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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures

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old

10-21-2015 15:28:41




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So did a bit more on this machine. Model number is PC200LC-6L
Battery not running reads 24.5 volts.
Running it reads 27 volts so alternator is charging the system. Measured voltage on the terminals of the secondary solenoid and get no voltage on the wires that go to the small wire on the solenoid on the starter. Number is that solenoid are 0-25000-7772
24V NO*41
Going to try to find where to get one of those.
Picture #1 model/serial number
#2 battery box and how things are hooked up
#3 and 4 the starter and solenoids

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Gene in Mi

10-23-2015 14:57:44




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
This should help. There is a wiring diagram on page 3.

http://www.abc-companies.com/bundles/abccompaniescms/pdf/service_bulletins/SB1169.pdf

http://www.abc-companies.com/bundles/abccompaniescms/pdf/service_bulletins/SB1169.pdf



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JMOR

10-23-2015 14:44:47




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
Interesting problem or maybe it belongs in weird?



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JMOR

10-23-2015 14:02:19




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeI'm sure you will look at that before new parts.



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old

10-23-2015 14:09:29




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to JMOR, 10-23-2015 14:02:19  
A lot will depend on the owner and what he does between the time I get back down to it



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JMOR

10-23-2015 12:34:11




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
Which is smaller wire on today (Battery or starter post)?

"When I installed it I hooked the battery cable up to the only big post that did not have a wire on it ....". Battery needed to go to post with the little wire on it, as that little wire is the input power to the AUX or IMS solenoid



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old

10-23-2015 13:53:24




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to JMOR, 10-23-2015 12:34:11  
Not sure where it is right now since I have not been back to it since the other day.



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JMOR

10-22-2015 20:11:00




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeYou are right in 'never rule out the grounds', but in this case, he probably has in that with some connections, he can make it spin over & start. I still believe it is a matter of some incorrect connections......we will see in time.



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old

10-22-2015 20:39:10




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to JMOR, 10-22-2015 20:11:00  
Ya in time I may just get it to work as it should. Plan right now is the gt the smaller solenoid and go form there. Will try to remember next time I look at it to see what ohm reading I get form the small terminal to the starter side terminal on the starter solenoid. If an open or very high ohms maybe figure the starter mounted solenoid is bad and may have been since he had the starter rebuilt this past summer so maybe a bad new one

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newhollandnut

10-22-2015 18:39:41




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
Not sure if this will even help you in the slightest but I have a case 9040b with a 24v system and was having all kinds of electrical problems especially with starting and the batteries kept testing good but most of the time it would barely hit a lick. I took the ground off the frame used the file on my leatherman tool and got the cable and mounting point shining put back on and worked fabulous after that. Just never rule out the ground

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wijim

10-22-2015 17:12:47




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
I used to run Komatsu PC400 on down to PC200 - 5s, 6s and 7s. That solenoid thingy in the battery box, what does it do? something in my mind tells me that could be part of your problem?



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old

10-22-2015 18:25:39




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to wijim, 10-22-2015 17:12:47  
That is what is called the master power solenoid or some such thing. I know that works since when turned on as in ignition on the solenoid battery cable on the starter then has power



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JMOR

10-22-2015 15:32:20




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeYes, I see that the studs look different in size, but I can't see the holes in the cable ends, but if you say they won't fit, then they won't fit. One thing for sure on the dual coil (pull-in/hold-in) solenoids, which I fully expect this one to be, is that which ever large post has no continuity (isolated terminal) to any other terminal or ground (with no cables or wires connected) is the one that must have battery connected to it. The other big terminal will have continuity to the small terminal in this dual coil type of solenoid.

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JMOR

10-22-2015 13:39:23




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeWell, darn! The "edit" function is disabled!

Delete this part of my post: " Either swap cables on big terminals of starter solenoid OR move the smaller wire from the big terminal it is now on to the other big terminal. Either will solve problem, I believe.....I would do which ever is easier."

Just swap the cables so that Battery is on other big terminal which has the small wire on it, too. No either or as I deleted from first post.

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old

10-22-2015 14:32:44




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to JMOR, 10-22-2015 13:39:23  
I was going to swap the 2 big cables on the solenoid till I found the one from the motor part will not fit on the other post so it is made as we said in the Navy Sailor proof. So I now know that would not work



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JMOR

10-22-2015 13:14:01




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see



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JMOR

10-22-2015 12:50:08




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
Looking back at all these postings, I believe this was the error: "When I installed it I hooked the battery cable up to the only big post that did not have a wire on it ....". Battery needed to go to post with the little wire on it, as that little wire is the input power to the AUX or IMS solenoid. If you draw out the circuit, it will show how this odd behavior could occur with present wiring. Either swap cables on big terminals of starter solenoid OR move the smaller wire from the big terminal it is now on to the other big terminal. Either will solve problem, I believe.....I would do which ever is easier.

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old

10-22-2015 14:37:07




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to JMOR, 10-22-2015 12:50:08  
I think I understand what your saying and yes I have been thinking about trying that but will not get to it for a few days again. As long as it is not like the wire/cable that goes to the motor it self and it not fit on the battery post of the solenoid. In the 3rd picture you can see that the battery post of the solenoid is lager then the motor post on it



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JayinNY

10-21-2015 19:21:38




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
Old, I seem to think one time I had 12 volts on a battery, but not enought amps to start the engine? I put in new battery and it start. Did you try jump starting it? Also there's so much electrical crap on this stuff, or a mouse could have chewed on some wires ect. I just had a lawn mower battery just die, started 5 minutes earlier, drive down the street, try to start and back off trailer, nothing, we jump start it and engine 27 hp kohler starts, but will not run with dead battery, engine was missing ect after we take off jumper cables, now I have a 69 JD 112 lawn tractor that will start and run with no battery in it? There's no reason for this complicated nonsense nowadays, other than give you a headache! Lol

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old

10-21-2015 19:45:50




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to JayinNY, 10-21-2015 19:21:38  
Hard to jump start a 24 volt system with a 12 volt one LOL. Ya could jump on battery but not both at the same time unless you wanted to fry the system in the car or truck your jumping with.



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JayinNY

10-21-2015 19:48:44




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 19:45:50  
My mistake, I thought it was 12volt system, I have 2 trucks with 2 battery's each and there 12 volt.



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old

10-21-2015 21:11:05




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to JayinNY, 10-21-2015 19:48:44  
No big deal guess you have not seen the other posts on this trouble maker machine



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NCWayne

10-21-2015 19:13:21




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
After seeing the pics, and reading what else you've done since the first post, I believe the solenoid on the starter is bad. If it spins, and starts fine when jumping the posts, all your doing there is bypassing the contacts inside the solenoid. That being the case, it just about has to be that solenoid.

Given everything else you've done to this point, it would pay to pull it, and have it checked out. It wouldn't be the first time a starter was "rebuilt" and not truly "rebuilt". I know I ran into one back during the summer that had a new solenoid, and a nice, pretty paint job, and was supposedly rebuilt. When it quit working I pulled it, and opened it up. The solenoid might have been new, but the inside of the motor itself was so worn out the brushes were GONE, and the brush holders were eaten up from riding the rotor. Took it to a shop I know, had it rebuilt properly, and it works just fine.

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old

10-21-2015 19:51:07




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to NCWayne, 10-21-2015 19:13:21  
Back up a bit. Yes the starter will spin up if I go from the battery terminal post on the solenoid to the starter post but not engage the flywheel. But if the guy hits the start on the switch and I jumper from the small terminal to the starter side terminal on the starter solenoid it will start the machine which is where things are getting on the odd side since the starter post on the starter solenoid should not be getting power unless the solenoid is working correctly but but with out me doing the jumper it will sort of turn over just very slow so slow it will not start

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Guido

10-21-2015 18:24:02




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
Hello old,

I assume you are having a no crancking issue? If the starter motor just spins, the solenoid on top of the starter is either bad or is not getting enough voltage to engage it. It is what throws the bendrix drive into the flywheel. By the way the batteries are not fully charged. Voltage should be 25.4 Volts @ 80 degrees F*. Charging voltage should be a,little more @28.4Volts. There are terminals at the starter solenoid that look rusty. Clean them up and see if they were tight to start with. Is the rest of the system 24 volts? If not there must be a series parallel switch in the system. One of those terminals could be loose. If that is the case it could be the reason the starter solenoid is not getting 24 Volts and not engaging the bendix drive. Good hunting,

.

Guido

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old

10-21-2015 18:38:50




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to Guido, 10-21-2015 18:24:02  
I have taken all the cables off and wire brushed them to make sure they are clean tight and bright. If you try to start this thing the starter solenoid the one on the starter it slef will chatter and the starter will try to spin the engine over just very slow and not fast enough to start it. I can jumper from the small terminal on the starter to the NON battery bigger one and it will spin up good and start so has an odd problem in the system like maybe the solenoid that works the starter solenoid has a problem

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Guido

10-22-2015 12:56:18




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 18:38:50  
Hello old,

You need to start at the batteries. If all the cable and posts have the same voltage, check each individual battery for voltage. Also check each one when you engage the starter. Follow the positive cable and see where it goes you probably have only 12 volts when you need 24 for the starter to work. Two 12V batteries with two sets of jumpers may be a way to see that it is just bad batteries or connection.? Does the plus side of the battery go directly to the starter. The starter has to be 24 volts, the rest of the system may not be. If that is the case there should be two positive cables from each battery going to the series parallel switch.

You can use a volt meter while you energise a circuit, that can help you with the diagnosis process,

Guido.

,

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old

10-22-2015 14:42:24




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to Guido, 10-22-2015 12:56:18  
Voltage checks out as it should every where but the small terminal on the solenoid on the starter and or the ones on the 2nd solenoid. 12.5 at both batteries and 24.9 at the pair and at the battery post of the solenoid so all good till it gets to the solenoids



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hunt

10-22-2015 01:48:03




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 18:38:50  
Old,
It is most likely the solenoid on the starter is bad. Keep it simple if you have good power to the battery terminal on the starter and you have good ground to the starter it should crank buy jumping battery power to the small stud on the starter solenoid. If it won't crank this way it is in the starter solenoid. your solenoid could have a bad pull in or hold in winding causing the contacts to rapidly open and close "chatter". Voltage drop testing can be your best friend in these situations .

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Mark Robke

10-21-2015 16:21:51




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 15:28:41  
As far as I can see,you should have voltage on the small solenoid(relay)terminal from starter button when you try to start;the other terminal on the small solenoid should be good ground,the larger terminals:one should have have battery voltage at all times,and when activated the other should have voltage which it sends to the starter solenoid small terminal.When you try to start,the voltage should not drop out.On trucks,that small solenoid is called an IMS solenoid.It is to help prevent grinding the the ring gear(soft start technology).I don't know on yours,but you may need to remove that front cover on the small solenoid to access the terminals.When the small solenoid is activated,it sends voltage to the small terminal on the starter solenoid.The other small terminal should be ground and not drop out when cranking.The large cable from the battery positive is the connected internally inside the solenoid to the terminal that connects to the starter motor.The motor should then crank if it has good ground.I do not see a ground cable on your starter so it should ground thru it's mounting bolts .As long as the battery ground cable is connected to the block it should start.If you lose voltage when cranking that master disconnect switch in battery box could be suspect.Also as far as I can tell,your cables look correctly hooked up.If you do not get voltage to the small solenoid from the the starter button,I would look at neutral safety switches.It should crank if you jump the small terminal above the battery cable to the battery cable.Good luck,Mark

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old

10-21-2015 16:58:34




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to Mark Robke, 10-21-2015 16:21:51  
The bottom battery cable on the starter solenoid is only hot when the machine is turned on due to the master switch up by the batteries. It does show voltage when it is turned on. What is odd is you can jump from the top terminal on the starter solenoid and it will start up and run just fine. But the top terminal is the one that feeds the starter motor. If you jump the 2 big terminals on the starter solenoid the starter spins up but does not engage the flywheel which again I can understand that happening. Just another reason for not liking things with to much electronics on them.
The guy who owns this is going to read up in the manual about the odd error codes we got today and see if maybe we can see if they will fill in the blanks some.
Has on board computer that if you follow what the book says should say what is wrong but you have to take a week of reading to be sure what it says LOL

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Mark Robke

10-21-2015 19:45:08




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 16:58:34  
So if I understand correctly, you are jumping from the battery pos cable on the solenoid to the small primary terminal on the starter solenoid,and that makes it crank? That is the one fed by the smaller solenoid.If this what you are doing,then you need to read voltage on that terminal while trying to crank with the starter button/key.If you don't have voltage there when trying to crank,the problem is either the small solenoid or no voltage to the small solenoid when trying to crank with the starter button/key.Mark

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old

10-21-2015 19:52:59




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to Mark Robke, 10-21-2015 19:45:08  
NO to get ti to spin up and start I have the guy hold the ignition in the start position and I then jumper from the small terminal on the solenoid to the starter side of the solenoid NOT the battery side



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Mark Robke

10-21-2015 19:47:26




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to Mark Robke, 10-21-2015 19:45:08  
If you are jumping it the way I said above ,you are proving the big starter solenoid is good.Mark



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old

10-21-2015 19:56:49




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to Mark Robke, 10-21-2015 19:47:26  
If I go from the battery post on the solenoid to the starter post it will spin the starter but not engage the flywheel. If I jump from the battery post to the small terminal in the starter solenoid it will not spin up. But if he holds the ignition in the start position and I jumper from the small terminal to the starter side of the solenoid it will start the engine



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Mark Robke

10-22-2015 07:11:59




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to old, 10-21-2015 19:56:49  
Now that I understand how you are getting it to crank I'm confused on why it would crank that way,and I see why you are confused too.I would want know voltages on all the terminals when he tries the key,and probably want to see a diagram of the starting circuit.Electrically speaking,I don't see how that makes it crank the way you are getting it to crank.Maybe as NC Wayne said,the solenoid on the starter is bad;maybe trying to short or go open internally.This is why I like to read voltages on ALL terminals when trying crank.Also-did you ever disconnect the alternator like someone suggested earlier? Good luck,keep us posted,Mark.

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old

10-22-2015 14:30:09




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 Re: Komatsu Excavator Model PC200LC-6L and pictures in reply to Mark Robke, 10-22-2015 07:11:59  
I have tried to see what voltage was on each terminal and the one form the battery was 24 plus volts but none of the others have much of any voltage and one time when I was checking voltage the silly thing fired up on use. Has me thinking maybe both solenoids are bad or a wire is broken some place or some such odd thing with the computer



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