another abs/traction control post

didnt want to steal another post on abs/traction control so here we go. as most folks here know i am an auto body shop owner. we do a volunteer presentation several times a year for the local high school drivers ed program. we cover the vehicle end of the program and familiarize students with basic automotive maintenance and repairs, also cover air bag systems, passive and active restraint systems, traction control and anti lock brake systems. the most common misconception is that anti lock brakes make you stop faster in any road condition. this is false. the primary purpose of anti lock brakes is to avoid wheel locking so as to remain in control of the steering of the vehicle. it does not make you stop faster. also, traction control and stability control (yaw sensors) do not magically make your vehicle get super traction on snow, ice, wet pavement, gravel roads ect. it reduces engine power to curb wheel spin, and uses braking to keep the vehicle going in the direction you want to go. thats it ...no magic. the down side is the systems are extremely complicated and expensive to repair.

And most of the latest systems work very well. Some of the earlier renditions had problems.

It does not matter if I could control the vehicle if it was not possible to bring it to a stop.

I think the idea is if you maintain steering control you can drive around the worst obstacles to take the ditch instead of hitting another car or hitting a utility pole if you're driving too fast to stop in time.

You are correct in every way. A lot of people forget that things like ABS and air bags are government mandates not optional extras. Most of that traction/braking stuff still boils down to proper tires for the task at hand. For instance, advertising has brainwashed people into thinking that 4WD or AWD is the end all and that they can drive straight up an ice covered wall even with those wide bald tires. I also love the term 'all weather tires'. People actually believe that stuff. When we bought our latest car my wife just had to have leather (like every car she has had for the last 27 years). Well, it was her car and it makes her happy and you know the old saying; 'Happy wife, happy life'.
When I was a kid my father (a product of the Great Depression) would only buy new cars and always the cheapest one on the lot (the ones that were stripped and priced to advertise and get customers to come in) and they were virtually worthless even before you drove it off the lot. He got absolutely nothing for them when he traded them in (no one wanted that kind of car) which convinced him that ANY car was used up when it reached 50k miles.

For some of us oldsters that maybe grew up driving to fast and hot rodding in are youth. ABS is really hard to get used to when being used to automatically lifting pressure on the brake pedal if enough traction is lost that direction can't be maintained or no lockup wanted on a surface. Don't like them myself.

ABS makes you as good as your worst tire - or the tire with the least amount of traction. I can see where stability control could be helpful though
Pete

My first experience with ANTI LOC braking systems was on a 1977 IH 4300 semi with a brand new shiny East all aluim. dump trailer on it's second load . I was on a four lane high way running the speed limit , some guy out in ft. of me made a left turn into the media strip and stopped half way in and half way out i started to slow down and look for a place to move over as i was in the left lane passing slower trucks . The next thing i know this guy makes a hard right turn back on to the highway in my lane and plum plants it dead stop . The Jake brake is on full and i come down on the brake pedal hard and i hear the brakes release , now with both feet on the brake pedal the hand vale bent almost around the steering column and latterly breaking the knobs off the air control valves the truck say AH NOPE I AIN'T STOPPEN and i rear ended the car , NOT good . Call the Bear and he shows up and the questions start . He starts looking and comes up to me and says i do not see any skid marks didn't you even try and stop ?? Yes i tried everything to stop and one of the witnesses chimed in and yes he was trying to stop and all i heared was his air release but the brake lights were on another guy say yes he was trying to as he had his Jake on way before as he was slowing down before the guy pulled back out on to the road and stopped dead in ft. of him. The cop looks at me and says does you truck have anti loc brakes and i said yes and so does the trailer as this whole outfit is less then five months old and the trailer is two days old. The bear then informs me that he had just left another wreck that involved a semi that was brand new that did not stop and released all the air and did not reapply before he came to this one . Other then a dented ft. bumper and a broke fog light and a damaged ego i was ok and the people in the car were ok , Turns out the driver did not have a licence and cold not speak english . Now had that been and older truck i would NOT have hit that car and there would have been eighteen tires with huge flat spots on them . When i got the truck home every wheel sencor was removed all computer control valves removed and replaced with non ANTI SKID valves , NOW when you layed into the brakes it STOPPED . Second time experience with ANTI lock brakes was on my 88 Ford F350 while pulling my trailer . When the outside air temp went above 80 degrees and on a LONG steady pull when you went to stop YOU HAD NO and i mean NO brakes at all on the truck , the pedal would go all the way to the floor , First time that i lost all brakes on the truck i was hauling a tractor north bound on Ohio Rt 11 , a four lane highway that runs from the Ohio river all the way up to lake Eire . From the time you get off I 80 and head north in 11 till you get past U S Rt. 6 it is all up hill but it looks flat for the most part to some one driving a car or pick up , BUT not to someone driving a loaded semi as you are working the snot out of it to maintane highway speed , same hold true if your pulling loaded trailer with a pick up . I had a oliver 1850 on the deck and i was running the fityfive MPH but you were working the engine to hold that speed . I was only going about half way to Rt 6 , as i was getting off the 5 and 88 exit i was letting it drift down in speed and down shifted to third and went to push on the brake to stop and as i pushed down on the pedal NOTHING was happening and now the brake pedal was on the floor , ok plan B use the trailer brakes , yea i know the brakes are adjusted up correctly and that all magnits are good and all the brake lining is excelent and so they SHOULD STOP ME , ah NO they do not stop you they SLOW YOU DOWN , Luckly no one was coming and i did get it slowed down even with the E/brake to make the rt turn and limp it on up to the farm i was headed to and see why i lost all my brakes . After the tractor was unloaded i started checking to see if i blew any lines and found nothing , BUT i did have brake fluid running out of the master cylinder from the cap. Why is it leaking from thr cap ?? and the master cylinder is now OVER FULL ???? So you have a mushy brake pedal then you MUST have air in the lines , So lets open the wheel cylinder and see . Started on the right rear and it was like yea there is fluid oh now there is AIR , Why ?? As i contuined to bleed the system there was a lot of air thru the whole system . HOw can there be AIR in a sealed system? I knew everything was good to go on the truck as i just serviced it the night before ??? change oil greased fluid levels all checked from ft to back top to bottom . After bleeding and topping off the brake fluid i had good brakes . Brakes worked just fine TILL THE NEXT time i was on a long had pull for and extened period of time while running highway speeds and the same thing happened on a warm day . Talked to everybody i knwe about this ,talked to a Ford factory rep( He was about as dumb as a box of rocks) Kept telling me that there was NOWAY this could happen. Then it did it again and each time the brake fluid was pushed out of the master cylinder and you had nothing. Here FORD placed the master control valve down on the left inside of the frame rail next to the left exhaust pipe and the heat from that 460 even though there was this tiny little heat shield next to the valve it would heat the valve and cause the brake fluid to expand and cavitate the valve and when you came down on the brakes you had NO FT> BRAKES and YOU HAD NO REAR BRAKES till you went and bleed the system and added MORE fluid . SOOOOOOOooooo the cure for this problem was removal of the valve and move the brake lines feather away from the left exhaust down pipe. NOW you had brakes aon oh yes i forgot about the stator ring that came off the rear end ring gear carrier and ate a ring and pinion . So if i say i do not like anti loc brakes forgive me . somehow i managed to drive many years on all road conditions with out anti loc brakes and of all them OLD hopped cars i had and got along just fine with out tractoin control , if ya wanted TRACTION ya put better tires on it added a posi and learned to BACK out of it till ya got traction. In other workd LEARN HOW TO DRIVE .

(quoted from post at 10:22:29 01/26/16) For some of us oldsters that maybe grew up driving to fast and hot rodding in are youth. ABS is really hard to get used to when being used to automatically lifting pressure on the brake pedal if enough traction is lost that direction can't be maintained or no lockup wanted on a surface. Don't like them myself.

Click to expand...

I put ABS right up there with global warming, ethanol-laced gasoline and social media - Horse Pucky! :evil:

ABS traction control are for people who don't know how to drive.

Yes, but I never cared for the experience of being in an ice covered parking lot and not being able to park the vehicle without putting it into neutral. It just would not stop otherwise. As I said, the latest vehicles don't have this problem, but there were some that did, and are not missed at all.

I worked on trucks for 40 yrs til I retired last year.Back in '77 or '78 we got some new GMC Astros with ABS.The first few trips out the drivers complained the trucks had lost their brakes and only the trailer had stopped them(non abs on trailer).We checked them out,and every thing seemed good. A few more reports of no brakes came in so we disabled them.I myself ran thru a red light when it changed quick on me : the brakes dumped the air but did not reapply.
In more recent years they became mandated again and no disabling them.I road tested many trucks after repairs,and they worked pretty good;just as Glennster stated,they do keep you straight,and you don't skid.Could I stop any quicker,probably not.But,I think I would prefer not to have them,and do the stopping my self.
On my personal p/u truck,'03 Chev,I recently had a brake line blow while towing my loaded trailer,and here's what I think is bad about ABS.When the line blew to the rears,the fronts started to skid,the ABS kicked on and dumped the pressure to the fronts and then I lost all pedal,and stopping power.Since the rears were not skidding I think it tried to apply the rears,BUT,there was a leak!And so,the fronts, which needed to apply did not,and so I had to pump the brakes myself.Luckily,the trailer brakes did their job,and I got stopped.If this happened with a non Abs vehicle I think I would have stopped quicker than I did,because the dual master cylinder would still apply the fronts,even if I did not pump the pedal.
Which leads to my next beef:brake lines should NEVER,ever,RUST thru.My new ones are all stainless!The factories can make things rust proof if they want to.My '76 chev p/u had the cab and bed about rust clean away,but the brake lines,nor the frame, did not.Mark

Pete

You mightn't like stability control if you drive dirt roads in my experience

No need to start telling my numerous horror stories on ABS : just say I believe that that technology creates as many dangerous situations as it prevents. Especially on semi trucks.

(quoted from post at 17:51:15 01/26/16)

(quoted from post at 10:22:29 01/26/16) For some of us oldsters that maybe grew up driving to fast and hot rodding in are youth. ABS is really hard to get used to when being used to automatically lifting pressure on the brake pedal if enough traction is lost that direction can't be maintained or no lockup wanted on a surface. Don't like them myself.

Click to expand...

I put ABS right up there with global warming, ethanol-laced gasoline and social media - Horse Pucky! :evil:

Click to expand...

ABS saved my life and others many moons ago... was driving a straight truck with a vacumn tank, hauling sewage from a storage tank to the city sewers. This was before the lines were hooked up to the central system from an exclusive new development. It was winter and I was loaded. Was coming down a hill toward the river and as I topped the hill and looked down it was a glaze of ice. I proceeded as slow as I could and at the bottom was a traffic light that of course, turned red just as I got there. Knowing the new '77 Ford had ABS (I think it was just on the rear) I just jammed on the pedal and let it stop on its own nice and straight with no issues, like skidding through the light and taking out a citizen. I've been a fan of ABS ever since then. I've got no issue with worthy safety equipment.