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Wiring a plug for a welder

Z

Zachary Hoyt

Well-known Member
I am hoping that someone wise will be able to tell me what I need to do to run a wire about 80 feet indoors to the new building to run a stick 'tombstone' welder out there. I got the 110 wiring done in December and that was no problem. The welder hookup is something new for me and I want to find out how to do it right so I don't tick off the electrons and cause a riot in there. I have four of these plugs that I got in a box lot at an auction at some point. They are marked 50 amp and look like they would fit the welder plug. They only have 3 connectors, so I am wondering if all I need is to run a 6/2 with ground cable like the one in the link on eBay out there and hook them up, the top two to the breaker poles and the bottom one to the neutral bar. If I need to I can buy 6/3 but I would rather save the money if I don't have a job for that fourth wire. Any advice will be much appreciated.
Zach
a214499.jpg

6/2 with ground 100
 
the top two are the 110v hots. the center one is the ground. no neutral is used. least thats the way it was in the olden days.
 
If that's what you have it will work fine. Welders used to use those ends. I think they're 125/250 V. More recently they used the 250V, with totally different configuration.

And yes, two wires with ground is what you need. I suppose you should be going to the ground bar, not the neutral bar. Is this service sub/service new enough that the neutral and ground are separated?

This should get some excitement going on here!
 
Thank you all very much. I didn't realize the silver one went to the ground and not the neutral. The whole wiring system was put in about 22 years ago when the barn we live in was originally converted from animal to people space, so the ground and neutral are separate as far as I can recall. I haven't had the cover off in a while.
Zach
 
That's the way mine is hooked up. Hots to the brass and ground to the silver. Same plug.
 
Don't think you'll find a separate ground and neutral bar in your breaker box. Ground goes to the neutral. Neutral should be grounded. When you look in your breaker box you'll see all the 110v white wires and bare wires tied to the same bus, neutral.
 
Many people get very confused by this, and so it is hard to depend upon Internet advice about wiring....

There were two or three good electricians that would post here, but I think they have all gone very low key the past few months, as they get overwhelmed with the 'just wire it up any old way so it works, that will be good enough' crowd that offers opinions on this topic......

The ground wire is there to protect you and to protect your wires and your buildings from bad things happening.

Many years ago they often kinda rolled the ground and the neutral into the same wire, or criss crossed them any old time.

After some thought on it, they realized that wasn't a good idea.

The neutral wire carries away electricity in 120v wiring. So that wire is actually live.

The ground wire is only there to protect you, and it is wired up to nearly every exposed metal surface anywhere in your building.

So, if you mix up and tie together the ground and the neutral wires, you end up potentially supplying live electricity to all your metal surfaces all over your building.

And heck that will work fine, so long as the wires don't fall apart. Because the ground wire will end up taking over and do the job for you.

Unless there is a problem....... You never know when a problem shows up.......

So, anyhow, you don't need a neutral wire here at all, so no big deal. Neutral is only for 120v stuff.

Hook to live, live, and ground.

Paul
 
I have three Lincoln's and they came from Lincoln with Nema 6-50p plugs and take a Nema 6-50r recepticals. Not what is shown in the picture.
 
I've got a still-working WWII era Lincoln with that plug on it and as far as I can tell is factory. Standards most likely have changed over the past 70 years.
 
AS USUAL, Electrical or Legal questions get more opinions and response then any other questions posted here, drawing everyone including myself out of the woodwork, including Billy Bob and Bubba lol

HERES THE DEAL IFFFFFFFFFFFf your welder is straight 240 volt with NOOOOOOO 120 VAC, as typical for a ton of those old 240 VAC buzz box Lincoln and other welders out there..

The two hot ungrounded 240 VAC line to line conductors (often red and black) connect to the 2 side terminals

HOWEVER THE (often Green/Bare) SAFETY EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR IS THE THIRD TERMINAL which connects to the Equipment Ground Buss (where Greens and Bares attach) in your 120/240 Volt Single Phase Three Wire Panel and NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT I repeat NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT the Neutral Buss (where whites connect)

NOTE if your panel is indeed a sub panel served by your homes main panel and was wired per the latest NEC ???? (I have no idea) it will have separate and isolated Neutral and Ground Busses, UNLIKE the main panel in which Neutral is bonded to Ground.

BUT THE WELDERS CASE FRAME (if its straight 240 no 120) is bonded to the safety third wire green/bare equipment grounding conductor which you wire to the Ground Buss in your sub panel NOTTTTTTTTTTTT the Neutral

NOTE I have no way sitting here knowing what plug or receptacle your welder uses so I cant comment on that, so I'm ONLY saying how typical old buzz box straight 240 VAC with NO 120 Welders are wired and that third bare/green safety equipment grounding conductor connects to GROUND in the panel and nottttttttttttttttttt Neutral

If in doubt consult a local competent trained professional electrician and local authority and take their advice versus any of us (me included) who aren't there in person to make an inspection.

John T Retired AC Power Distribution Electrical Engineer
 
My old Lincoln 180 amp had a 120 volt fan hooked to the neutral. I know this is true as one of my foremen educated in electrical pointed this out. Experimented if fan was 220. It was not. This welder was new in 1952. Yes John T and B&D you are correct, just saying 66 years ago some things were not as safe.
 
I just had a Lincoln 225 apart for cleaning. It is 220 only. The ground wire is bonded to the case. The fan has a 220 motor. Mine was frozen up. I have a new one coming from
Amazon for about $26. Mine is wired with the same plug as you propose with ground only. It works fine. (Bubba)
As an interesting sidenote. There was a thread on welding web about the Lincoln Tombstone welders. The flat top Lincolns could be called Tombstones but to the purists the Round top Lincoln AC DC is the true Tombstone and the flat tops are " buzz boxes". It is all just common usage,Lincoln never called them that
 
No big deal, just saying I have one that is 43 years old, one 18 years old and one 17 years old and all three came from the factory with 6-50 plugs not 10-50
 
(quoted from post at 19:38:45 02/09/16) So what's the big deal? All they do is transfer electricity.
Click to expand...
I'm with you! He has the welder & he has the plug. Surely he is smart enough to see it they will plug together? Further for all the respondents, why on Earth would you think that ALL Lincoln welders always used the same plug???? Some people seem to have mouth in motion before mind in gear. :roll:
 

John, any chance you could link to pic showing a box with a separate ground and neutral bus in use? I'm having a hard time grasping the difference between neutral and ground. I've looked at a lot of boxes and even the high dollar professional installations I've never seen white wires to one bus and copper to another- ever. I guess I don't need a picture, I just don't get how neutral and ground differ.
 
(quoted from post at 08:53:39 02/10/16)
John, any chance you could link to pic showing a box with a separate ground and neutral bus in use? I'm having a hard time grasping the difference between neutral and ground. I've looked at a lot of boxes and even the high dollar professional installations I've never seen white wires to one bus and copper to another- ever. I guess I don't need a picture, I just don't get how neutral and ground differ.
Click to expand...

I'll explain it again .
However no matter what electrical engineers , electrical inspectors, law makers and knowledgable electricians understand about electricity . There is always some jackleg electricians that think they are smarter and know more than the fore mentioned persons.
The jacklegs are pretty quick to tell you if they manage to get something to work. However they don't talk about shocks , fires, burned out equipment, smoke and non working equipment .
The jacklegs are lothe to admit they don't know and they don't want to learn either .

Neutral is an insulated load current carrying conductor . Returning load current from either Line 1 or Line 2 back to the Center tap on a single phase utility transformer .
On a three phase Y transformer, the neutral carries load current back to the Center point . From loaded supplied from phase 1 , phase 2 or phase 3. Note the use of "phase" instead of "line ".
The ground system is not a load current carrying system. Usually is not insulated either . The ground system is to hold anything connected to the ground system as close as possible to "ground or earth" potential/voltage . Metallic items such as motor housings , electrical cabinets, water pipes, milking equipment etc.
That is also why there is a ground bond to neutral to HOLD the neutral conductor's potential down to ground/earth potential.
If somebody tells you that the ground system is supposed to carry load current . And if they won't change thier minds when told otherwise. Note the moment because you have just been talking to a fool. Walk away and disregard what ever they had to say.
 
(quoted from post at 08:53:39 02/10/16)
John, any chance you could link to pic showing a box with a separate ground and neutral bus in use? I'm having a hard time grasping the difference between neutral and ground. I've looked at a lot of boxes and even the high dollar professional installations I've never seen white wires to one bus and copper to another- ever. I guess I don't need a picture, I just don't get how neutral and ground differ.
Click to expand...
here required to keep ground buss & neutral separate, the left most ground buss in the panel pictured will be grounded/bonded to the panel. The right most neutral buss would NOT be bonded to the panel (neutral isolated from panel). That would not be the case for a service entrance panel. But would be for a second panel fed from the first, where serving a separate out building.

http://www.dwellingdiagnostics.com/images/photos/electric_2full.png
 
Bret, don't feel bad, many who aren't electricians or engineers don't get the difference in Ground and Neutral either. However its ONLY in the main distribution panels where a single buss can be BOTH for Neutrals and Grounds or there may be two tied together with a tie bar. But in a sub panel served by a main that's where they must be separate and isolated.

Neutral is an insulated live grounded current carrying conductor to carry normal return current. The bare equipment ground is designed to carry fault current ONLY and is attached to the outer metal case/cover/frame of tools or appliances.

Be careful when non electricians Billy Bob and Bubba try to explain all this lol

John T Retired Power Distribution Electrical Engineer
 
Some good info here, but just to expand a little"

That recept is a 10-50. If you look it up you'll find the description is a 50a 120/240 UNGROUNDED plug/recpt. That means that two pins are 120each and one is a neutral, not ground. It can be used to feed both 120 and 240 loads in one unit.

Your welder has no need for 120 but your safety has a need for a ground.

will it work if the neutral pin is wired to the ground ON BOTH ENDS? Sure will. But a future user who doesn't know that recpt is wired in a nonstandard fashion could be in for a surprise (shock??).
Here is a link to a chart:
http://www.stayonline.com/reference-nema-straight-blade.aspx
All grounded units have a ground pin shaped differently than the current carrying ones.

If it were mine, I'd spring for the correct items(6-50p). As a matter of fact, I just removed one just like it that had been installed in my shop in '67. Worked fine all those years, but I was moving some stuff and decided to make it 'by the book'. One day, my grandsons will be using the shop and I'd like not to be responsible to any harm to those guys.
 
(quoted from post at 23:18:44 02/10/16) Bret, don't feel bad, many who aren't electricians or engineers don't get the difference in Ground and Neutral either. However its ONLY in the main distribution panels where a single buss can be BOTH for Neutrals and Grounds or there may be two tied together with a tie bar. But in a sub panel served by a main that's where they must be separate and isolated.

Neutral is an insulated live grounded current carrying conductor to carry normal return current. The bare equipment ground is designed to carry fault current ONLY and is attached to the outer metal case/cover/frame of tools or appliances.

Be careful when non electricians Billy Bob and Bubba try to explain all this lol

John T Retired Power Distribution Electrical Engineer
Click to expand...

Okay, ground get- it goes to GROUND, as in the ground rods. But isn't your neutral, which as shown in the picture in the post below yours, going back to ground in the entrance panel? I get that in a 115vac the white and bare wires are both going to ground/neutral and completing the circuit, but how do they, ground and neutral, differ if they both go back to the same ground buss/rods at the main panel/entrance?
 

Just like we said before . Ground system is to hold anything connected to it to near earth potential.not to carry neutral current.
We want the insulated load current carrying conductor to have near zero potential vs earth.
So we bond the neutral to earth in one place at the service
.
Is the cold water tap in your home the same is the hot water tap? It's connected back to the same well.
 
(quoted from post at 12:57:29 02/12/16) Maybe a cartoon would help Bret picture it in his mind.
Click to expand...


In the 2nd pic aren't you switching ground and neutral?

I get that neutral is the I'm missing the "potential" thing B+D mentioned...maybe.
 
(quoted from post at 15:15:14 02/12/16)
(quoted from post at 12:57:29 02/12/16) Maybe a cartoon would help Bret picture it in his mind.
Click to expand...


In the 2nd pic aren't you switching ground and neutral?

I get that neutral is the I'm missing the "potential" thing B+D mentioned...maybe.
Click to expand...
wrote on the cartoon, that the neutral & ground are tied together at the motor (incorrect & a no! no!). The result is that load current is now flowing in the now-paralled neutral & ground, so whatever voltage drop occurs in those wires will raise the motor & drill cases to that potential, thus presenting a shock hazard. No reversing/swapping involved. I guess a picture isn't worth a thousand words after all?
 
(quoted from post at 17:13:13 02/12/16)
(quoted from post at 15:15:14 02/12/16)
(quoted from post at 12:57:29 02/12/16) Maybe a cartoon would help Bret picture it in his mind.
Click to expand...


In the 2nd pic aren't you switching ground and neutral?

I get that neutral is the I'm missing the "potential" thing B+D mentioned...maybe.
Click to expand...
wrote on the cartoon, that the neutral & ground are tied together at the motor (incorrect & a no! no!). The result is that load current is now flowing in the now-paralled neutral & ground, so whatever voltage drop occurs in those wires will raise the motor & drill cases to that potential, thus presenting a shock hazard. No reversing/swapping involved. I guess a picture isn't worth a thousand words after all?
Click to expand...

Don't know why I'm missing words in the last post. What is "potential" and whats it got to do with ground and neutral? I'm not trying to be dense and I get that ground is to ground and shouldn't carry current, and neutral goes back to ground at the entrance panel and does carry current. What I don't get is what the difference is between going to ground at the entrance and going to ground downstream at a sub panel...which I think is where this "potential" deal comes in.....or not? Type slowly and use simple words please, I'm not a rocket scientist.
 
(quoted from post at 09:47:16 02/13/16)
(quoted from post at 17:13:13 02/12/16)
(quoted from post at 15:15:14 02/12/16)
(quoted from post at 12:57:29 02/12/16) Maybe a cartoon would help Bret picture it in his mind.
Click to expand...


In the 2nd pic aren't you switching ground and neutral?

I get that neutral is the I'm missing the "potential" thing B+D mentioned...maybe.
Click to expand...
wrote on the cartoon, that the neutral & ground are tied together at the motor (incorrect & a no! no!). The result is that load current is now flowing in the now-paralled neutral & ground, so whatever voltage drop occurs in those wires will raise the motor & drill cases to that potential, thus presenting a shock hazard. No reversing/swapping involved. I guess a picture isn't worth a thousand words after all?
Click to expand...

Don't know why I'm missing words in the last post. What is "potential" and whats it got to do with ground and neutral? I'm not trying to be dense and I get that ground is to ground and shouldn't carry current, and neutral goes back to ground at the entrance panel and does carry current. What I don't get is what the difference is between going to ground at the entrance and going to ground downstream at a sub panel...which I think is where this "potential" deal comes in.....or not? Type slowly and use simple words please, I'm not a rocket scientist.
Click to expand...
hy are you introducing a subpanel into this picture? There is no subpanel here. Potential=potential difference=voltage drop from A to B , in this sketch. Never want safety ground to carry load current. If it does it will be above ground potential, i.e., at a voltage. Voltage on cabinets, enclosures, tools, etc. is a shock hazard!
 
(quoted from post at 11:40:38 02/13/16)
(quoted from post at 09:47:16 02/13/16)
(quoted from post at 17:13:13 02/12/16)
(quoted from post at 15:15:14 02/12/16)
(quoted from post at 12:57:29 02/12/16) Maybe a cartoon would help Bret picture it in his mind.
Click to expand...


In the 2nd pic aren't you switching ground and neutral?

I get that neutral is the I'm missing the "potential" thing B+D mentioned...maybe.
Click to expand...
wrote on the cartoon, that the neutral & ground are tied together at the motor (incorrect & a no! no!). The result is that load current is now flowing in the now-paralled neutral & ground, so whatever voltage drop occurs in those wires will raise the motor & drill cases to that potential, thus presenting a shock hazard. No reversing/swapping involved. I guess a picture isn't worth a thousand words after all?
Click to expand...

Don't know why I'm missing words in the last post. What is "potential" and whats it got to do with ground and neutral? I'm not trying to be dense and I get that ground is to ground and shouldn't carry current, and neutral goes back to ground at the entrance panel and does carry current. What I don't get is what the difference is between going to ground at the entrance and going to ground downstream at a sub panel...which I think is where this "potential" deal comes in.....or not? Type slowly and use simple words please, I'm not a rocket scientist.
Click to expand...
hy are you introducing a subpanel into this picture? There is no subpanel here. Potential=potential difference=voltage drop from A to B , in this sketch. Never want safety ground to carry load current. If it does it will be above ground potential, i.e., at a voltage. Voltage on cabinets, enclosures, tools, etc. is a shock hazard!
Click to expand...

I'm asking about subpanels because someone in this thread said that at the entrance the ground and neutral both go to a ground buss, but at a subpanel they should be separate and the neutral buss is wired back to ground at the entrance. So, I'm back to wondering why, if they both eventually end up at ground, is there such a problem.

Why does voltage drop matter as far as safety? I'm getting the impression that it's a big problem.
 

If there is current flowing in a conductor , there is voltage drop.
Example . Way out there at yonder cow shed with lights and beat trace drawing 12 amps which is being supplied with 120V from the transformer . There is voltage drop on both the line and neutral conductors so the heaters and lights maybe receiving 110V.
Line 1 has dropped 5 volts and is 115. VoLTs with relation to earth/ground . The neutral out at yonder shed end has also dropped 5V and is now 5 Volts above true earth potential.
Now Bubba our jackleg electrican who knows more than the electrical engineers , bonds the ground system at yonder shed to the neutral at yonder shed .
Let's say now half the neutral current is now flowing on the neutral system, with 2.5 volts drop. The other half of the neutral current is flowing in the ground system with 2.5 volts drop.
No surprise here as grounding systems are not a solid no resistance electrical connection to "earth". Dry or frozen dirt, too small of a grounding system , broken or high resistance connections are the norm.
Now when Old Bossy at yonder cow shed sticks her nose in the water trough. She takes 2.5Volts through the snout to hooves. Livestock feel 2.5V like we feel a 9V battery across the tongue .
 
(quoted from post at 17:43:54 02/13/16)
If there is current flowing in a conductor , there is voltage drop.
Example . Way out there at yonder cow shed with lights and beat trace drawing 12 amps which is being supplied with 120V from the transformer . There is voltage drop on both the line and neutral conductors so the heaters and lights maybe receiving 110V.
Line 1 has dropped 5 volts and is 115. VoLTs with relation to earth/ground . The neutral out at yonder shed end has also dropped 5V and is now 5 Volts above true earth potential.
Now Bubba our jackleg electrican who knows more than the electrical engineers , bonds the ground system at yonder shed to the neutral at yonder shed .
Let's say now half the neutral current is now flowing on the neutral system, with 2.5 volts drop. The other half of the neutral current is flowing in the ground system with 2.5 volts drop.
No surprise here as grounding systems are not a solid no resistance electrical connection to "earth". Dry or frozen dirt, too small of a grounding system , broken or high resistance connections are the norm.
Now when Old Bossy at yonder cow shed sticks her nose in the water trough. She takes 2.5Volts through the snout to hooves. Livestock feel 2.5V like we feel a 9V battery across the tongue .
Click to expand...

Oh boy. So, what the devil does all that mean? I haven't got a single sub panel in the barn or garage with separate busses for the neutral and ground! They all have one buss. So what am I supposed to do? These were all wired by licensed electricians 20 years back.
 
(quoted from post at 10:13:18 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 17:43:54 02/13/16)
If there is current flowing in a conductor , there is voltage drop.
Example . Way out there at yonder cow shed with lights and beat trace drawing 12 amps which is being supplied with 120V from the transformer . There is voltage drop on both the line and neutral conductors so the heaters and lights maybe receiving 110V.
Line 1 has dropped 5 volts and is 115. VoLTs with relation to earth/ground . The neutral out at yonder shed end has also dropped 5V and is now 5 Volts above true earth potential.
Now Bubba our jackleg electrican who knows more than the electrical engineers , bonds the ground system at yonder shed to the neutral at yonder shed .
Let's say now half the neutral current is now flowing on the neutral system, with 2.5 volts drop. The other half of the neutral current is flowing in the ground system with 2.5 volts drop.
No surprise here as grounding systems are not a solid no resistance electrical connection to "earth". Dry or frozen dirt, too small of a grounding system , broken or high resistance connections are the norm.
Now when Old Bossy at yonder cow shed sticks her nose in the water trough. She takes 2.5Volts through the snout to hooves. Livestock feel 2.5V like we feel a 9V battery across the tongue .
Click to expand...

Oh boy. So, what the devil does all that mean? I haven't got a single sub panel in the barn or garage with separate busses for the neutral and ground! They all have one buss. So what am I supposed to do? These were all wired by licensed electricians 20 years back.
Click to expand...
hat to do? Seems simple to me. You are happy, animals are happy, so you can either leave it be or hire someone who knows what they are doing to put it right.
 
(quoted from post at 12:14:51 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 10:13:18 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 17:43:54 02/13/16)
If there is current flowing in a conductor , there is voltage drop.
Example . Way out there at yonder cow shed with lights and beat trace drawing 12 amps which is being supplied with 120V from the transformer . There is voltage drop on both the line and neutral conductors so the heaters and lights maybe receiving 110V.
Line 1 has dropped 5 volts and is 115. VoLTs with relation to earth/ground . The neutral out at yonder shed end has also dropped 5V and is now 5 Volts above true earth potential.
Now Bubba our jackleg electrican who knows more than the electrical engineers , bonds the ground system at yonder shed to the neutral at yonder shed .
Let's say now half the neutral current is now flowing on the neutral system, with 2.5 volts drop. The other half of the neutral current is flowing in the ground system with 2.5 volts drop.
No surprise here as grounding systems are not a solid no resistance electrical connection to "earth". Dry or frozen dirt, too small of a grounding system , broken or high resistance connections are the norm.
Now when Old Bossy at yonder cow shed sticks her nose in the water trough. She takes 2.5Volts through the snout to hooves. Livestock feel 2.5V like we feel a 9V battery across the tongue .
Click to expand...

Oh boy. So, what the devil does all that mean? I haven't got a single sub panel in the barn or garage with separate busses for the neutral and ground! They all have one buss. So what am I supposed to do? These were all wired by licensed electricians 20 years back.
Click to expand...
hat to do? Seems simple to me. You are happy, animals are happy, so you can either leave it be or hire someone who knows what they are doing to put it right.
Click to expand...

Okay, so can you take a shot at explaining why because the voltage drops "out yonder" that my livestock is going to get shocked? I must be missing something here.
 
(quoted from post at 10:01:06 02/16/16)
(quoted from post at 12:14:51 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 10:13:18 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 17:43:54 02/13/16)
If there is current flowing in a conductor , there is voltage drop.
Example . Way out there at yonder cow shed with lights and beat trace drawing 12 amps which is being supplied with 120V from the transformer . There is voltage drop on both the line and neutral conductors so the heaters and lights maybe receiving 110V.
Line 1 has dropped 5 volts and is 115. VoLTs with relation to earth/ground . The neutral out at yonder shed end has also dropped 5V and is now 5 Volts above true earth potential.
Now Bubba our jackleg electrican who knows more than the electrical engineers , bonds the ground system at yonder shed to the neutral at yonder shed .
Let's say now half the neutral current is now flowing on the neutral system, with 2.5 volts drop. The other half of the neutral current is flowing in the ground system with 2.5 volts drop.
No surprise here as grounding systems are not a solid no resistance electrical connection to "earth". Dry or frozen dirt, too small of a grounding system , broken or high resistance connections are the norm.
Now when Old Bossy at yonder cow shed sticks her nose in the water trough. She takes 2.5Volts through the snout to hooves. Livestock feel 2.5V like we feel a 9V battery across the tongue .
Click to expand...

Oh boy. So, what the devil does all that mean? I haven't got a single sub panel in the barn or garage with separate busses for the neutral and ground! They all have one buss. So what am I supposed to do? These were all wired by licensed electricians 20 years back.
Click to expand...
hat to do? Seems simple to me. You are happy, animals are happy, so you can either leave it be or hire someone who knows what they are doing to put it right.
Click to expand...

Okay, so can you take a shot at explaining why because the voltage drops "out yonder" that my livestock is going to get shocked? I must be missing something here.
Click to expand...

It's one of abstract thought situations , you either have it or you don't . Similar to how some people can sit down and sketch out an image to near photographic accuracy and detail. While others like myself struggle to draw stick people.
 
(quoted from post at 13:59:08 02/16/16)
(quoted from post at 10:01:06 02/16/16)
(quoted from post at 12:14:51 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 10:13:18 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 17:43:54 02/13/16)
If there is current flowing in a conductor , there is voltage drop.
Example . Way out there at yonder cow shed with lights and beat trace drawing 12 amps which is being supplied with 120V from the transformer . There is voltage drop on both the line and neutral conductors so the heaters and lights maybe receiving 110V.
Line 1 has dropped 5 volts and is 115. VoLTs with relation to earth/ground . The neutral out at yonder shed end has also dropped 5V and is now 5 Volts above true earth potential.
Now Bubba our jackleg electrican who knows more than the electrical engineers , bonds the ground system at yonder shed to the neutral at yonder shed .
Let's say now half the neutral current is now flowing on the neutral system, with 2.5 volts drop. The other half of the neutral current is flowing in the ground system with 2.5 volts drop.
No surprise here as grounding systems are not a solid no resistance electrical connection to "earth". Dry or frozen dirt, too small of a grounding system , broken or high resistance connections are the norm.
Now when Old Bossy at yonder cow shed sticks her nose in the water trough. She takes 2.5Volts through the snout to hooves. Livestock feel 2.5V like we feel a 9V battery across the tongue .
Click to expand...

Oh boy. So, what the devil does all that mean? I haven't got a single sub panel in the barn or garage with separate busses for the neutral and ground! They all have one buss. So what am I supposed to do? These were all wired by licensed electricians 20 years back.
Click to expand...
hat to do? Seems simple to me. You are happy, animals are happy, so you can either leave it be or hire someone who knows what they are doing to put it right.
Click to expand...

Okay, so can you take a shot at explaining why because the voltage drops "out yonder" that my livestock is going to get shocked? I must be missing something here.
Click to expand...

It's one of abstract thought situations , you either have it or you don't . Similar to how some people can sit down and sketch out an image to near photographic accuracy and detail. While others like myself struggle to draw stick people.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a polite way of saying I'm too stupid to get it. Thanks.
 
(quoted from post at 10:10:11 02/17/16)
(quoted from post at 13:59:08 02/16/16)
(quoted from post at 10:01:06 02/16/16)
(quoted from post at 12:14:51 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 10:13:18 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 17:43:54 02/13/16)
If there is current flowing in a conductor , there is voltage drop.
Example . Way out there at yonder cow shed with lights and beat trace drawing 12 amps which is being supplied with 120V from the transformer . There is voltage drop on both the line and neutral conductors so the heaters and lights maybe receiving 110V.
Line 1 has dropped 5 volts and is 115. VoLTs with relation to earth/ground . The neutral out at yonder shed end has also dropped 5V and is now 5 Volts above true earth potential.
Now Bubba our jackleg electrican who knows more than the electrical engineers , bonds the ground system at yonder shed to the neutral at yonder shed .
Let's say now half the neutral current is now flowing on the neutral system, with 2.5 volts drop. The other half of the neutral current is flowing in the ground system with 2.5 volts drop.
No surprise here as grounding systems are not a solid no resistance electrical connection to "earth". Dry or frozen dirt, too small of a grounding system , broken or high resistance connections are the norm.
Now when Old Bossy at yonder cow shed sticks her nose in the water trough. She takes 2.5Volts through the snout to hooves. Livestock feel 2.5V like we feel a 9V battery across the tongue .
Click to expand...

Oh boy. So, what the devil does all that mean? I haven't got a single sub panel in the barn or garage with separate busses for the neutral and ground! They all have one buss. So what am I supposed to do? These were all wired by licensed electricians 20 years back.
Click to expand...
hat to do? Seems simple to me. You are happy, animals are happy, so you can either leave it be or hire someone who knows what they are doing to put it right.
Click to expand...

Okay, so can you take a shot at explaining why because the voltage drops "out yonder" that my livestock is going to get shocked? I must be missing something here.
Click to expand...

It's one of abstract thought situations , you either have it or you don't . Similar to how some people can sit down and sketch out an image to near photographic accuracy and detail. While others like myself struggle to draw stick people.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a polite way of saying I'm too stupid to get it. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Not this time. Unless somebody has actually worked with the stuff and seen it first hand a few times . Plus done some trouble shooting . It's too many moving targets to follow similtanously. .
 
(quoted from post at 15:10:11 02/17/16)
(quoted from post at 13:59:08 02/16/16)
(quoted from post at 10:01:06 02/16/16)
(quoted from post at 12:14:51 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 10:13:18 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 17:43:54 02/13/16)
If there is current flowing in a conductor , there is voltage drop.
Example . Way out there at yonder cow shed with lights and beat trace drawing 12 amps which is being supplied with 120V from the transformer . There is voltage drop on both the line and neutral conductors so the heaters and lights maybe receiving 110V.
Line 1 has dropped 5 volts and is 115. VoLTs with relation to earth/ground . The neutral out at yonder shed end has also dropped 5V and is now 5 Volts above true earth potential.
Now Bubba our jackleg electrican who knows more than the electrical engineers , bonds the ground system at yonder shed to the neutral at yonder shed .
Let's say now half the neutral current is now flowing on the neutral system, with 2.5 volts drop. The other half of the neutral current is flowing in the ground system with 2.5 volts drop.
No surprise here as grounding systems are not a solid no resistance electrical connection to "earth". Dry or frozen dirt, too small of a grounding system , broken or high resistance connections are the norm.
Now when Old Bossy at yonder cow shed sticks her nose in the water trough. She takes 2.5Volts through the snout to hooves. Livestock feel 2.5V like we feel a 9V battery across the tongue .
Click to expand...

Oh boy. So, what the devil does all that mean? I haven't got a single sub panel in the barn or garage with separate busses for the neutral and ground! They all have one buss. So what am I supposed to do? These were all wired by licensed electricians 20 years back.
Click to expand...
hat to do? Seems simple to me. You are happy, animals are happy, so you can either leave it be or hire someone who knows what they are doing to put it right.
Click to expand...

Okay, so can you take a shot at explaining why because the voltage drops "out yonder" that my livestock is going to get shocked? I must be missing something here.
Click to expand...

It's one of abstract thought situations , you either have it or you don't . Similar to how some people can sit down and sketch out an image to near photographic accuracy and detail. While others like myself struggle to draw stick people.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a polite way of saying I'm too stupid to get it. Thanks.
Click to expand...
wouldn't be so harsh as to say stupid! When someone has been told & had something explained to them over & over in different ways & still sees no light, I would more likely apply the terms, obtuse & dense.
 
Thanks for all the explanations, even I get it with no science or engineering background, just an interest in being safe.

Thinking about this makes me wonder about my barn and garage panels. At my place the drop from the transformer goes to a meter on a pole. That feeds in to a large box below it with a 200 amp breaker. The house, the garage, the barn and a small building with the well pump all come off of that. How should each panel in the buildings be wired: with neutral and ground together, as suggested for an entrance, or separate neutral and ground? All the panels have their own ground rod to the panels. It seems I have four entrance panels or is the box with the big breaker the entrance and all the others are sub panels to it?
 
(quoted from post at 12:42:55 02/17/16) Thanks for all the explanations, even I get it with no science or engineering background, just an interest in being safe.

Thinking about this makes me wonder about my barn and garage panels. At my place the drop from the transformer goes to a meter on a pole. That feeds in to a large box below it with a 200 amp breaker. The house, the garage, the barn and a small building with the well pump all come off of that. How should each panel in the buildings be wired: with neutral and ground togethiper, as suggested for an entrance, or separate neutral and ground? All the panels have their own ground rod to the panels. It seems I have four entrance panels or is the box with the big breaker the entrance and all the others are sub panels to it?
Click to expand...

The only place there should be a bond to neutral is at the power meter or at the first breaker panel.
Grounds should be at every panel and service . All tied together to build a ground plain.
Neutrals all floating isolated from ground at every out panel.
Now if there is no livestock . There are all kinds of electrical systems with 5-10 or more Volts above actual true earth potential on the ground wires . Ignorance is bliss.
 
(quoted from post at 13:07:13 02/17/16)
(quoted from post at 15:10:11 02/17/16)
(quoted from post at 13:59:08 02/16/16)
(quoted from post at 10:01:06 02/16/16)
(quoted from post at 12:14:51 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 10:13:18 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 17:43:54 02/13/16)
If there is current flowing in a conductor , there is voltage drop.
Example . Way out there at yonder cow shed with lights and beat trace drawing 12 amps which is being supplied with 120V from the transformer . There is voltage drop on both the line and neutral conductors so the heaters and lights maybe receiving 110V.
Line 1 has dropped 5 volts and is 115. VoLTs with relation to earth/ground . The neutral out at yonder shed end has also dropped 5V and is now 5 Volts above true earth potential.
Now Bubba our jackleg electrican who knows more than the electrical engineers , bonds the ground system at yonder shed to the neutral at yonder shed .
Let's say now half the neutral current is now flowing on the neutral system, with 2.5 volts drop. The other half of the neutral current is flowing in the ground system with 2.5 volts drop.
No surprise here as grounding systems are not a solid no resistance electrical connection to "earth". Dry or frozen dirt, too small of a grounding system , broken or high resistance connections are the norm.
Now when Old Bossy at yonder cow shed sticks her nose in the water trough. She takes 2.5Volts through the snout to hooves. Livestock feel 2.5V like we feel a 9V battery across the tongue .
Click to expand...

Oh boy. So, what the devil does all that mean? I haven't got a single sub panel in the barn or garage with separate busses for the neutral and ground! They all have one buss. So what am I supposed to do? These were all wired by licensed electricians 20 years back.
Click to expand...
hat to do? Seems simple to me. You are happy, animals are happy, so you can either leave it be or hire someone who knows what they are doing to put it right.
Click to expand...

Okay, so can you take a shot at explaining why because the voltage drops "out yonder" that my livestock is going to get shocked? I must be missing something here.
Click to expand...

It's one of abstract thought situations , you either have it or you don't . Similar to how some people can sit down and sketch out an image to near photographic accuracy and detail. While others like myself struggle to draw stick people.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a polite way of saying I'm too stupid to get it. Thanks.
Click to expand...
wouldn't be so harsh as to say stupid! When someone has been told & had something explained to them over & over in different ways & still sees no light, I would more likely apply the terms, obtuse & dense.
Click to expand...

I have asked several times for an explanation of what "potential" is, why it matters and why my animals aren't getting shocked when people are saying they should be. I don't see an answer to any of those questions.
 
(quoted from post at 09:58:30 02/18/16)
(quoted from post at 13:07:13 02/17/16)
(quoted from post at 15:10:11 02/17/16)
(quoted from post at 13:59:08 02/16/16)
(quoted from post at 10:01:06 02/16/16)
(quoted from post at 12:14:51 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 10:13:18 02/15/16)
(quoted from post at 17:43:54 02/13/16)
If there is current flowing in a conductor , there is voltage drop.
Example . Way out there at yonder cow shed with lights and beat trace drawing 12 amps which is being supplied with 120V from the transformer . There is voltage drop on both the line and neutral conductors so the heaters and lights maybe receiving 110V.
Line 1 has dropped 5 volts and is 115. VoLTs with relation to earth/ground . The neutral out at yonder shed end has also dropped 5V and is now 5 Volts above true earth potential.
Now Bubba our jackleg electrican who knows more than the electrical engineers , bonds the ground system at yonder shed to the neutral at yonder shed .
Let's say now half the neutral current is now flowing on the neutral system, with 2.5 volts drop. The other half of the neutral current is flowing in the ground system with 2.5 volts drop.
No surprise here as grounding systems are not a solid no resistance electrical connection to "earth". Dry or frozen dirt, too small of a grounding system , broken or high resistance connections are the norm.
Now when Old Bossy at yonder cow shed sticks her nose in the water trough. She takes 2.5Volts through the snout to hooves. Livestock feel 2.5V like we feel a 9V battery across the tongue .
Click to expand...

Oh boy. So, what the devil does all that mean? I haven't got a single sub panel in the barn or garage with separate busses for the neutral and ground! They all have one buss. So what am I supposed to do? These were all wired by licensed electricians 20 years back.
Click to expand...
hat to do? Seems simple to me. You are happy, animals are happy, so you can either leave it be or hire someone who knows what they are doing to put it right.
Click to expand...

Okay, so can you take a shot at explaining why because the voltage drops "out yonder" that my livestock is going to get shocked? I must be missing something here.
Click to expand...

It's one of abstract thought situations , you either have it or you don't . Similar to how some people can sit down and sketch out an image to near photographic accuracy and detail. While others like myself struggle to draw stick people.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a polite way of saying I'm too stupid to get it. Thanks.
Click to expand...
wouldn't be so harsh as to say stupid! When someone has been told & had something explained to them over & over in different ways & still sees no light, I would more likely apply the terms, obtuse & dense.
Click to expand...

I have asked several times for an explanation of what "potential" is, why it matters and why my animals aren't getting shocked when people are saying they should be. I don't see an answer to any of those questions.
Click to expand...

It maybe best for the layperson no mess with the stuff and just believe what they are told. And to accept electricity as a mystical black art practiced by only a very few masters of the craft. No secret handshake however.

Potential is the voltage differential between two points that will push current through a path, if a path is provided.
Way out at yonder shed with the floor at true earth potential. With the water trough at 2.5 volts above true earth potential due to a jackleg wiring job flowing neutral current through the ground wiring. Old Bossy when having a drink will close a path across the 2.5V volt potential and flow current with her body as a conductor. Old bossy feels that 2.5V like you feel a 9V battery across the tongue.
Image result for potential voltage
Voltage, electric potential difference, electric pressure or electric tension (denoted ?V or ?U) is the difference in electric potential energy between two points per unit electric charge.
 
I have asked several times for an explanation of what "potential" is, why it matters and why my animals aren't getting shocked when people are saying they should be. I don't see an answer to any of those questions.[/quote]

It maybe best for the layperson no mess with the stuff and just believe what they are told. And to accept electricity as a mystical black art practiced by only a very few masters of the craft. No secret handshake however.

Potential is the voltage differential between two points that will push current through a path, if a path is provided.
Way out at yonder shed with the floor at true earth potential. With the water trough at 2.5 volts above true earth potential due to a jackleg wiring job flowing neutral current through the ground wiring. Old Bossy when having a drink will close a path across the 2.5V volt potential and flow current with her body as a conductor. Old bossy feels that 2.5V like you feel a 9V battery across the tongue.
Image result for potential voltage
Voltage, electric potential difference, electric pressure or electric tension (denoted ?V or ?U) is the difference in electric potential energy between two points per unit electric charge.
 
I have asked several times for an explanation of what "potential" is, why it matters and why my animals aren't getting shocked when people are saying they should be. I don't see an answer to any of those questions.[/quote]

It maybe best for the layperson no mess with the stuff and just believe what they are told. And to accept electricity as a mystical black art practiced by only a very few masters of the craft. No secret handshake however.

Potential is the voltage differential between two points that will push current through a path, if a path is provided.
Way out at yonder shed with the floor at true earth potential. With the water trough at 2.5 volts above true earth potential due to a jackleg wiring job flowing neutral current through the ground wiring. Old Bossy when having a drink will close a path across the 2.5V volt potential and flow current with her body as a conductor. Old bossy feels that 2.5V like you feel a 9V battery across the tongue.
Image result for potential voltage
Voltage, electric potential difference, electric pressure or electric tension (denoted ? V or ? U) is the difference in electric potential energy between two points per unit electric charge.
 
I have asked several times for an explanation of what "potential" is, why it matters and why my animals aren't getting shocked when people are saying they should be. I don't see an answer to any of those questions.[/quote]

It maybe best for the layperson no mess with the stuff and just believe what they are told. And to accept electricity as a mystical black art practiced by only a very few masters of the craft. No secret handshake however.

Potential is the voltage differential between two points that will push current through a path, if a path is provided.
Way out at yonder shed with the floor at true earth potential. With the water trough at 2.5 volts above true earth potential due to a jackleg wiring job flowing neutral current through the ground wiring. Old Bossy when having a drink will close a path across the 2.5V volt potential and flow current with her body as a conductor. Old bossy feels that 2.5V like you feel a 9V battery across the tongue.
Image result for potential voltage
Voltage, electric potential difference, electric pressure or electric tension is the difference in electric potential energy between two points per unit electric charge.
 
(quoted from post at 14:05:10 02/18/16) I have asked several times for an explanation of what "potential" is, why it matters and why my animals aren't getting shocked when people are saying they should be. I don't see an answer to any of those questions.
Click to expand...

It maybe best for the layperson no mess with the stuff and just believe what they are told. And to accept electricity as a mystical black art practiced by only a very few masters of the craft. No secret handshake however.

Potential is the voltage differential between two points that will push current through a path, if a path is provided.
Way out at yonder shed with the floor at true earth potential. With the water trough at 2.5 volts above true earth potential due to a jackleg wiring job flowing neutral current through the ground wiring. Old Bossy when having a drink will close a path across the 2.5V volt potential and flow current with her body as a conductor. Old bossy feels that 2.5V like you feel a 9V battery across the tongue.
Image result for potential voltage
Voltage, electric potential difference, electric pressure or electric tension is the difference in electric potential energy between two points per unit electric charge.[/quote]ow that my friends is a classic teaching example! Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell them, then tell them what you told them. Love it!
 
(quoted from post at 16:15:35 02/18/16)
(quoted from post at 14:05:10 02/18/16) I have asked several times for an explanation of what "potential" is, why it matters and why my animals aren't getting shocked when people are saying they should be. I don't see an answer to any of those questions.
Click to expand...

It maybe best for the layperson no mess with the stuff and just believe what they are told. And to accept electricity as a mystical black art practiced by only a very few masters of the craft. No secret handshake however.

Potential is the voltage differential between two points that will push current through a path, if a path is provided.
Way out at yonder shed with the floor at true earth potential. With the water trough at 2.5 volts above true earth potential due to a jackleg wiring job flowing neutral current through the ground wiring. Old Bossy when having a drink will close a path across the 2.5V volt potential and flow current with her body as a conductor. Old bossy feels that 2.5V like you feel a 9V battery across the tongue.
Image result for potential voltage
Voltage, electric potential difference, electric pressure or electric tension is the difference in electric potential energy between two points per unit electric charge.
Click to expand...
ow that my friends is a classic teaching example! Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell them, then tell them what you told them. Love it![/quote]

And if he had simply said "Potential is the voltage differential between two points that will push current through a path, if a path is provided. " in the first place and explained that it's only a problem "if a path is provided" instead of telling me I'm too stupid to get it then we could have saved a lot of effort. Electricity is not magic, it's not mysticism. Like most things, you just need people in the know to climb down off their lofty towers and act like decent human beings.
 
(quoted from post at 09:43:23 02/19/16)
(quoted from post at 16:15:35 02/18/16)
(quoted from post at 14:05:10 02/18/16) I have asked several times for an explanation of what "potential" is, why it matters and why my animals aren't getting shocked when people are saying they should be. I don't see an answer to any of those questions.
Click to expand...

It maybe best for the layperson no mess with the stuff and just believe what they are told. And to accept electricity as a mystical black art practiced by only a very few masters of the craft. No secret handshake however.

Potential is the voltage differential between two points that will push current through a path, if a path is provided.
Way out at yonder shed with the floor at true earth potential. With the water trough at 2.5 volts above true earth potential due to a jackleg wiring job flowing neutral current through the ground wiring. Old Bossy when having a drink will close a path across the 2.5V volt potential and flow current with her body as a conductor. Old bossy feels that 2.5V like you feel a 9V battery across the tongue.
Image result for potential voltage
Voltage, electric potential difference, electric pressure or electric tension is the difference in electric potential energy between two points per unit electric charge.
Click to expand...
ow that my friends is a classic teaching example! Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell them, then tell them what you told them. Love it!
Click to expand...

And if he had simply said "Potential is the voltage differential between two points that will push current through a path, if a path is provided. " in the first place and explained that it's only a problem "if a path is provided" instead of telling me I'm too stupid to get it then we could have saved a lot of effort. Electricity is not magic, it's not mysticism. Like most things, you just need people in the know to climb down off their lofty towers and act like decent human beings.[/quote]ll I can add is that the man holding the drill is/was always that "path" and the potential was, from the beginning, described as the voltage difference between "A" & "B", the voltage above earth potential. In B&D's defense, there is a limit to how much 'hand holding' people are willing to do.
 
I am the one who started this thread and asked the original question. I received the information I needed on the first day this thread was up and I am grateful to the kind souls who helped me. I have not actually installed the wire to the welder plug yet but it has come in the mail and I hope to do it soon. I do not understand Bret4207's complaint. No one on this forum is responsible for making anyone else understand anything, and a good faith effort has been made by several people to explain the answer to his question. I think it would be wise to allow this thread to come to an end, especially since it has fallen victim to the classic/modern viewing problem, and if further discussion of the larger electrical question is required to start a new thread for that purpose.
Zach
 
(quoted from post at 13:26:15 02/19/16) I am the one who started this thread and asked the original question. I received the information I needed on the first day this thread was up and I am grateful to the kind souls who helped me. I have not actually installed the wire to the welder plug yet but it has come in the mail and I hope to do it soon. I do not understand Bret4207's complaint. No one on this forum is responsible for making anyone else understand anything, and a good faith effort has been made by several people to explain the answer to his question. I think it would be wise to allow this thread to come to an end, especially since it has fallen victim to the classic/modern viewing problem, and if further discussion of the larger electrical question is required to start a new thread for that purpose.
Zach
Click to expand...

My complaint is that I'm being called stupid when people won't make any effort beyond calling things magic Zach. I asked an honest question, which won't happen again, and got crapped on by the egomaniacs. End of story.
 
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