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OT Gun Carry Question

S

Steve@Advance

Well-known Member
The post below about the CCW/medical marijuana got me to thinking...

I have a situation, I recently sold gun to a lady friend of my wife's.

She had moved to a new town, bought a low budget house in a low income neighborhood. She had mentioned to
my wife that she was afraid living there alone, wanted to buy a gun, and knew I had one for sale. I was
skeptical, this lady was not real stable.

Soon after moving in, the house was burglarized while she was home! They never threatened her, but didn't
seem too concerned there was someone there. They did leave quickly once she let them know she was home.

Justifiably, that intensified the desire to have some protection, so I gave in and sold her the gun. I made
her promise to go get a permit to carry, which she agreed to do.

A few days later, she was burglarized again! Different person, again he ran when she started calling out
her son's name, even though he wasn't there. For whatever reason, she didn't try to use the gun, probably
too scared to even think about it!

But this time he got her purse, with her check book in it. She closed the bank account before I cashed the
check, so I never got paid for the gun. That's not really a concern, I had nothing in it, so I've never
even brought it up to her.

That's when things got bad. She lost her job, had a falling out with her deadbeat son and girlfriend,
wrecked her car, broken ankle, etc. Had an understandable bout of depression, made a feeble attempt at
suicide with an overdose of pain meds. Ended up in a lockdown institution for a week.

Here's my concern. I now know I should have never given her the gun. With this suicide attempt, there is no
way she can get a permit! Besides, she doesn't have the money to even try to get permitted. I would feel
terrible if she did something stupid with the gun I provided! I don't think there would be any legal
repercussions against me, the gun was legal but not registered to me, it was my late fathers.

Should I try to get it back from her? Let it be? I don't want to cause her any more problems or upset her,
but I am concerned with this.

Any suggestions? Thanks!
 

I would talk with her (VERY gently) and volunteer to take the gun back in exchange for forgetting about the check ...... might work. 8)
 
Your asking if you should make sure a mentally unstable person should NOT have a firearm in her possession, that you provided??????? Get the DARN gun back tonight!!!! How would you feel if she shots herself??? Even worse shoots some one else that is innocent???

Steve I really do not want to come down on you but responsible gun ownership does not just mean what you do with a weapon. It also means what you ALLOW or encourage to happen with your guns.

I also would not be so sure of want your legal exposure is. That depends on what state you live in. If I where the attorney of anyone that gets hurt with that gun, I sure would include you in any legal action I would take. The fact it was registered to your Father does not make it any better.

Actions like this is what give the anti gun people ammunition against the responsible gun owners. Steve your NOT a responsible gun owner by allowing this to happen to a weapon/gun you own.
 
" the gun was legal but not registered to me"

Do you live in a state where guns are registered to you or suppose to be? I wouldn't sweat it but if you were that concerned maybe you should try to get the gun back since she technically has not paid you for it yet. Also what does a permit have to do with keeping a gun in your house or did you just want her to have one or is this a requirement?
 
It probably depends on what state you live in as to whether you have any legal jeapordy, you would not have any in my state even if she shot the Govenor with the gun because you can sell to a private party with no background check. From the description you gave of her, her neighborhood and her kin folks it sounds like anyone she might shoot needs it so I would not worry about that either, maybe she will reduce the welfare and disability rolls by a digit or two.
 
You broke the law selling the gun without having a permit get it back before its found in her possession now if not rite away and never sell aagain without a permit to buy unless you want the feds locking you up I thought everyone knew the fact you need a permit to buy where have you been.
 
I am surprised that they didn't take the gun away from her if they knew she had one. If you try to attempt suicide you are classified as mentally unstable and can not possess a fire arm. I would do what someone else said and ask her nicely if you could have it back and she won't have to pay you.
 
It might depend on where you live. Here in Indiana there is no permit on the guns. The gun carry permit is on you not the gun you can carry what ever gun or guns you want with that permit.
 
Well Steve, as someone else mentioned, you might very nicely and gently offer to take the firearm back. If that doesn't work, you could give one of her neighbors $100 to break in and steal it for you, although that might then cost you a few more $100 to get it back from them.

Realistically speaking, you should have taken the receipt for the firearm that I'm sure that you are still in possession of, gone through an FFL (Federal Firearms Licensed) dealer and TRANSFERRED legal possession from yourself to herself, period. Might have cost you or her $20, maybe $50, whatever that specific dealer charges, and you might still try talking her into it, even if you have to pay the $20 or $50 out of your pocket. If she can pass the FBI instant back ground check, they will legally transfer the firearm to her name. If she can't or doesn't pass the back ground check, since you have the receipt and the firearm is legally yours, they will hand the firearm back to you, not her. You said that her home has been burglarized multiple times, and I would expect it to happen again. There IS a firearm in that residence that as far as everyone is concerned, IS yours. If it is stolen and used in a crime, found, whatever, some people are going to come visit you asking questions that you will NOT have valid answers to, and you're going to be on the hook. She might be as well, but you WILL be on the hook.

I live in Indiana and we do NOT register firearms here, BUT depending upon how old the firearm is and when it was purchased, if there exists a RECORD of ownership, then that's where its going to come back. Recently, I gave a sister a sidearm and one to a niece as well, both family members, perfectly legal to do. BUT all records showed them as mine, legally. I thought about it, talked to them both, met them at a local FFL, I paid the $20 fee (what he charged to do the paperwork), they went through and passed the instant back ground checks, and the FFL transferred legal ownership from me to them, through him (legal record). DONE. You need to either do the same, or get the firearm back.

Mark
 
Lots of misinformation there. The feds won't come knocking for private gun sales. Gun transfers and permits are done at the state level, not federal.
 
Look keep it simple, she needs money, you want your gun back. Offer to "buy it back" even though she never paid you for it. Do this before she sells it to someone else.
 
(quoted from post at 03:48:41 02/20/16) You broke the law selling the gun without having a permit get it back before its found in her possession now if not rite away and never sell aagain without a permit to buy unless you want the feds locking you up I thought everyone knew the fact you need a permit to buy where have you been.
Click to expand...

State laws vary and the Feds have nothing to do with it. MAny stat
 
(quoted from post at 09:37:23 02/20/16) Look keep it simple, she needs money, you want your gun back. Offer to "buy it back" even though she never paid you for it. Do this before she sells it to someone else.
Click to expand...

Probably the best way to handle it.
 
I don't know the legal situation you are in, I don't need to know. A person with mental issues who has attempted suicide should not have a gun in their possession. It sounds like she has many areas of her life that could use some help.

I do not know her, or anyone involved so I cannot say how I would handle the scenario. Maybe you could help her move some new lodgings and offer to hold the gun for her, or something along those lines. Maybe you just suggest she give it back since she hasn't paid for it. Maybe your wife can get it back. Maybe you need to talk to the Sheriff and explain the situation and ask for help. There are lots of ways to get the right thing done. I'm sorry you have been thrust into this scenario.
 
Steve, I live in Indiana and have a lifetime carry permit myself, but to answer your question WITHOUT RESEARCING YOUR STATES LAWS (If in any doubt whatsoever consult local professional attorneys and for something as serious as this DO NOT hang you hat or gamble your and future on lay opinions)

MY BEST UNRESEARCHED LEGAL ADVICE WOULD BE TO GET THE GUN BACK and get whatever documentation and evidence and a paper trail you can to memorialize such.

John T, BSEE JD Attorney at Law
 
"[b:654c4848f0][i:654c4848f0]She closed the bank account before I cashed the check, so I never got paid for the gun.[/i:654c4848f0][/b:654c4848f0]"

You might consider presenting her with the "account closed" check.

Ask her politely to either redeem the check with cash or return your father's hand gun.

Don't leave without the cash or the gun.

Nothing personal - strictly business.
 
Might (and I stress "might") be best to deny any knowledge of it. Technically when the registered owner of a gun dies so does the paper trail. There is nothing but "he said, she said" that ties you to the gun. The last "legal" owner can't be questioned however it is a bit close to you.
 
You should start with a conversation with a lawyer in your area who is aware with local laws and regulations. Your backside could be in serious jeopardy if anything goes down.
 
Dzc3 has probably the best idea I think. As far as the unstable part, nobody knows what someone will do tomorrow. How many times do we hear on the news "that's the last person I would have thought would do that". Some people seem "off" but most will never do anything bad. I would question her lack of willingness to use it, not saying she should be blowing holes in anything that moves, but not pulling it and confronting the burglars. If she shows an attempt to use it then the trouble would most likely stop. Since she doesn't think of using it maybe she should get rid of it. Grandpa told me as a kid "never pull a gun on someone, but if you do shoot em". Or something to that effect. If she were to pull the gun on someone with no intent of using it then she runs a risk of having it used in her.
 
How about offer to buy the gun back from her? I know she didn't actually pay for it, but it sounds like that gun is in a place where nothing good can possibly happen, and if something goes really wrong,you may have to live with it for a long time. For me I would consider it a personal penalty for not thinking things through in the beginning. It also sounds like she could use an act of kindness more than a gun. Mike
 
Well it's too late now as you plastered it all over the internet.
But in case anyone comes poking around asking about guns. I sold all mine taking advantage of the gun show loop hole. That is what you tell them.
 
That's what I was going to suggest. Ask her for the gun back since she never paid for it.
 
Isn't against the 2nd Amendment to deny gun ownership to anyone, anywhere or anytime for any reason, legal or illegal?? LOL!!
 
I cannot see how you can be so casual about a gun.
As has already been posted, if that gun is used in a crime, they will be coming to talk to you. The paper trail does not end with your late father. It continues on to next of kin. After all, the gun did not evaporate when your father passed away, did it???
This unstable woman is in possession of a deadly weapon that can be traced back to YOU! Do you really want to carry that burden? And hope that her deadbeat son and his girlfriend do not get possession of it? And then go out and play Bonnie and Clyde with it???

I strongly suggest that you repossess that gun. With the help of the sheriff or local gendarmes. Or even state police if necessary. Never mind permits, FFLs, transfer of ownership, or any of the rest. GET THE GUN!!!
 
Thanks everyone, the verdict seems to be "get the gun back" which I hope to do.

This will have to be handled very gently. We have helped this lady many times, financially, moving, home repairs, etc. My wife ministers to her regularly. She's having plumbing problems, and as soon as I can get over there, (which is about 70 miles away), I'm going to try some negotiations.

I live in Texas, which has very lenient gun laws. I don't know where my dad bought or traded for the gun, it's been around since the early 70's. Probably no record of it. The reason I wanted her to get a permit was the permitting process requires some classroom time along with actually having to fire the weapon under supervision.

I'm going to have my wife start asking her for it, that would fly better than me going to her. It's going to be touchy though, just pray nothing happens! She seems to have settled down now, has a new job. The trip to the lockdown was an eye opener, she doesn't want to go there again!

Thanks!
 
No. no. no. Pop could have sold it. He may have lost it. It may have been stolen from him. There is noproof he had it when he died. Nor is there any he gave it to anyone. The gun DID evaporate legally when Pop died. I also doubt there was a paper trail tying the gun to him.
I wouldn't get the police invoved at this point.
Why not mention that you need either the money or the gun back. If she does come with the money insist she bring the gun over so you can "record the serial number". Then just take the gun and tell her you changed your mind.
 
Where else would the gun logically go??
Take a closer look. EVERY hand gun legally manufactured is registered with the federal government. The manufacturer is required by law to keep a record of who the gun was sold to. This is federal law as I understand it. To legally transfer gun ownership requires filling out proper forms by a FFL and submitting that information to the entity that keeps the records. GUNS ARE TRACEABLE!!
Just because the father - apparently the legal registered owner of the gun - passed away, the gun did not disappear into thin air. If the gun were to be used in a crime, the BATF would likely come looking to find out where it went after the father's passing. That would logically fall to the next of kin. Certainly, if I were an agent looking for a missing gun, that is where I would start. I would also expect the next of kin to be able to provide a chain of custody on that weapon.
I take gun ownership very seriously. Lax state laws do not relieve one of the responsibility to treat a weapon correctly as to custody of that weapon.
It is exactly this casual attitude towards deadly weapons that has the liberals screaming for more gun laws and more gun control.
Don't get me wrong - I own several guns, I used to do quite a bit of target and sport shooting, and I would not want to lose my right to own a gun.
 
I would guess you live in PA. where the gun laws are excessive but in Louisiana a private seller is under no restriction to perform a background check on the purchaser, the age limit is 18 to buy a firearm but no age limit to own a long gun but 17 is the minimum age to own a pistol. The poster stated he lives in Texas and Texas does not require private sellers to perform background checks either. If you believe that liberals only want strict enforcement of the law you are delusional, liberals want to tell everyone else what to do and how to live, period, appeasement has never worked against any enemy and liberals are enemies of freedom. I have bought several female family members pistols and I hope they use them with deadly force if given the chance by a criminal, I always tell them to make sure they kill whoever they shoot, then there is only one side of the story to tell.
 
I guess I am mistaken but I thought it was unlawful for the government to keep permanent records on gun ownership. I wouldn't worry about it personally. There are a lot of guns in the homes of widows who may or may not know how to use them. The vast majority have never taken a firearms class or possibly never shot them. In this state you can give a gun away or sell it without any type of documentation as part of a private transaction. The concern here seems to be what if something bad happens because she has your gun. My thought is what if something good happens because she was armed and she saved her life or someone else life? If really concerned tell her you will teach her to use it responsibly and if she wont agree to that insist she return it.
 

From : Law Center To Prevent Gun Violence
Texas penal code 46.06
Private Sales in Texas

Posted on Friday, August 14th, 2015


See our Private Sales policy summary for a comprehensive discussion of this issue.

Texas has no law requiring a background check on the purchaser of a firearm when the seller is not a licensed dealer. Texas law does, however, state that a person commits a Class A misdemeanor if he or she:
•Sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to any person knowing that the person to whom the handgun is to be delivered intends to use it unlawfully or in the commission of an unlawful act;
•Intentionally or knowingly sells, rents, leases, or gives or offers to sell, rent, lease, or give a firearm to any child younger than age 18. It is an affirmative defense to this charge that the transfer was to a minor whose parent or legal custodian had given written permission for the sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale, the parent or legal custodian had given effective consent. This offense rises to the level of a “state jail felony” (the lowest class of felony under state law) if the firearm involved is a handgun;
•Intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly sells a firearm or ammunition to any person who is intoxicated;
•Knowingly sells a firearm or ammunition to any person who has been convicted of a felony before the fifth anniversary of the later of: 1) the person’s release from confinement following conviction of the felony; or 2) the person’s release from supervision under community supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision following conviction of the felony;
•Sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to any person knowing that an active protective order is directed to the person to whom the handgun is to be delivered

Don't know if this totally current, but all that I found.
ETxJohn
 

Seems like the OP is in the clear, in TX, in that the lady's current situation didn't exist when the gun was transferred. It sounds like many here are projecting their own state's restrictive gun laws on a situation where they just don't apply. I don't believe in Ohio that we have restrictions on private transfers. Might in some cities here where liberals hold sway however.

I'll just echo the thoughts here for the OP, get the gun back, somehow before there is some grief for her situation worse that what is going on now.
 

In addition for Ohio, new less restrictive gun laws went into effect on Jan. 1, 2016. nnalert governor and nnalert majority legislators here.....

A new state law effective today will allow hunters to use suppressors on guns; permit Ohioans to buy rifles, shotguns and ammunition from any state; and implement a more-rigorous background check for concealed-carry permits.

It also reduces the training required to get one of those permits from 12 hours to eight, including some of it online for the first time; changes the definition of an “automatic” weapon; and makes concealed-carry permits issued from other states valid in Ohio, even without a reciprocity agreement.
 
[i:654c4848f0]To legally transfer gun ownership requires filling out proper forms by a FFL and submitting that information to the entity that keeps the records.[/i:654c4848f0]

In PA maybe. Out here in America it works a little differently. OP is from Texas.

What other "property" that you "buy" do you need to keep track of after you "sell" it? If you sell me a screwdriver or a power saw do we have to register the transfer?
 
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