Non detergent or detergent

Whelp I know that there are articles on here about
non or detergent and this is like beating a dead
horse! But I heard people say if engine is gunk or
sludge to use non detergent brand ? That being
said in the last post I had which was very helpful, if
you have no clue who changed the oil when they
had it or what? I've looked somewhat into
crankcase it seems to be ok ? My plan was to run
new holland brand master gold 10w 30 in the old
deere. But got talking to guy there said to use
castrol 30w oil? In a non detergent ? Like said I
know or past post about this field but wanted to
make sure I don't do damage to engine ? I have so
many people say non detergent if don't know or
when it's been changed? And some say detergent
oil that the filter will clean it. 😖 I had made trip to
john deere shop other day and part guys told me
the same to use a 20/20 king harvest oil or 30w oil?
In non detergent brand?

The only reason to use non-detergent oil is if the engine uses organic-based gaskets such as what were used back prior to the 1950's which would be prone to decay. Anything rebuilt in recent decades would have synthetic gaskets which the detergent oil will not bother. If the sludge is heavy it will take more than one change to clean the engine up.

You didn't mention how old the 'old Deere' was.

Most of my machines are 1949 or older. On these tractors I only use non-detergent oils, mostly to avoid causing more leaks than they already have. As long as you change the oil with some regularity it will remove a lot of the sludge buildup, but it will take some time.

Good luck.

I'd lean towards the what the manufacturer specified, or the equivalent. You did not state what it is you are working on here, be good to know what it is actually LOL !

In simple terms, as I understand it, modern detergent oils will hold contaminants in suspension, (to what degree it does that before it would settle, I have no idea).

Non Detergent oils will allow contaminants to settle in a deep sump. One good example is the 2 cylinder vertically orientated starting engine on an old caterpillar, like my D7. It has 2 deep sumps that would isolate contaminant accumulation between oil changes and is a splash lube engine. I think in that application, I would still prefer the non detergent oil, but have run modern detergent oil in it. Of course it would get changed often any way.

If you suspect the engine having a lot of sludge build up, I would agree about the concern of what happens when you use detergent oil or do something to flush and clean, depending on what it is, and what could get clogged, hopefully there's a way to do it. I have changed oils at a more frequent interval initially, when I suspected it had not been changed enough, noting if the oils appearance was better after some run time.

I've seen sludge accumulations in oil pans on small engines that were not taken care of, it is nasty, and surely would contaminate new oil, darken its appearance. Maybe its possible for the pan to be removed on this for cleaning, if you suspect it needs to or you can see it needs to.

I bought a used car once that the owner had used non-detergent oil in (unknown to me). I put in detergent oil that washed the sludge loose and plugged the oil intake screen. Caught the oil pressure drop right away, but opened the engine and replaced the rod bearings. Cleaned the oil intake screen and everything was okay after that.

It's a john Deere model b 1944 haha sry about that!

The machine I was talking about is a 1944 john Deere model b . Guy said it was a rebuild back in early 2000 ? But can't be sure about that ? Runs really good! I thought about using castrol 30 w non detergent brand oil ?

Wes I would drain the old oil out. Then refill it with 2 qtrs. of new oil and fill up with K-1. Start the tractor and let it run at low idle until the water temperature comes up to the operating range. Shut it off and drain it hot. IF it looks like most of the gunk is gone than change the filter and install your new detergent oil. IF it still looks a little dirty then just flush it out again with new oil and K-1.

I try to do this regularly on the older tractors/trucks. They let more carbon past the rings than newer motors. I like to "clean" them up every now and then. Where did I get the idea to flush it with K-1?? I drove a 1952 Chevy 3/4 ton truck for 10-15 years. My Uncle bought it new so I still had the original operators manual. It told you to flush it every other oil change.

I have also done this on motors with hydraulic lifters that are clattering. Sometimes it will clean them up enough they quite down.

I do that tonly I use red diesel(already on hand). It works.Then refill with your regular oil.I use the same 15/40 fleet diesel in all my engines....car;truck;tractors;combine;ATV;lawnmower......If you want, change the filter at again 10 to 20 hrs.

If I am not mistaken there is a cover that you can remove and look down into engine. If so you could take it off and see what it looks inside. With that cover off you could wash the crankcase out and go with detergent oil. You could run it on a 15-40 weigh oil.

(quoted from post at 12:43:50 06/22/15) Whelp I know that there are articles on here about
non or detergent and this is like beating a dead
horse! But I heard people say if engine is gunk or
sludge to use non detergent brand ? That being
said in the last post I had which was very helpful, if
you have no clue who changed the oil when they
had it or what? I've looked somewhat into
crankcase it seems to be ok ? My plan was to run
new holland brand master gold 10w 30 in the old
deere. But got talking to guy there said to use
castrol 30w oil? In a non detergent ? Like said I
know or past post about this field but wanted to
make sure I don't do damage to engine ? I have so
many people say non detergent if don't know or
when it's been changed? And some say detergent
oil that the filter will clean it. 😖 I had made trip to
john deere shop other day and part guys told me
the same to use a 20/20 king harvest oil or 30w oil?
In non detergent brand?

Click to expand...

Lets add high or low zinc plus high ash or low ash oil. Class III, IV or V synthetic.

Non-detergent oil is best used in hydraulic systems of older tractors that don't call for special oil. The best thing you can do is get the crankcase clean (as others have suggested) and put in the best detergent oil you can afford afterward (I use diesel oil in all my engines, including the lawn mower). Get your engine clean and then keep it that way. Don't fall for the myths put out there about non-detergent oil being so wonderful. It isn't, or it would still be in general use. Mike

Running kerosene/DIESEL in large quantities is the best way in the world to ruin the engine bearings due to oil being too thin. DO NOT RUN IN HIGH QUANTITIES!!!! Lots of tractors ruined due to faulty injector pump seal putting diesel into crankcase and bearings failed. And in small amounts!

Up till the mid 1960s you really had no choice on oils. The cold war Alaska military campain started in the late 50s and started hiting the markets in the mid to late 60s gave consumers a choice of the old non detergent or the "new" fangled oils.

However the new oils improved dramatically over the years due to cause....

Cold starting and engine drag to due cold oil got fixed with multi wieghts first off over non detergent oil.

Then piston ring coking that regular non detergent oils caused was addressed and fixed.

Then came piston sleeve scuffing.

Then came tappet wear,

then came sludge forming

then came cold start and dry cam surfaces so the oil had to have some "cling" after sitting for long periods.

Then fighting acid formation from moisture getting into the engine and forming sulfuric acids and other acids compounds.

then Extreme wear additives that only come into play if you have an extreme hot spot. The additives actually cling to red hot surfaces and coat them and reduce the friction. But only activate on extreme heat or pressure.

All of which was only included in the "DETERGENT" oils.

Overhauls went from 60,000 miles to 200,000 miles on a regular basis or triple the life.

And now which oil would you run?

Yes it might start leaking as the goop is cleaned up off of old pours gaskets. Yes the compression will increase as the rings are clean up and the engine will have more power. Yes the wear will slow down.

However it will not perform miracles on a worn out engine.

Your tractor, your call.

(quoted from post at 10:43:50 06/22/15) Whelp I know that there are articles on here about
non or detergent and this is like beating a dead
horse! But I heard people say if engine is gunk or
sludge to use non detergent brand ? That being
said in the last post I had which was very helpful, if
you have no clue who changed the oil when they
had it or what? I've looked somewhat into
crankcase it seems to be ok ? My plan was to run
new holland brand master gold 10w 30 in the old
deere. But got talking to guy there said to use
castrol 30w oil? In a non detergent ? Like said I
know or past post about this field but wanted to
make sure I don't do damage to engine ? I have so
many people say non detergent if don't know or
when it's been changed? And some say detergent
oil that the filter will clean it. 😖 I had made trip to
john deere shop other day and part guys told me
the same to use a 20/20 king harvest oil or 30w oil?
In non detergent brand?

Click to expand...

I run 10-30W in all of my old tractors, 1937 to 1952. The manuals all recommend 'Non-detergent' but that is pretty much all that was available at that time. I've had no trouble with any of them. As an aside: My J.I. Case manuals all call for 160 deg. thermostats but that means running at 140 or so in the winter so I use 180 or 190s; no problems (winter or summer). I believe that the 160s were designated to prevent the 'boiling off' of the alcohol-based antifreeze that was prevalent in those days :?

the only place for non detergent is in the pump oil can

Mike, too bad about our old friend from Jonesburg. He was a great asset to his community! True Son

sotxbill You really need to READ the post where I stated to used the K-1 and oil mix at an IDLE. At zero load you WILL NOT hurt the bearings!!!!! Also your running the motor maybe for 5-10 minutes. I have done this on HUNDREDS of motors in my life time and never had the first one damaged in anyway. The key is: 1) no load 2) slow engine speed. You also have some lubrication with the oil mixed with the K-1 being "new". It would be closer to having the same lubricating properties as old worn out oil than you think.


Now under load like you get when an injector pump leaks into the crankcase is an entirely different thing. The thinned oil from diesel fuel will not provide the hydrodynamic bearing needed in the main and rod bearings when they are under load.. You then will have failures.

(quoted from post at 12:43:50 06/22/15) Whelp I know that there are articles on here about
non or detergent and this is like beating a dead
horse! But I heard people say if engine is gunk or
sludge to use non detergent brand ? That being
said in the last post I had which was very helpful, if
you have no clue who changed the oil when they
had it or what? I've looked somewhat into
crankcase it seems to be ok ? My plan was to run
new holland brand master gold 10w 30 in the old
deere. But got talking to guy there said to use
castrol 30w oil? In a non detergent ? Like said I
know or past post about this field but wanted to
make sure I don't do damage to engine ? I have so
many people say non detergent if don't know or
when it's been changed? And some say detergent
oil that the filter will clean it. 😖 I had made trip to
john deere shop other day and part guys told me
the same to use a 20/20 king harvest oil or 30w oil?
In non detergent brand?

Click to expand...

Some folk are going on about deep sumps to allow dirt to settle. iirc the tractor has an oil filter so why settle sludge.
Not that there will be sludge with unleaded fuel if the carb is properly adjusted and the engine is operated warm enough.
Pour in some JD plus 50 and don't worry about things that don't require worry.

If it was rebuilt in 2000 it shoulden't need non detergent oil.

For the guy's that think the filter will catch the sludge you may want to read the owners manual. Don't know about Waterloo's but Dubuques only filter a fraction of the oil each go round.

If the engine has an oil filter, it should run detergent oil. And even if it doesn't, it's getting difficult to find non-detergent oil. There's a good chance your tractor has been running detergent oil for the past forty years.

As for what weight to use, that depends a lot of where you live. I run 10W-30 in my tractor year-round, because it starts easy in the winter with this oil. If you live down south, you might want to go with a 15W-40. I don't use straight weight oil anymore, and can't come up with a good reason to do so.

I had thoughts of going by the new holland tractor place and buying some of there "master gold" 10w30 oil it is a flat tapped oil brand they say it's good oil for older tractors you ever heard of it ??? What brand do you recommend or what brand do you use? In a 10w30? I've took look At tractor I really have not seen and big sludge buildup and the old oil looks to be clean as it runs out ? No big hunks of stuff or anything ? What do you think.

pull the pan (or in your case, the cover)
and clean it out.
Then, run whatever oil makes you happy.

I've had lots of old and very old tractors.
without exception, they all had muck in the sump that needed
to be physically removed.

I'm sure it's a good oil. I believe it's diesel spec'd only, so it might not meet the current API specs for gasoline engine oil. But then, neither would the oil originally used in your tractor.

I don't think New Holland owns any refineries, so they're buying it from somebody else. My guess is it's neither better nor worse than the name-brand diesel-spec oils you can get at Wally World, such as Shell Rotella or Chevron Delo. As far as whether it's a better oil for your flat-tappet engine than some other brand, you would need to know how much ZDDP is in both.

I generally get whatever 10W-30 oil happens to be on sale. For my newer vehicles I stick with Mobil One, but for the tractor I haven't switched to synthetic. It doesn't get enough use to worry about it.

The manual for that model calls for in normal summer weather, 65-90* for a 40 weight oil, 30 weight is only for below 65*, now in hot weather, above 90* then it is 50 weight oil. Only when they went to the pressed steel frame did they recemond a 30 weight oil for summer.

What brand of oil do you run in your deeres?