Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
I find this article difficult to believe. I won't be around in 2040 to see if it really works. If it does, there will be an end to some jobs and a birth for new ones.
renewable energy
renewable energy
- Thread starter Geo-TH,In
- Start date
I'm not ready to hop on the solar bandwagon. People are forgetting some basic things as far as solar goes.
1. Creating them takes a lot of energy, and requires quite a few caustic chemicals that have to be disposed of.
2. Disposal is toxic. While some parts can be recycled, not all can, and recycling plants are few and far between. Then you still have to dispose of the hazardous material.
3. One good hail storm, and "oops".
4. In the event of heavy winds such as found in tornado's and hurricanes, who wants to add more glass to the picture?
I don't believe solar is the future. It's expensive, and even once it's cheap it takes up a lot of space. It requires and is based a whole lot on batteries, and big ones, assuming you want to have electricity at night as well.
Solar excels in one way. It's a one step process. Direct light energy to electric energy. Every other form of production is a two step process. Heat energy to mechanical energy to electric energy, by means of heating water, spinning turbines, and creating electricity. Once we can skip the mechanical part and go directly from heat to electricity, that is where the electrical revolution will occur.
It's happening already, and it's called a thermal diode. However it is not efficient enough, it is expensive to make and doesn't provide much electricity, yet. The technology isn't there, but it will be. Think, your engine's heat is instead of being blown away, converted to electrical energy. Goodbye alternator. In the summer, the heat is turned into electricity in your home. Good bye air conditioner and good bye electric bill.
At that point, it will be however you can create heat the cheapest. Right now, it's nuclear power, but in 20-30 years, it'll be fission. Splitting an atom creates an enormous amount of heat energy, heating up thousands of thermal diodes without wasting energy by changing it's form multiple times.
Here is a rudimentary thermal diode at work:
http://www.amazon.com/Caframo-Ecofan-Alcona-Powered-Stove/dp/B00GXHUCQQ
Notice: i have one, it won't blow out a candle. It is neat though. It just died last winter after 3 years.
1. Creating them takes a lot of energy, and requires quite a few caustic chemicals that have to be disposed of.
2. Disposal is toxic. While some parts can be recycled, not all can, and recycling plants are few and far between. Then you still have to dispose of the hazardous material.
3. One good hail storm, and "oops".
4. In the event of heavy winds such as found in tornado's and hurricanes, who wants to add more glass to the picture?
I don't believe solar is the future. It's expensive, and even once it's cheap it takes up a lot of space. It requires and is based a whole lot on batteries, and big ones, assuming you want to have electricity at night as well.
Solar excels in one way. It's a one step process. Direct light energy to electric energy. Every other form of production is a two step process. Heat energy to mechanical energy to electric energy, by means of heating water, spinning turbines, and creating electricity. Once we can skip the mechanical part and go directly from heat to electricity, that is where the electrical revolution will occur.
It's happening already, and it's called a thermal diode. However it is not efficient enough, it is expensive to make and doesn't provide much electricity, yet. The technology isn't there, but it will be. Think, your engine's heat is instead of being blown away, converted to electrical energy. Goodbye alternator. In the summer, the heat is turned into electricity in your home. Good bye air conditioner and good bye electric bill.
At that point, it will be however you can create heat the cheapest. Right now, it's nuclear power, but in 20-30 years, it'll be fission. Splitting an atom creates an enormous amount of heat energy, heating up thousands of thermal diodes without wasting energy by changing it's form multiple times.
Here is a rudimentary thermal diode at work:
http://www.amazon.com/Caframo-Ecofan-Alcona-Powered-Stove/dp/B00GXHUCQQ
Notice: i have one, it won't blow out a candle. It is neat though. It just died last winter after 3 years.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Only place solar and wind has a practical application is remote areas without electric grid connections. An unreliable grid connection or an over priced electrical connection.
Hawaii, just about any island and much of the 3rd world.
The problem is that solar panels only work six to eight hours at most a day. Not a whole lot afternoons, evenings, nights,mornings, during cloudy weather or during short winter days.
Contrary to popular belief there is now low cost high density batteries that can store significant power.
If you visit a "green" building you will find a gas stove, gas fridge, gas water heater, gas or wood furnace and gas water clothes dryer. The electrical load will be a few lights, a microwave and a TV. That folks is a fossil powered house, not a solar house.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Even a normal winter will have the panels snow covered for days at a time.
gtractorfan
Well-known Member
I say hogwash. During the winter months in the Midwest we go for long stretches of gloomy weather as in no sunshine. Sure there are areas like the southwest that are typically sunnier but that won't be enough. We are within sight of a bunch of windmills. Every once in a while they're stock still. I joke that no one needs electricity at the time. The last part of the link cancels credibility to the rest, to me.
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
I am retired from the power industry. People in this country are in for a big shock. If they think solar and wind are the future of power.Main
problems I see. Solar no sun no power.Wind speed to high 8mph last I heard. Windmill shuts down.
problems I see. Solar no sun no power.Wind speed to high 8mph last I heard. Windmill shuts down.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
Follow the money. When things don't make sense follow the money. When things seem too good to be true follow the money. ..............follow the money. Somebody is making money somewhere on the deal or it wouldn't be pushed like it is.......and/or somebody is buying votes. And that's follow the money also. Think about it.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
In the late 1970s, personal computers were little more than expensive toys. There was no internet, no cell phones and data was transmitted over voice lines at 300 baud. For most people, the idea that only 40 years later average people would carry a device with greater processing power than a seventies mainframe was inconceivable. It was preposterous to think that such devices around the world would be seamlessly connected so someone in Mongolia could communicate with someone in the Amazon jungle as easily as you could talk to your next door neighbor. Yet here we are. No one accurately predicted how things would be in the twenty-first century, but those who had their ears to the rail could tell that technology would be a huge game changer.
So why, then, is it so unlikely that we'll see such a dramatic change with renewable energy? The assertions in the article aren't so much predictions as observations about what is happening today and extrapolations about where current trends are heading. Computers became ubiquitous when computer processing power became dirt cheap and very small. Meanwhile, the more ubiquitous computers became, the greater the demand for them. The result of these two trends led to an exponential growth in computer technology.
I don't think renewable energy is much different: the technology is getting cheaper every day, and there is an increasing demand to get off fossil fuels and reduce energy consumption. Don't assume the slow growth in renewable energy over the past fifty years is indicative of where it will go in the next twenty. In 1979 we still typed out our programs on Hollerith punch cards, technology that predated digital computers. Yet only twenty-five years later the internet exploded.
So why, then, is it so unlikely that we'll see such a dramatic change with renewable energy? The assertions in the article aren't so much predictions as observations about what is happening today and extrapolations about where current trends are heading. Computers became ubiquitous when computer processing power became dirt cheap and very small. Meanwhile, the more ubiquitous computers became, the greater the demand for them. The result of these two trends led to an exponential growth in computer technology.
I don't think renewable energy is much different: the technology is getting cheaper every day, and there is an increasing demand to get off fossil fuels and reduce energy consumption. Don't assume the slow growth in renewable energy over the past fifty years is indicative of where it will go in the next twenty. In 1979 we still typed out our programs on Hollerith punch cards, technology that predated digital computers. Yet only twenty-five years later the internet exploded.
I have to seriously doubt the validity of any research which still identifies ''global warming'' as the most perilous threat facing man kind. Serious R&D from the private sector to develop cost efficient wind and solar will not happen unless there is demand and money to be made, which there currently is not, hence we had multiple obammy backed government stimulus financed scams that went bust and cost the tax payers trillions.
Tractorcedric
Member
- Location
- Garland. Utah
I'm 62 and I have seen a lot of changes. I am always looking for useful information on here. I think that technology compounds itself. So the future holds many options. We can look for a replacement for fossil fuel, but the WHEEL may become obsolete before we do! Don't laugh. I remember laughing when a teacher told us about a fax machine.
So Billy if you have a cloudy and windy day then neither soar or wind would be working???? That is the biggest issue with all this "renewable" energy. You still have to have conventional generation to carry the load during the times the wind and solar do not work.
The only reliable renewable electric generation at this time is hydro electric plants but the tree huggers seem to hate them as much as conventional plants.
So I guess we will have to learn to only need light during the day and shut everything down at night.
The only reliable renewable electric generation at this time is hydro electric plants but the tree huggers seem to hate them as much as conventional plants.
So I guess we will have to learn to only need light during the day and shut everything down at night.
CenTex Farmall
Well-known Member
This past winter and the winter before we had a period of more than a solid week of 100% overcast skies right here in central Texas. There were others times of overcast that lasted for 2 or 3 days at a stretch.
I'm sure there were other years two but I've been paying particular attention to length of cloudy spells since I did some looking into Solar a couple of years ago.
I'm sure there were other years two but I've been paying particular attention to length of cloudy spells since I did some looking into Solar a couple of years ago.
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
Very interesting article, thanks!
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
But it's OK to subsidize the dirty coal and petroleum industries? You can spend it on clean energy or you can spend it on increased medical care because of pollution, take your pick!!!
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
You need to do some fresh research! I just google it and most new windmills produce power with wind from 8 -55 mph.
I can see us all getting some, or at least part of our power from solar panels, it is at least more reliable than wind, solar panels do not need complete direct sun to generate power, unlike wind turbines that have to have low enough winds or wind that is not too high to generate any power at all, plus solar panels do not explode or throw ice or parts and pieces up to a quarter mile when they fail. Our township is about to be invaded by turbines, nice way to destroy the country side for heavily tax subsidized windmills that do not generate enough power to actually pay for their own construction without our tax money.
OP
OP
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
Russ from MN,
Three years ago I got histoplasmosis. X rays shows I have many black spots in my lungs. I asked Dr's why? Answer, Welcome to Indiana. A high percentage of us have black spots because of, according to the medical community, coal. My brothers also have black spots. We all grew up on a farm. We all spent time diesel tractors. Some call diesel exhaust blue lung. To this day, I can't stand to be around diesel exhaust without getting a headache.
Three years ago I got histoplasmosis. X rays shows I have many black spots in my lungs. I asked Dr's why? Answer, Welcome to Indiana. A high percentage of us have black spots because of, according to the medical community, coal. My brothers also have black spots. We all grew up on a farm. We all spent time diesel tractors. Some call diesel exhaust blue lung. To this day, I can't stand to be around diesel exhaust without getting a headache.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> How many billions (trillions?) of taxpayer dollars were spent developing personal computers, cell phones, internet technology, etc., etc., etc. in the 1970s?
Lots. Computer and microelectronics technology was largely driven by aerospace and defense programs. And let's not forget the push in the sixties and seventies for science, math and engineering education, which resulted in a huge pool of technology workers, many of whom became the entrepreneurs behind personal computing. The internet was originally ARPANET and was developed by the Department of Defense. Frequency-hopping technologies fundamental to cell phones were originally developed for military use.
Lots. Computer and microelectronics technology was largely driven by aerospace and defense programs. And let's not forget the push in the sixties and seventies for science, math and engineering education, which resulted in a huge pool of technology workers, many of whom became the entrepreneurs behind personal computing. The internet was originally ARPANET and was developed by the Department of Defense. Frequency-hopping technologies fundamental to cell phones were originally developed for military use.
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
Tesla (the electric car company) has made some great advancements in batteries recently, that might be the answer.
I wonder, if everyone in the whole whorl has a panel on the roof,
all that sunshine radiant heat energy changed to electricity
will actually COOL the climate? Then you'll hafta turn around and expend
even more electricity to keep warm.
Got nothing against alternate energy sources, Go For It!
just against gov't (taxpayers) subsidizing them.
Y'all hafta fight it out with my kids,
I'll prolly won't hafta worry about it in 2040.
all that sunshine radiant heat energy changed to electricity
will actually COOL the climate? Then you'll hafta turn around and expend
even more electricity to keep warm.
Got nothing against alternate energy sources, Go For It!
just against gov't (taxpayers) subsidizing them.
Y'all hafta fight it out with my kids,
I'll prolly won't hafta worry about it in 2040.
john in la
Well-known Member
While it may not work in the snow belt there are already some homes that have a zero energy load or very close to it.
Yes every home could not be like this because it works on the premise that it sells electricity to the electric grid in the day time and uses that money to buy electricity at night and/or natural gas; BUT with proper building; advanced insulation practices; low use energy appliances; you can build a zero energy home today.
Yes every home could not be like this because it works on the premise that it sells electricity to the electric grid in the day time and uses that money to buy electricity at night and/or natural gas; BUT with proper building; advanced insulation practices; low use energy appliances; you can build a zero energy home today.
How is the petroleum industry subsidized? Are you referring to certain tax credits? If it were not for the advancements in drilling and recovery technology, mainly fracking, there would have been zero economic growth in the 6.5 years of the zerobammy presidency. Look what has happened to the U.S. economy since oil prices and the related activity plunged, a minus first quarter which will be followed by a recession.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
That PV on a roll has been just around the corner for 20+ years.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
There are hundred's of government and university research grants being spent in labs to develop better solar cells and higher energy density batteries .
Problem is the technology for solar cells and batteries is mature . The major gains have been made years ago. Any gains now are minor and at a high cost.
Labs have been tinkering with batteries before the French developed the lead acid battery in 1859. Every combo of electrode and electrolyte has been tried many decades ago.
There is no new super battery with higher energy density and lower cost. Unless the Almighty adds some new elements to the periodic table.
It's lead acid, ni-cad and lithium. That's it for rechargeable batteries.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Russ . Clean energy works for 6-8 hrs a day weather permitting. Are you and the general public agreeable to sit in the dark while either sweating or shivering?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Russ, look at the power curve from 5mph to 55mph. What does it mean to you?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Problem is the expense and pollution from all those fossils plants waiting on spinning reserve or hot and pressurized. Ready to pickup part to all of the electrical grid demand when solar or wind fails.
What do you think fossil plants do when "not required to run".
ObsoElitist
Member
Wind and solar are not for me, I am surrounded by trees around 150 feet tall.
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
I agree JD. We are a long way from using solar or wind only. Which I have heard many people say we could just shut down gas fired and coal fired plants. Go with wind and solar only. Not going to happen. Maybe someday.Can't see a big blade plant doing 55 mph. Saw one big blade when the brakes failed in 20 mph gust.Not something I would want to see again. Parts were everywhere. I am sure things will improve in time.
Donald Lehman
Well-known Member
Have a business associate who is off the grid with his retirement home here in NNY. During the summer he can run his home on solar and a windmill. However during the winter he has to use a generator a good share of the time. He seems to be happy with the setup.
Married2Allis
Well-known Member
Your associate may be pulling your leg too. Unless he's living like Robinson Caruso I'll bet he fires up that generator more than he's letting on. People I know with 'retirement' homes always seem to be running power tools, burning floodlights at night, etc. I doubt if he can run a 240v well pump or water heater all day on wind/solar.
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
Works well tied in with hydro, when the sun is shining save the water! And the electrical load is much higher in the daytime, therefore solar can supply most of it. In the SW where they use so much for AC it would work very well, but the coal energy industry has bought the politicians!
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
How does solar carry the summer AC load from 3:00PM until dark all the while people are cooking supper, doing laundry, dishes and the street light are turning on?
How do you propose backing up solar when the sun doesn't shine and from 3:00PM until 10:00PM ?
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