condensation

Geo-TH,In · Jan 15, 2016

Two days ago we had a 5 degree morning. Yesterday, 36 hours later, temp was 45 when I put some gas in tractor. If you look closely, the gas can is covered with condensation.

Got me to thinking, if condensation can occur on the outside of a metal can, can condensation occur inside the gas tank? If so, is this the reason for gas line freezing?

I only noticed condensation on the gas can. Everything inside the pole barn was dry, even the metal sides.

johnlobb · Jan 15, 2016

Yes it can.(No pun intended).

wjytexas · Jan 15, 2016

And in crankcases.

John M · Jan 15, 2016

Keep it full and that wont happen.

Russ from MN · Jan 15, 2016

I thought gas cans had to be red? I am somewhat colorblind, but not that bad! There is probably not as much condensation inside because the fumes would not contain as much humidity. I also think plastic containers will have less condensation. I have always tried to store gas cans on the ground or on a concrete floor in the shade inside so they don't change temperature as much. Also it seems 10% ethanol gas reduces the problem by absorbing the water, as long as it's not too much, the last time I had a problem with gas line freeze up was 1980.

Geo-TH,In · Jan 15, 2016

Valvoline racing fuel came in my blue cans. I really think gasoline is color blind, don't you? Are there gas can cops? Never seen one.

Geo-TH,In · Jan 15, 2016

So do you think some people blame ethanol on their problems, when it may actually be condensation?

Isn't ethanol used to prevent gas line freeze up?

Janicholson · Jan 15, 2016

Yes. The amount of air passing the outside of the container/object is far greater than that contained inside. As such the humidity in the contained air will be far less (in quantity than the dripping on the outside. Ethanol fuel will absorb a % of water hold it in suspension without freezing. Where it is used there is no need for "dry Gas" or "Heat". If the container is full, the volume of moisture laden air is smaller. If the container is almost empty, the opposite is true, and the remaining fuel is more contaminated. At some point the moisture will overwhelm the Ethanol and makes a mess.
From EPA memo: "As an example, at 60 degrees F, water can be absorbed by a blend of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol up to a content of 0.5 volume percent
before it will phase separate. This means that approximately 3.8 teaspoons of water can be dissolved per gallon of the fuel before the water will begin to phase separate."
If it gets to that point, the water will pull ethanol out of the gasoline and make a snotty substance that is way bad. Any temperature change in the location of the container (or transmission case etc.) will breathe. In goes the moisture, out goes the drier air, leaving moisture behind. Over a period of years, gallons of water can accumulate in tractor transmissions from this action, especially if it is a little used tractor and never operates at load for hours. Jim

massey333 · Jan 15, 2016

Kind of tongue in cheek,George,but yes there are regulations.BLUE IS FOR KER

nly,Yellow=Diesel and Red=Gasoline only.

Russ from MN · Jan 15, 2016

I think it's very important that the color of the container corresponds to the contents! Think of the many possibilities of a person using gas for a purpose where diesel or kerosene was required!

Steve@Advance · Jan 15, 2016

My theory, as long as the container is closed, no more moisture can get in that isn't already in there.

There may be limited condensation on the inside, but it would have had to have condensed from water vapor suspended above the fuel level, or boiled out of the fuel itself. But what was there, is still there, the amount of moisture hasn't changed. If anything were to condense inside the container, it would be fuel vapor, which would simply return to the liquid form when the temperature equalized.

True fuel contamination from condensation would occur when the container is open to the atmosphere. The fuel would have to be colder than the air. Instead of accumulating on the walls of the container (which would quickly equalize with the air temperature, so no condensation would form there), the moisture would form on top of the cold fuel, and immediately sink to the bottom, or be absorbed by the ethanol, if present.

Gas line freezing is caused from liquid water settling in the low points of the line. Doesn't happen much now that most gas has ethanol.

Condensation inside a crankcase comes as a result of a byproduct of combustion. It accumulates there as a result of poor crankcase ventilation and failure to operate at high enough temperature to boil it away.

D beatty · Jan 15, 2016

I do use different color of containers but I can tell what fuel it is by smell of it ( gas & diesel) as for kerosene it looks like water.

Geo-TH,In · Jan 15, 2016

That's not a problem for me, I only use gas, no diesel, no K1. So color isn't a real problem here.

Got fuel cans from neighbor who's grandson has a race car.

Geo-TH,In · Jan 15, 2016

Steve, The first winter I got my Jubilee, the hydraulic controls were froze up. You could see frost inside. I think the previous owner left it outside and somehow water got inside or it was decades of condensation. I had to work on hydraulics, removed the lift cover. It was full of rust, couldn't believe it.

I also saw an engine left inside an unheated building, not used for years and the cylinders were full of rust, engine locked up. I think that was caused by condensation don't you?

caterpillar guy · Jan 15, 2016

Methanol is the alcohol that is used for fuel line antifreeze. Yes condensation can occur with the can full. It does take just right conditions though.

showcrop · Jan 15, 2016

Depending on climate and conditions condensation can be huge. I keep my shop closed a lot of the time. Once in the spring I had it closed because it was cold, then a warm but humid front came along, so I opened up in order to get some warm air in there. Soon there was condensation dripping off from my tractors from multiple places, so that by the time it had warmed up there was about two gallons on the floor under one of them. When snowmobiling I try to fill the tank before stopping for the night or getting done for the weekend. One time when we didn't, and we went down the street in the AM, I removed the gas cap and there was a heavy coating of frost on the underside of the cap.

bill mart · Jan 15, 2016

saw this on the web:

Most fuel line additives are based on isopropyl alcohol -- stay away from any methanol-based de-icers, they can corrode fuel system components -- while our gasoline contains ethyl alcohol

fixerupper · Jan 15, 2016

Before I used ethanol I would drain two or three quarts of condensation out of a 550 gallon gas barrel every year. This is in northwestern Iowa humidity and temperatures.

Steve@Advance · Jan 15, 2016

Yes, transmissions do condense water. And leak water in around the shifters. Like Janicholson said, they breathe with temperature changes because they are not sealed. Other factors, most never really get hot enough to boil off the water, and there is no positive ventilation to remove the vapor, so it recondenses and the cycle starts over.

A stored engine will condense. Same thing, breathing from temp change and not sealed. Also good chance it was stored with moisture contaminated oil in the crankcase. It doesn't take much moisture to rust bare cast iron!

Geo-TH,In · Jan 15, 2016

So condensation will form inside a tank. Then you are saying ethanol absorbs the condensation. So
ethanol isn't as bad as some want to make you believe?

Geo-TH,In · Jan 15, 2016

I think the EPA mandated formulated fuels decades ago for different places in the US. I can't buy anything but E10.

john in la · Jan 15, 2016

Condensation can form anywhere there is humid air and the correct temperature.
And humid air can get into the tightest of places.

I had a 350 4 bolt short block I did not have a use for at the time but wanted to save it.
Put it in a sealed (water tight) 55 gallon drum.
The kind of drum that the whole top comes off and you seal it with a gasket and band strap.
Opened the drum about a year or 2 later because I decided to just sell it as I still did not have a use for it.
Was nothing but scrap as the cylinder walls were all rusted.

fixerupper · Jan 15, 2016

Ethanol will emulsify water up to a certain saturation point. Most of us use up the fuel before the saturation point is reached here in Iowa. After I started using ethanol this same 550 gallon gas barrel never had water in the bottom again. This barrel isnt being used for gasoline anymore because I don't use enough gasoline to justify that big of a barrel. I now use a smaller barrel that I can empty more often. Even though ethanol emulsifies the water so it can be burned in the engine I still don't like the idea of water in my gasoline, hence the smaller tank.

condensation

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