information on a piece of plastic,, they will find a way to make it so it will no longer be avaible 10 years from now, print on paper will still be readable 500 years from now.
 
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