One would never have imagined at 13 in the Local 4H that some day I would be installing a Starter, Fuel transfer pump, Alternator, Exhaust Manifold and muffler on Tuesday on a Massey Ferguson 35 X..........
On Thursday, Inspection and signing off the 2000 Hr inspection Log Book on a Rolls Royce Spey
Last week I was asked to perform Borescope inspections on two General electric J79/LM1500
The Mechanical Tech. world of today can cover a wide spectrum.

Bob...

Back when you were 13, they still had mechanics. Today, it seems that all we have is a guy who looks in a book, or on a computer, and replaces whatever part it tells him to change. Years ago, a mechanic would diagnose the problem, then fix it, not just flop a new part on.

J79s? I hear the howl of an F-4J on a low pass in full burner. What are they in? I thought they were all in a boneyard somewhere, like I should be.

I spent 3 1/2 years. Hearing F4s land on my ship. One sound you never forget.

Most mechanics today. Couldn't change a light bulb. Unless a computer told them how.

45 years ago you would have repaired the generator, starter, and fuel pump rather than replacing them.

(quoted from post at 13:34:57 09/10/15) 45 years ago you would have repaired the generator, starter, and fuel pump rather than replacing them.

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Yes that is how it was done back then, because that was the cheapest way to do it for the customer. Then it became possible to buy a rebuilt, or even new, starter, generator, etc. for the same amount as the parts and labor to repair the original, and the new or rebuilt unit came with a one year warranty. Suddenly it became less costly for the customer to do it that way. So now, the mechanics are no longer needed. All we need now is parts changers.

The sad thing is that now days replacing a part is often the only way to diagnose, and hopefully fix a problem. I know in the equipment world, Komatsu in particular, often has a step in the troubleshooting flowchart that will get you to a point and then say, "Replace with known good part". From there it goes back into the troubleshooting by asking whether the problem went away or not, and what to do next if it didn't.

In these cases, as well as others, the OEM doesn't give any kind of guide, or even specifications, to check certain critical parts, changing them is often necessary because there's no way to really know whether the part is good or not.

That said, I HATE BEING FORCED TO FIX ANYTHING LIKE THAT. I much rather being able to find an actual problem, and THEN change a part if needed, not just change a part and hope it fixes the problem....and then change another if it doesn't.

In the end I was always taught the greatest computer was the one between your ears. Once you learn to use it, it's not that hard to troubleshoot a problem and get if fixed. Unfortunately too many
technicians', NOT mechanics, now days let the digital computer do the work and forget that they need to use their brain.

The ones I heard the most of was the old F-14. Slept close to the fan tail if the JFK and every time one trapped you heard it. Back hatch to me sleepy quarters opens out to a walk way 2 decks below the flight deck

That has to be one of the most ignorant statements ever made. Cars and tractors are a hundred times more complicated than the "good old days." A modern car has more wiring in one door than a 1970 model has in the whole car.

(quoted from post at 12:00:43 09/10/15) Back when you were 13, they still had mechanics. Today, it seems that all we have is a guy who looks in a book, or on a computer, and replaces whatever part it tells him to change. Years ago, a mechanic would diagnose the problem, then fix it, not just flop a new part on.

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Spend some more time researching in a good shop and you will find out otherwise. I would like to see a mechanic who doesn't look in a book. As a matter of fact I would bet people would be more mad if mechanics didn't look in the computer as the hours spent diagnosing without would jack their bill up quite nicely

I've peeked at a few turbine blades while in the Navy. Our P3 Orion Planes had the turbo prop engines. I worked in the check crew. When the planes came in for scheduled inspections the turbine blades were checked. The good old days. Stan

I would challenge some of those wanna be mechanics to try and make a living at it...

They could not but can run those down that can...

The reason they associate with parts re-placers is they are to cheap to go to someone knows how to fix it...

Most dealer mechanics can not make it in the real world that's why they are a dealer mechanic and always will be they need someone else to lean on...

I get my fair share of work for aviation mechanics do all of them need someone to unzip there fly and hold it for them while they do there businesses...

(quoted from post at 18:34:16 09/10/15) I would challenge some of those wanna be mechanics to try and make a living at it...

They could not but can run those down that can...

The reason they associate with parts re-placers is they are to cheap to go to someone knows how to fix it...

Most dealer mechanics can not make it in the real world that's why they are a dealer mechanic and always will be they need someone else to lean on...

I get my fair share of work for aviation mechanics do all of them need someone to unzip there fly and hold it for them while they do there businesses...

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so im curious to know what data you have to back this up? i work at a JD dealer, just started and still in highschool so by no means a pro nor do i claim to know even it all, i know more than the average person but thats about it. The evidence i have seems to go against your opinion, as 5 or 6 of the mechanics we employ at the dealer used to be what we call free agents, in other words they had their own shop. they had to sell out and get a dealer job becuase they no longer had the knowledge base ( think computers here) or the parts resources to work on newer tractors, and the old tractors were not enough to keep them going, this is their words.

the guys who never owned their own shop and have been dealer mechanics all their life are right on par with the free agents. sure they dont know all the tricks of the trade on the newer stuff but then again the free agents dont know all the tricks on the new stuff, so there is a good trade off with that.

i am also not so sure who or what you are talking about when you say all dealer mechanics need someone to lean on? we all have a computer, on this computer are 3 programs 1. is parts manager pro, we use this to spec prices for customers when we are giving them quotes on how much a repair is going to cost. 2. service manager pro- we use this to get things such as torque specs and quantities of fluids or what types of lubricants to use, sometimes it will have specific directions on how to fix things, havent seen anything about diagnosing on this program but i am not saying there isnt any in their either. 3. JD service and repair- we use this for warranty work, we diagnose a problem with a machine and if its under warranty we use this program to communicate with higher powers who tell us what they want to do, rather it be replace a part under warranty, diagnose other things, or make specific repairs to the machine.
the service manager and mobile technicians also get JD LINK installed on their computers, this is much like gm's onstar in that it lets us monitor almost every parameter of a tractor anywhere in the world, such as hours, rpm, engine temp trans or hydraulic temp, literally everything. i know for a fact that we can monitor tractors we fixed that were imported to africa, i believe there are 3 of them there at the moment. these are 4 very important resources that the independent mechanic doesnt have unless he is a certified john deere dealer.

(quoted from post at 16:03:33 09/10/15) That has to be one of the most ignorant statements ever made. Cars and tractors are a hundred times more complicated than the "good old days." A modern car has more wiring in one door than a 1970 model has in the whole car.

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Well said Joe Mindy and blue924.9

(quoted from post at 12:00:43 09/10/15) Back when you were 13, they still had mechanics. Today, it seems that all we have is a guy who looks in a book, or on a computer, and replaces whatever part it tells him to change. Years ago, a mechanic would diagnose the problem, then fix it, not just flop a new part on.

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Well back then, without much in the way of diagnostics they more or less guessed at what was wrong. Failures were more common and cars lasted 100,000 miles or so. Today the scan tool/computer tells them what's wrong. But the day of the mechanic actually fixing a starter or alternator was already dying in the late 70's. Heck about 1981 I was going to rebuild the carburetor on my IH Scout. Went to order the kit and it was about 2 bucks cheaper than a reman carb. Now add in cleaners and time? But hey, if you are willing to pay scale I'll fix stuff for you rather than replace it! :lol: I know a guy who's retiring next year. Been a mechanic his whole life. He loves computerized cars because time to diagnose a problem is very short and that means he can get more repairs done in a day.

Rick

(quoted from post at 19:03:33 09/10/15) That has to be one of the most ignorant statements ever made. Cars and tractors are a hundred times more complicated than the "good old days." A modern car has more wiring in one door than a 1970 model has in the whole car.

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Very true, I started this career around the time the electronic controls started getting good, OBD-II, multiplex wiring circuits, CAN/BUS module communications and all the other good stuff. Even base engines now are complex compared to old school stuff. today's engines make more power, more efficient, and cleaner. I can't say I like all the invasive controls and emissions though.

2000 hrs plus riding a pair of J79's in a McDonnell Phantom II

The repair trade has changed a lot. I use to repair starters, solder radiators, and reline brake shoes. Now you just toss the old part and put on a new part.

All the specialized equipment you need. makes It impossible for the independent shop to survive. The money invested in special tools can not be recovered before the machine is outdated the the tool is useless.

I knew a tech that worked for Allis Chalmers. When the AC dealer closed, Milt opened his own tractor repair shop. It was doing good business. At one time he had four guys working under him. The problem was he was not getting paid. He told me not long before he closed he had $80,000 uncollected on the books!

Dad left the John deere dealer to open his own shop. He soon was having the same problem, farmer's not paying. He stopped working on any tractor larger than a 560. This was to reduce the amount of unpaid bills and special tools/equipment Started doing more air cooled engines and later sold lawn mowers.

Anybody that thinks a scan tool tells you what's failed on a vehicle has never used one or repaired a modern vehicle. There is MUCH more to diagnosing a problem then reading a code. And, in my opinion, getting $80,000 behind in unpaid repairs shows that you're not a good business owner, although he may be a very good mechanic

Hi NC

I just love some of these older MF and Deere tractors that get hyd problems. The book gives a whole process of tests. Then tells you to fix problem A if you find it before proceeding to test B and so on. Ive had a few where the test showed big problems in 2 or 3 steps. you just get to the point of pulling other components in the system and looking in them for damage without doing the tests.Then maybe telling the guy his tractors going to cost a fortune to repair right. I can't guarantee the rest of it like motor or trans won't pile up after spending 6000 on parts/time for the original problem on a $5-$10.000 beat worn out tractor. Those guys appreciate the honesty, and will usually just move on to another machine, I had a couple recently do that and bought new.

Progress is gradually putting us guys out of business, but I got other interests in my farming, older rarer antique tractors and getting into custom backhoe loader work again. I'm getting to the point of not enjoying fixing some of these things for guys, especially with parts supply problems/costs. Plus when my own equipment service/ repairs are always 20 down the list. My stuff starts to look and run like their junk they don't look after until it don't work anymore, as I don't have time to do it all when the phone keeps ringing.
Regards Robert

What fits the R.R. Spey?

I've put 6000+ hours on various pairs of Rolls (Allison) AE3007A1 and A1/3's. Never broke one, just one or two no starts and a couple of aborts due to weak air supply. Very easy to get along with. Thank You, FADECs.


As for codes and parts changing and all that's in the rest of this thread, with modern cars you need the computer and the codes to speed things up and get you on the right path. Then you need the information to be able to troubleshoot the individual parts (if it's worth the time).
Earlier this year I struggled with an intermittent no-start on my 99 suburban. It would crank and crank and then hit once or twice or chug for few seconds. I have the full set of Helm manuals for it and all the troubleshooting flowcharts and code explanations. Only thing is that it gave _no codes_! After many hours of doing this and that procedure (and changing the intake gaskets: it still had the originals and they were starting to leak water) it turned out to be a bad distributor cap. Fortunately the only other part I had thrown at it was the ignition module after it tested kinda weak. For some reason it ran fine for about a week and then the problem re-appeared. Once the new distributor cap went on it was all sunshine and lollipops once again.

So, I'm glad I have a little scan tool to speed things up on my two newer cars but sometimes there's a failure that requires old school logic and troubleshooting to find.

I understand that in today's world. Some parts are changed because there is no way to test them. But a mechanic should still be able to understand why he changed it.Not just tell the customer,because the computer/book said to.

I see that there are a number of folks on here that are very critical of mechanics. Here is my take for what it is worth...

First off, the statement about dealer mechanics being dependent is just plain WRONG. I was a dealer mechanic for a good number of years. The up side of being a dealer mechanic is that you have access to ALL of the special tools recommended by the manufacturer. You have access to ALL of the accompanying literature and service information. You have access to proprietary parts. AND, you have the full support of the manufacturer. These are all tools that make most repair work simpler and more efficient. That benefits the customer. The down side is that dealers are EXPENSIVE. Overpriced in my opinion. Also keep in mind that the dealer mechanic is intimately familiar with one make. The independent has to know a little about a lot of different makes. Remember that old saying about a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.....

Next, as to repair versus replacement: As previously stated, the difference between a guaranteed rebuilt and repairing the old unit in cost is minimal. The difference in logistics is major. Take an alternator for example. Fair to state that today's alternators are very reliable. They also take shop time to repair. Parts inventory to do repair work increases by orders of magnitude. Customer's vehicle is tied up for possibly days rather than minutes for a repair. Replacement is quick and efficient and does not take up a lot of shop time. So, as a customer, would you rather have the shop change out your alternator in an hour or repair yours which could take hours if the parts are in stock or days if the parts have to be ordered?

Next, this whole bit about scanners and computers being required for repairs.....
A scanner will read a trouble code. This code will tell you what circuit or section of the system is malfunctioning. It still takes diagnostic skills to troubleshoot that circuit and repair it. This has not changed from even 1930s cars. Just different equipment. Older equipment needed things like tachometers, dwell meters, growlers, amp meters, and the like. Today's equipment takes tools as well, just different - and for the most part more efficient.

My biggest objection to some of the modern electronics is the use of RFID technology. Any more you need a fortune in equipment to replace what should be a simple sensor, but in fact requires re-flashing the computer. To my way of thinking, this is overkill and over complication. Seems to be the manufacturer attempt to lock out the independent repairmen. This will come around full circle at some point. Third party repair facilities as well as customers will get fed up and it will once again go to court and the manufacturers will have to give access to repair information.

(quoted from post at 18:11:33 09/11/15) I understand that in today's world. Some parts are changed because there is no way to test them. But a mechanic should still be able to understand why he changed it.Not just tell the customer,because the computer/book said to.

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I would like one of those puters that talk and tell me what to do.

The problem is as you said you have to interpret the data even then it may be open ended then you have to confirm the inputs and out puts and the health of the system... You will have to study the operating system to get a handle on how to interpret the data and how the system functions...

The public sooner are later will have to accept (because they are the root cause) they can spend there money on a parts replacer are pay someone that knows what he is doing...

You answered it in your reply...

One thing you have in your corner is you will have to embrace new technology you have no other choice other than find something else to do... If you embrace it and get good at it you will move to the top of the food chain :wink:

I had one of those puters. I called it yes dear or honey. What ever got me out of trouble.

I get my fair share of work for aviation mechanics do all of them need someone to unzip there fly and hold it for them while they do there businesses...[/quote]

I wonder how many hobo's in NC are stupid?