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Ford 861 or 4000?

O

old-ford-fan

Member
Trying to figure out what to call my tractor - kinda narrowed down to 1962 Ford 861 Powermaster or 1962 Ford 4000. Date stamp on top of radiator is 05/1962. Model number from trans is 41202, serial number is diamond 4xxx diamond. Engine casting code is EAE 6015-F. Pics might help. Any specific measurements I can take to help figure it out? Is it more likely that the engine and trans were changed out over the years on and 861 or the engine and sheet metal on a 4000?
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Just want to know how to dress up the front end... 800 badge and 861 Powermaster on the sides is where I am leaning at the moment.
 
It's painted like a thousand series so I would decal it as such if your just looking to dress it up
 
Problem with some of these, they can be made up of other tractors of the '55-'64 production run, but at least you can date the serial number off the flat spot on the starter, and potentially the casting numbers on the main housings.

Haven't we seen posts on that on the ford forum here, someone will post casting numbers instead of whats on the flat spot by the starter?

Diamonds preceding and following the tractor serial number are supposed to mean a sleeved engine block. On the flat spot of the starter it reads the model number "850", then the serial number preceded by and followed by diamonds. It has flat running boards per a 1955 model. If its the original sleeved block, then I know its either correct period or the actual engine it was built with, so the engine and transmission are what it left the factory with. I would assume the hydraulic and differential housings would have casting numbers that could be deciphered.

Very possible to have another engine in it or its pieced together, some of these have been given the age now.

Its not like these are matching number collectible 60's muscle cars, so the importance may just be a curiosity/novelty, but, for example older caterpillar main housing casting numbers can be deciphered, seems reasonable ford had their own system or one like it. Just throwing that out there, someone here may already have the means or information to do this, seems I've seen it before here or somewhere.
 
I wondered that too, could be that it's an 851, 5 speed with single stage clutch, or just that a previous owner had needed the length extension since they had shortened the shaft to fit with the orc on an earlier tractor
 
IDK - it came that way and I haven't removed it yet. To remove do I take out the grease fittings and drive a pin out?
I plan to get some type of rotary cutter that includes a slip clutch, if needed.
 
old-ford-fan,

I believe you have a composite tractor, not important as long as it works. The 41202 means: (4)172 ci engine, (1)1963 and later, (20)4 wheel all purpose type with adjustable front axle, (2)5 speed transmission with live pto. The serial number 4xxx makes a 1962 model 2000/4000/6000. Engine casting code EAE 6015-F denotes a 134 ci engine as used in the 600/601/2000 series tractors, the 172 ci engines used in the 800/801/4000 tractors were EAF. The over running clutch on your pto shaft should not be needed, the linkage from the clutch pedal to the clutch arm should have two holes in the front end, 1st hole (front) is for regular driving and the 2nd hole raises the clutch pedal for pto use. There should also be date stamps: on the carburetor, on the oval on the side of the bowl will be month/year; and the front of the right rear axle trumpet will have a letter (A= Jan, B= Feb,etc) then the day of the month and then the last number is the year. As you noted the sheet metal is easy to change, yours is the 800 style, the 2000/4000 style has a different grill and top center piece in front of the hood opening. All this information is the result of the research to figure out what I bought ten years ago, other people may have different answers. On your dash: the flat round plug between/below your gauges should be a metal dome with a slot facing forward with a small light bulb to poorly light the gauges and the small dome on the left bottom is the charge indicator light, which was used when your dash had a fuel gauge where the ampere gauge is now. My tractor is similar to yours and I like the "Rest-O-Ride" seat which we both have.
 
Good info.
Thanks.
A couple other features that help date the tin is the 00s had the Ford script on the sides of the hood and the 01s and 000s did not.
Also, the later 01s and all the 000s had the extra bump on the right side of the dash where the SOS pto handle went.
 


It's a 4000 R/E :note the raised ribs spanning the diff from bolt hole to bolt hole.
It appears to have the small carb.as 600/800 series but the line from the air cleaner to the carb.is 801/4000 series.
Seems to me that the 4000 series engines were parent bore blocks,no sleeves.Of course it could be over bored and sleeved.
The diamonds should be on either end of the S/N,not the model number.
 
Its a 4120 model on the model # with diamonds before and after the 4 digit serial #... for that part of the tractor. I read somewhere that the 172 ci engine has main bearings between all cylinders and the 134 ci has a main between 2 and 3. Would love to hear from someone who has tried boring a 134 oversize to make it a 172 and how that worked out
 
Good information, thanks. People have told me the engine code with the "F" at the end denotes a 1954 engine. At this point the evidence is leaning toward it being an 800 series. I am leaning toward the 861 because of the May 1962 stamp on the radiator, but they may have used the radiator out of the tractor that the transmission came out of? I will have to look around all over the tractor again in the daylight for the other numbers... hope they aren't all mismatched in years. Do you have a parts source you would recommend for the Rest-O-Ride seat? Mine has absolutely no shock absorption at the moment. Otherwise I may look to do a seat upgrade.
 
The indicator light is painted over - perhaps it can indicate something useful? The mechanic told me the engine is plum worn out with compression test of right at 90 psi in each cylinder. The oil pressure at startup is 60 psi and stays at 58-60 for a full half hour of driving around the pasture in 3rd gear with the rpm set for PTO use. Water temp goes to around 148 F and stays there. After being well warmed up the oil press goes to about 30 psi on very slow idle. No instrument light at the moment, but I plan to add one later. Maybe there is a better quality LED aftermarket one available. Haven't used the tractor at night to see how the headlights are, but that will be a whole new area to research. I like bright, but don't want to attract every bug on the place to me. There is a mystery hole below the steering wheel that I have no idea about, but plan to install a cigarette lighter or other plug in that spot for cell phone charging. I also don't know what the mystery missing electrical component was that there is a lift up cover for on the rear axle?
 
old-ford-fan- Looks like a Franentractor to me. Just add to it what makes you feel good. The hood tin looks like a X00 series, the intake manifold looks like a X000 series.

To me it's a 'Frankentractor'. You won't be able to pin "one" model identification on it..

I still think it's a nice tractor and can do a lot of work...she is just a mixture of a few tractors put together to make one tractor.
 
The only raised Ford lettering I have found is on one of the rear wheel (fender?) protective plate - one side has it, other side doesn't. I will have to research the dash bump. Thanks.
 
Thanks, I like the Cyclops look and the egg crate grill. Since its already there I will probably work with that. Its good that so many parts interchange, hopefully I won't have trouble finding parts. The fun question will be when the parts person asks me what type tractor I have.
 
It has the live PTO and the stamped model number 41202 above the serial number. If it is a 4000 series, then it has engine and front tin changed. If it is 800 series, then it is engine, radiator and rear end changed out, if 861 then engine and rear end changed. Maybe I will find other numbers as suggested and narrow it down more. I like a good mystery.
 
Well, your oil pressure is better than mine, I don't remember what the compression is any more, afraid to look. If the hole below the steering wheel is in the right side grey panel, that was originally used with the select-o-speed transmission for the PTO control knob. The hole in mine is presently used for a starter button, came that way, may be a problem with the button on the transmission, never bothered to check or change it back. I don't know what you are referring to on the rear axle electrical component, I don't have a lift up cover on mine. I just took some pictures of mine, it sleeps in the garage, as you can see I didn't clean it since I shredded some of my fields a few days ago. In no particular order: the pictures show the rear axle/seat area, starter button in the panel, instrument light dome, and under the seat from the front. On your seat, there should be a "t" handle bolt behind the seat above the rubber springs that you tighten to add more spring capacity, you can see it in the photo. Also lubricate all the moving metal parts of the seat. Just previewed this post, the photos are in reverse order. Also since I am too tall, I added a rectangular steel tube under the seat to move it up and back.
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I forgot to address your question about seat parts above. I haven't had to look for any since mine works as designed which is fine for me. If it is lubricated and the rubber "springs" are not torn or damaged, or other damage to the frame or moving parts it should work fine. I included the picture of the seat frame so you could compare to yours and see if there are differences. You speak of maybe upgrading the seat, mine is 53 years old, if you look at the padded replacement seats the plastic cover cracks and falls apart in a few years, then you replace it again.
 
Spareparts,
I see you have a hydraulic top link on your tractor.
I also have one.
Wouldn't you just about cry if you had to go back to a turn buckle type?
 
nice tractors
first one, call it whatever you like, with all those parts you can't be wrong. looks recently created.
pump bolts are fresh and the paint on it doesn't match.
those shiny screws holding the grill on....don't think that was how it was done.
If you get a chance, take a closer pic of the engine under the distributor and oilfill.......curious on what I see there.
Whether it started as a 4000 with a blown engine, or a 601 with a bad SOS, be happy with what it is now.
a 134 powered tractor with a 5-speed and an unbreakable rear.
I'll take one please.
 
> If the hole below the steering wheel is in the right side grey panel, that was originally used with the select-o-speed transmission for the PTO control knob. The hole in mine is presently used for a starter button, came that way, may be a problem with the button on the transmission, never bothered to check or change it back.
-The hole in mine is kinda a hack job pretty much right below the steering wheel, roughly halfway up on the metal. Not sure what someone had there unless it was a cigarette lighter. I don't see the charge indicator light bump below the ammeter on your tractor. I don't know the history on what tractors came with the light.

>I don't know what you are referring to on the rear axle electrical component, I don't have a lift up cover on mine.
-Attached pic with the plate lifted partway. Looks like it would handle an electrical connection - trailer light hookup?

>In no particular order: the pictures show the rear axle/seat area, starter button in the panel, instrument light dome, and under the seat from the front.
-I need to search for an instrument light at some point for mine.

>On your seat, there should be a "t" handle bolt behind the seat above the rubber springs that you tighten to add more spring capacity, you can see it in the photo. Also lubricate all the moving metal parts of the seat. Just previewed this post, the photos are in reverse order. Also since I am too tall, I added a rectangular steel tube under the seat to move it up and back.
-I like the idea of making the seat better for a over six foot driver. Found various sellers of Rest-O-Ride seat parts. The adjustment handle is kinda frozen in place, but appears to be salvageable. The rubber torsion springs have the partially dry rotted appearance, but haven't checked them closely. Found prices running from $85 - $110 a pair online for them. Probably want to replace bushings when I start reconditioning the seat parts.
 

I'm sure that what you refer to as a missing electrical component with a lift up cover is the tool box.
 
(quoted from post at 10:52:16 10/17/15)
I'm sure that what you refer to as a missing electrical component with a lift up cover is the tool box.
Click to expand...

I should have measured it - it is in the picture... maybe an inch across or so. The toolbox on the other side of the tractor looks to be a standard size for a 600/ 800/ 4000 that lifts open at one end. It is rusted out on the bottom - I may sheet metal it or just replace - probably replace.
 
>>

Found more numbers on different spots on the tractor... nothing that is an "ah ha, that's it" moment.

Radiator: NDA-B L 5 62
Conclusion: Radiator made May, 1962. Used in 800 series, probably other Ford tractors.

Engine ID Tag: Top line says "Ford Industrial Engine" - next line has "GBU-S2CL"
Conclusion: Nobody seems to know so far. N Tractor club has an owners manual online for Ford Industrial Engine, copyright 1958. The ID box shown there has more spaces than mine. With the EAE 6015-F engine casting code on the block, I will stick with the engine being a 1954 Red Tiger 134 ci unless something tells me otherwise.

Number below engine casting code: Diamond 38N2
Conclusion: What does this mean?

Schebler carb: hard to read, looks like NA VE2, but makes no sense.
Conclusion: number I need from carb may be on the back side, but since I just got fuel leaks fixed I am not fiddling with it.

Axle housing: NDA 4012C B
Conclusion: Axle housing used in Ford 600/ 800 series, couldn't find if used in 1962 Ford 4000 series.

Numbers under seat when seat flipped up: "NGA 501 B 86K:"
Conclusion: Casting code for hydraulic lift cover? Unknown?
 
You are right, I found a deal on a 8 or 9 ft(don't know how to measure) hyd lift disc. So I tracked down a hyd valve for power beyond so I could use the disc, then I thought, why not a hyd upper link. The only way you will get it away from me is to steal it and you better be faster than a bullet! Don't know how I got along without it.
 
Ah, the game continues, good. I took some more pictures tonight (still didn't wash the tractor, sorry), one shows
the carb with the egg(?) shaped, raised identification area (center of picture, cleaned!!) with the date code stamped
in the front, skinny section. Mine shows 7 58, and the carb model number on the rounder part. Also a closer picture
of the date on the right rear axle trumpet, directly below the end of the orange tape, mine shows A292, Jan. 29,1962.
I also have a Franken tractor, mine was a diesel originally and the engine, fuel tank, dash etc. were changed. My
dash is the older 600/601 type, the charge indicator light was used with the 172 ci engine/13 gallon fuel tank with
fuel gauge. You are correct that the round gauges were used through 1964, Ford just changed from 801 to 4000 to
confuse the innocent. I also looked in my Ford Parts Catalog, 1953-1959, the EAE 134 engine block and EAF 172 engine
block have different part numbers but the crankshaft is the same, only difference in crankshafts is diesel or gas. I
would surmise from that specification that there are the same number of main bearings in both engines. I also took
another picture of the rear showing the black plastic box on the fender below the red tool box. I got the box from
Radio Shack and wired it for trailer tail lights and directional lights through the four pin plug and a separate
toggle switch for the rectangular work light on the right fender. I should have put in another flasher for four way
flashing but didn't bother. I also ran wire back on my hyd lift disc with tail/directional lights on the back and an
amber strobe on the left rear corner to warn motorists. Too much time on my hands?
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(quoted from post at 21:29:25 10/17/15) Ah, the game continues, good. I took some more pictures tonight (still didn't wash the tractor, sorry), one shows the carb with the egg(?) shaped, raised identification area (center of picture, cleaned!!) with the date code stamped
in the front, skinny section. Mine shows 7 58, and the carb model number on the rounder part.
>>I will take another closer look again at the carb in the daylight. It may be time to rebuild it in the near future, unless there is some super replacement carb that I don't know about?

Also a closer picture of the date on the right rear axle trumpet, directly below the end of the orange tape, mine shows A292, Jan. 29,1962.
>>Thanks for the picture, it helps. I will crawl under mine and look for numbers.

I also have a Franken tractor, mine was a diesel originally and the engine, fuel tank, dash etc. were changed. My dash is the older 600/601 type, the charge indicator light was used with the 172 ci engine/13 gallon fuel tank with fuel gauge.
>>I like the dash layout, though I would like to have a fuel gauge located somewhere at some point.

You are correct that the round gauges were used through 1964, Ford just changed from 801 to 4000 to confuse the innocent. I also looked in my Ford Parts Catalog, 1953-1959, the EAE 134 engine block and EAF 172 engine block have different part numbers but the crankshaft is the same, only difference in crankshafts is diesel or gas. I would surmise from that specification that there are the same number of main bearings in both engines.
>>Excellent to know, I will definitely consider increasing the bore to make a 172 if/when I need to rebuild the engine.

I also took another picture of the rear showing the black plastic box on the fender below the red tool box. I got the box from Radio Shack and wired it for trailer tail lights and directional lights through the four pin plug and a separate
toggle switch for the rectangular work light on the right fender. I should have put in another flasher for four way
flashing but didn't bother. I also ran wire back on my hyd lift disc with tail/directional lights on the back and an amber strobe on the left rear corner to warn motorists. Too much time on my hands?
>>Be glad when I get to do some add on stuff. Picked up an adapter kit today to convert to spin on oil filter. Having starting problems now - cranked, then wouldn't crank, then cranked and started when jumped, then ran really rough for a minute or so, let run about ten minutes, then wouldn't crank when I tried to start again. Didn't try to jump start again. Pulled out battery and took to town to be tested - good volts and amps. Only a 550 cca battery, but I would think plenty for 4 cyl fairly low compression engine? Anyone suggest higher cca?
Going to replace battery cable terminal connectors hopefully tomorrow, spray the connections, check connection tightness, etc. Solenoid looks to be fairly new, but might be tempted to replace it anyway. Need to obtain and change out starter switch in the near future because it either doesn't work or has issues - key start at the moment, no starter switch and the tractor will move if it is in gear with the clutch out and key engaged - not great. Sigh.
Click to expand...
 
You must have a real Ford, needs repair already! ;-)

It is 1 am here so just a quick note. The starter switch on the transmission can be tested by putting a test lead
from a meter or test light to a positive source and the other lead to the connection on the front of the push button
switch, all the push button does is provide ground to activate the solenoid, providing the transmission is in
neutral. I should have asked if yours is 6 or 12 volt, positive or negative ground? Anyway the fine people who
provide this site sell parts and manuals to help support our habit. If you go to the top of the page and click on
Ford at the top right, then 801, then electrical system, you will find a key switch near the top and a starter
solenoid about half way down. Lots of other useful stuff on here. If you haven't bought manuals yet I can provide a
basic wiring diagram to get you started. The big Ford Tractor Shop Manual 1955-1960 that they sell here has proven
very useful to me. The starter solenoid for use with the original starter push button has 4 posts, the one on your
tractor may only have 3 with the key switch. Electrical is not my forte but I stumble through with help from the
manuals. One more thing, the Ford board down below is where a lot of the mechanically minded Ford people hang
around, you may want to pick their brains also. I prefer to troubleshoot and repair than throw parts at it and hope,
I think it is cheaper. I will give some thought to your troubles tomorrow. Oh, the carb is simple, disassemble soak
in a carb cleaning solution can from your favorite auto parts store and re-assemble with a kit from YT.
 
You must have a real Ford, needs repair already! ;-)

>But I like the tractor, so more fun to repair. Hate dumping time and money into equipment I don't like just to feel like I have to keep using to get return of investment.

It is 1 am here so just a quick note. The starter switch on the transmission can be tested by putting a test lead from a meter or test light to a positive source and the other lead to the connection on the front of the push button switch, all the push button does is provide ground to activate the solenoid, providing the transmission is in neutral.

>Ordered a new starter switch, plug wires and solenoid from this site since they are pretty cheap for new parts. Sometimes I fix the existing parts (like I am doing for the battery cables) and sometimes I just replace. Bad solenoids just irritate me - I went through two of them on a new pull behind mower, third time I put a truck solenoid on it to be heavy duty.

I should have asked if yours is 6 or 12 volt, positive or negative ground?

>I should have said - 12 volt, negative ground with a new in appearance alternator.

Anyway the fine people who provide this site sell parts and manuals to help support our habit. If you go to the top of the page and click on Ford at the top right, then 801, then electrical system, you will find a key switch near the top and a starter solenoid about half way down. Lots of other useful stuff on here. If you haven't bought manuals yet I can provide a basic wiring diagram to get you started.

>Glad to hear that they are fine folks. Ordered the above mentioned parts from them last night along with a maintenance DVD and tune up booklet. I am eyeing the new and rebuilt carbs (at least one of which is suitable for 600 and 800 series - so still use if I up the engine to 172 ci performance, other models say improvement over original carb - will research before buying one. The existing carb is probably OK though it needs new needle valve as existing one was corrected with a hammer to make it seat properly). Also thinking about switching to electronic ignition at some point - points and plugs appear fairly new so I have some time there.

The big Ford Tractor Shop Manual 1955-1960 that they sell here has proven very useful to me.

>Ordered a Manual that covers 1953-1964 600 to 4000 models which should be here tomorrow. Wanted something that covered the parts in the tractor that I know about so far.

The starter solenoid for use with the original starter push button has 4 posts, the one on your tractor may only have 3 with the key switch. Electrical is not my forte but I stumble through with help from the manuals.

>Thanks - I will mess with it after the new switch and starter button arrive. Electrical on the tractor seems pretty easy so far, plus shouldn't have to hang upside down like under a car dash :)

One more thing, the Ford board down below is where a lot of the mechanically minded Ford people hang around, you may want to pick their brains also. I prefer to troubleshoot and repair than throw parts at it and hope, I think it is cheaper. I will give some thought to your troubles tomorrow. Oh, the carb is simple, disassemble soak in a carb cleaning solution can from your favorite auto parts store and re-assemble with a kit from YT.
>I will most likely just replace the carb with a new or rebuilt one that will work with either the 134 or a 172 ci engine, rather than rebuild mine. Not sure yet.
 
I didn't read down through everyone's replies.

I noticed a ORC on the PTO. If it doesn't have live power it would be a 851 not an 861.
 
(quoted from post at 11:37:03 10/18/15) I didn't read down through everyone's replies.

I noticed a ORC on the PTO. If it doesn't have live power it would be a 851 not an 861.
Click to expand...
>markct suggested previous owner may have put the ORC on there to extend the length.

>The trans is from a 1962 Ford 4000, according to the 41202 model number stamp and 4xxx serial number.
On the left side below the seat is large raised lettering "2H10" and below that is "CONN 4024 F" and what appears to be "E212" on the front of the left trumpet.
>Does anyone know what the 2H10 above the CONN 4024 F on the left side of the tractor below the seat translates to?

>According to the post by SparepartsTN, the trumpet stamp if E212 would mean May 21, 1962 - the Radiator date stamp of May 1962 may or may not mean something?

>I am still stumped on the ID plate attached to the engine:
Top line: "Ford Industrial Engine"
box on second line is stamped "GBU-S2CL" - any ideas?
Casting code on the block on other side of engine is "EAE 6015-F" which everyone seems to agree is 1954 134 ci.
 
>Changed the battery cable terminals this morning - the tractor starts and runs better now!

>Someone partially stripped the bolt coming out of the starter where the wire connects, so that is my next project - to fix that into a tight connection. Then probably the spin on oil filter kit - any suggestions for that?

>As far as the starter button the wire at the top front has been cut completely off... grrr - will address that when replacement button arrives. From what I have read the trans plate has to be removed and there is a spring that is easy to lose - may save that project for the mechanic?
 
Had a devil of a time figuring out the carb model. It is a Marvin Schebler TSX 484 - used on stuff like International tractors and F162 Continental General Industrial engines. Carb runs $225 to $375 for reman. Not sure why it ended up on this tractor?

Anyone have suggestions on what to use for replacement carb? Are the Zenith carbs worth the extra money - do they outperform as they claim?
 
The stamp on the rear axle trumpet is either 4013C or 4013G. The 4013C is consistent with the tractor being an 800 series, which is what you smart guys on here told me - so I will plan on decorating as a 800 model, with the numbering to reflect the 5 speed with live PTO. I think I will badge and decal as an 861 Powermaster seeing as how I have so much 1962 parts in the tractor.
 
>If the hole below the steering wheel is in the right side grey panel, that was originally used with the select-o-speed transmission for the PTO control knob. The hole in mine is presently used for a starter button, came that way, may be a problem with the button on the transmission, never bothered to check or change it back.

>>Just got a Ford 1953-1964 parts manual yesterday. Your dash looks like the 1953/57 drawing, which does not have the charge indicator light. Mine looks like the 58 forward layout, except that my charge indicator light is painted over and there an ammeter where the gas gauge should be. Mine has no trans warning light for the select-o-speed. I have a pull out light switch in the spot where your starter switch is located. I assume with the one gallon gas reserve an ammeter seemed a lot more important to someone than a fuel gauge.
 
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