- Thread starter David G
- Start date
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
Back when the 7 and 9 cyl Wasp Radial engine and double that for the double Wasp, they water injected and turbocharged to get 2500 hp out of those suckers.
mattwillson
Member
A couple guys around used to do that with high compression(12+to1) V-8's so they could max out the the timing and not get detonation. Didn't seem to have any problems, other than babysitting the water tank level.
Indiana Ken
Well-known Member
Simply injecting water, all else the same should not offer a significate improvement. However. the latent heat of vaporization of the water can be used to cool the combustion process allowing for, more optimal timing, increased compression, super charging, turbo charging, etc.
In the case of airplanes it is my understanding the water was mainly used during take off since the dense air tended to cause detonation. The use of water allowed the engine to be tuned for high altitude use and not destroy itself taking off on sea level air.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Unless you are running 80 octand fuel, higher than your existing compression ratio, or pressurizing the engine, it probably will make little difference. Were it mine I would fine tune the EFI first. Jim
37chief
Well-known Member
- Location
- California
When stationed in the Philippines our sea planes had two 3350's. We would get distilled water for water injection from the San Miguel beer Brewery. I would always see a Super Connie parked at the base air field. I never knew what it was used for. Stan
The Corsair's were 2000 HP with water injection, the Hellcats were 1800 HP no water injection. I do not know if they were the same displacement, but they were the same basic engine. I would assume the Corsair had higher boost and used the water injection to prevent detonation.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
That's how you find a head gasket leak. Have had the effects on a Chevy 4 cycle and a Mercury outboard 2 cycle engine. Cleans up the cylinders like they were new.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
I rode one once from Dallas to New Orleans. Beautiful beast and neat story behind it; Howard Hughes, TWA, Pan Am. competetion.
What impressed me the most on take off thrust change was the Lockheed Electra turbo prop on an Eastern Airlines flight. Constant
velocity engine, vary the pitch to vary aircraft speed. On take off, watched the blade black area (right at the hub) change from a very
thin line to most of the hub on take off as the pitch changed and pinned me to the seat.
What impressed me the most on take off thrust change was the Lockheed Electra turbo prop on an Eastern Airlines flight. Constant
velocity engine, vary the pitch to vary aircraft speed. On take off, watched the blade black area (right at the hub) change from a very
thin line to most of the hub on take off as the pitch changed and pinned me to the seat.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Bull Feathers. No extra oxygen. Just lower EGT and
Mm
Mo
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
This past winter I finished a 1/35 scale model of the PBY-5. Have it hanging from the ceiling in my "rec room". Read the rescue story of one saving what was left of the crew of the Cruiser Indianapolis; quite a story. I have that model to build when the weather takes a turn for the worse again. I just think the plane is neat for what it was designed to do. Didn't one spot the enemy's fleet prior to the Battle of Midway and inform our guys?
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
Google the subject. Wikipedia does a wonderful job of filling you in on all the facts.
Since last winter, no time for it now especially since I blew a bearing yesterday on my round baler and have to fix that. I have finished about 30 models of things that have been part of my life in one way or another. Part of that collection is based on Navy aircraft: Douglas SBD Dauntless, Duck amphibian, P3 Orion, F4U Corsair, F4 Phantom (AF version decals but kit had Navy too), F6F Hellcat, F8F Bearcat, F9F Panther, A1-H Skyraider, A6 Intruder, A7 Crusader II, F8 Crusader, F/A Super Hornet, PBY-5, S3B Viking and other things like granddad's black 1940 Ford coupe.
Really beats cabin fever when you can go back in history and visit essentially first hand, go to Wikipedia and get filled in on the history while you build the model. Great sport. If you are bored try it, might like it. Don't have any tractors. Model makers don't seem to be interested in supplying them. So I build other things.
Since last winter, no time for it now especially since I blew a bearing yesterday on my round baler and have to fix that. I have finished about 30 models of things that have been part of my life in one way or another. Part of that collection is based on Navy aircraft: Douglas SBD Dauntless, Duck amphibian, P3 Orion, F4U Corsair, F4 Phantom (AF version decals but kit had Navy too), F6F Hellcat, F8F Bearcat, F9F Panther, A1-H Skyraider, A6 Intruder, A7 Crusader II, F8 Crusader, F/A Super Hornet, PBY-5, S3B Viking and other things like granddad's black 1940 Ford coupe.
Really beats cabin fever when you can go back in history and visit essentially first hand, go to Wikipedia and get filled in on the history while you build the model. Great sport. If you are bored try it, might like it. Don't have any tractors. Model makers don't seem to be interested in supplying them. So I build other things.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
Well I guess that the scientist that figured out that pure water was 2 Hydrogen molecules bonded to one Oxygen had his head in the
sand! Oh well! Now whether or not it functions in the process described, I couldn't tell you, but it works and since it's there, why not!
"The glass is half FULL".
sand! Oh well! Now whether or not it functions in the process described, I couldn't tell you, but it works and since it's there, why not!
"The glass is half FULL".
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
How does anybody get out of high school without knowing that water is oxidized hydrogen . Similar to carbon dioxide after burning carbon, ashes after burning firewood or rust as iron combines with oxygen.
Can you make water, carbon dioxide , ashes or rust "burn" ?
Anybody that thinks water will burn or support combustion needs to give thier head a shake. Any idea why we use water to extinguish fire?
GeneMO
Well-known Member
- Location
- Pilot Grove, Mo.
I found a model a few years ago of an FFG " Oliver Hazard Perry" class, guided missile frigate. I spent two days on one with my son on a "Tiger Cruise". I think they have decomissioned all of that class now. I am wanting to build the model to have his ships numbers. I need to go online to get a number kit, as this model came with the wrong numbers.
I thought I outgrew model building, but guess not.
Gene
Karl in MD
Member
Yup. Callsign "Strawberry 5". A RAF PBY found the Bismarck, too.
37chief
Well-known Member
- Location
- California
If you were at Sangley Point you probably remember the large twin engine P5M Martin sea planes. Our squadron VP 48 had 12 of them. They were water only landing. Wheeles were attached to them after landing, and pulled out of the water with a tractor. (keeping this tractor related)Some times people get these sea planes mixed up with the PBY's. I spent 6 months at Sangley. Stan
37chief
Well-known Member
- Location
- California
Our squadron got rid of the P5's in 67, and got the p3's. We made another 6 month deployment to Atsugi Japan. Next deployment was Adak Alaska. That is when I said so long. Stan
showcrop
Well-known Member
Good ole reliable B&D. How to win friends and influence people. How to take some possible knowledge and present it in such a manner that persuades everyone that it can't possibly be true. Can You say "Dale Carnegie"? I don't know how Precious works. I do know that water cools. I know that cooler air is more dense which means there is more O2 entering the combustion chamber. I know that Precious uses EFI at the throttle body. I know that the water is not being directly injected, but that it is being used to cool the intake air thus getting more O2 into the combustion chamber. So go down to Kissimee and straighten them out. The race is coming up soon.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Some quick back peddling there . The lower temperature and density is offset by the amount displaced air and fuel passing into the engine.
The power increase is from the lower combustion chamber temperature on the compression stroke . And lowering the exhaust gas temperature to prevent metallurgical failure.
Anybody crooked enough to sell injection systems that "burn" the oxygen and hydrogen in water should be flogged.
Anybody dull witted enough to believe that water can be "burned" is a hazard to both themselves and others.
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
David,
An airplane mechanic during WW2 said water injection boosted the hp in fighter planes, but only for a short time. It was used only as a last resort to get out of the way of the enemy planes. It may double the hp briefly, then it could take a long time to get the engine temps back to normal, at which time you had better have gotten away or shot the other guy down.
I've never tired it. This is what an old timer told me. If he is wrong, don't blame me. Can't ask him either, he passed last month.
An airplane mechanic during WW2 said water injection boosted the hp in fighter planes, but only for a short time. It was used only as a last resort to get out of the way of the enemy planes. It may double the hp briefly, then it could take a long time to get the engine temps back to normal, at which time you had better have gotten away or shot the other guy down.
I've never tired it. This is what an old timer told me. If he is wrong, don't blame me. Can't ask him either, he passed last month.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
KC 135 Jet Aircraft used it for takeoffs back in the '60's for added thrust and when mixed with their jet fuel made a horrible blackish smoke. When they practiced their "alert" take offs, one per 30 seconds, by the 4th aircraft you couldn't see the runway.
Back in the '50s & '60s There was a kit advertised in various magazines like Popular Mechanics, Car Craft, etc. to add water
injection to passenger cars and pickups. I don't remember the company's name but I do remember that it was, basically, a glass jar with a bracket for mounting, some rubber hose and a fitting or two - wish I had one new-in-the-box
K Effective
Well-known Member
I remember the first of the Farm Stock style of modified pulling tractors (factory hood and sheet metal, engine block with multiple huge turbos, giant rears, but still looks like a tractor) had a red lamp out where the hood ornament should be- they would inject water through an added mikuni carb into the intake to keep from melting the pistons during a run- the pull announcer would always point out when that light came on, the water was flowing!
K Effective
Well-known Member
Oh yeah, at work we break the water molecules into oxygen and hydrogen all the time- we keep a hydrogen blanket on some tanks to scavenge the free oxygen and recombine into water, to keep corrosion down.
Early on in my flying career I flew turboprops that had water injection. Water sprayed out of nozzles directly into the air intake for the first stage copressor. As the water evaporated it caused the incoming air to cool lowering the EGT and therefore allowed more power to be developed.
Been a long time but seemed like we carried around 10 gallons of water and we only used it on takeoff. I remember flying a flight full of soldiers out of Ft. Leonard Wood MO and having to use the water in order to haul the load. Want to say it was limited to 60 seconds but that may not be correct.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
May have had more to do with air density. Heavier the air bigger the bang. That's what makes turbo's work. Pack the cylinder with lots of air to get a bigger boom. Now on a turbine, I have no idea but I guess physics is physics so I guess heavy air works for them too.
This is the reason engines (internal at least) have a hard time at higher altitude, thin air....not very dense, makes for a "light" boom when it goes off. Turbo's pack in the light air and mitigate some of the shortfalls. That's why some guys love them for their tractors. Personally I don't want one. Had one on an 800 cu in Cummins 400 hp big cam and one was enough for me.
On the B-47 comment from the other guy (can't see his post right here), as I recall they had black smoke too on take off. They also used Jet Assisted Take Off (JATO) bottles to get up from short fields. Really a beautiful, graceful bird. Have one in my model collection. Really enjoyed the SAC B-47 movie with Gen. Jimmy Stewart and June Allison. Some beautiful pictures of these babies in the sky.
This is the reason engines (internal at least) have a hard time at higher altitude, thin air....not very dense, makes for a "light" boom when it goes off. Turbo's pack in the light air and mitigate some of the shortfalls. That's why some guys love them for their tractors. Personally I don't want one. Had one on an 800 cu in Cummins 400 hp big cam and one was enough for me.
On the B-47 comment from the other guy (can't see his post right here), as I recall they had black smoke too on take off. They also used Jet Assisted Take Off (JATO) bottles to get up from short fields. Really a beautiful, graceful bird. Have one in my model collection. Really enjoyed the SAC B-47 movie with Gen. Jimmy Stewart and June Allison. Some beautiful pictures of these babies in the sky.
Water injection:On reciprocation engine aircraft it was called ADI or Anti Detonation Injection.A 50:50 mix of water and methanal.The meth.raised the octane and kept the water from freezing at altitude.The water helped to lower combustion chamber temp.
In jets the fluid could be added at the air inlet,into the combustion cans or aft of the turbines.It wouldn't be added to the fuel directly.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
You forgot about spooling the supercharger up to emergency overboost at the same time.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
The water injection was to prevent melting the exhaust power turbines while the engine was over fueled for max thrust.
The water DOES NOT MAKE POWER, the lower temperatures allows the engine to make more power without failing.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
To absorb heat on the compression stroke to keep the air/fuel mixture below the autoignition temperature.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
100% correct
Water injection is really a thing of the past the Jet Assisted Take Off {JATO} is a more widely used and a superior system today and its not a new technology, but it produces more thrust to weight capacity. Most aircraft that are still flying today have nothing but the brackets left intact for the water injection system. The advance's in engine technology have surpassed anything that would have been injected with water or water methanol mix's. I know of only one exception were it is used and it is there only for cooling purposes. Let me note that some restored x military aircraft would or may have it.
Note: Just pouring water in your carburetor on your car or truck is a bad idea water like hyd fluid cannot be compressed and can ruin your engine.
Note: Just pouring water in your carburetor on your car or truck is a bad idea water like hyd fluid cannot be compressed and can ruin your engine.
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