Ag or Industrial?

showcrop · Apr 22, 2015

I commended our town clerk for taking a stand on tractor registrations. State law says that Farm tractors and farm tractors only can get the substantially reduced rate for a tractor registration. There are only about fifteen of us in town who do any thing that can really be called farming in my opinion, and only one who actually makes his living primarily from farming. Probably half the homeowners in town have compact diesel tractors to play with, and many horse owners have one for manure handling, but I don't see a two horse stable as a farm. pretty much all of these tractors from what I see have industrial type tires on them. She has been taking a lot of heat from these people that think that they should get the much lower rate. probably many of them see them selves as farming because they use a tractor to till their 1,000 square foot garden. Some have even gone to the board of selectmen to complain about her. To me farming is clearly producing crop or animals for human or animal consumption, and offering same for sale, and none of these people are doing that. I suggested that she ask them to show proof that a tractor is primarily for farming by bringing it up and showing her their R-1 tires. If someone is willing to take their industrial tires off and replace them with R-1s let them have the reg at the discounted rate. Any ideas that I can offer her to help her show people that they don't qualify as farmers?...... I expect that a lot of these $200,000 a year yuppies moved here from the Boston suburbs mainly so that they could think of themselves as farmers.

Traditional Farmer · Apr 22, 2015

My state solved the problem by outlawing taxing farm tractors and farm equipment.

PJH · Apr 22, 2015

What is "Tractor Registration"?

Mike M · Apr 22, 2015

What State is doing this ?

gene bender · Apr 22, 2015

Whats an industral tire.

Kerry50 · Apr 22, 2015

Where are you? Again glad I am in the middle of MO.

hd6gtom · Apr 22, 2015

I believe you have to have a certain amount of acres to be considered a farm, depending on what you grow, any thing less and you are considered a hobby farm, which is not deductible according to the IRS. Do they have a 3/4 ton pickup? Last time I knew the IRS would not allow you to deduct a 1/2 ton pickup for farm use. You will need to contact a tax person in your area and find out if these are still in effect.

rrlund · Apr 22, 2015

We don't register tractors here,but I can tell you what passes as a farm here. It used to be that horses for profit was ag,horses for pleasure was residential,but state law has changed that. Now any horses and it's ag. That's for property classification.
As far as ag classification for anything else,$1000 in annual sales of commodities.

Prawn Farmer · Apr 22, 2015

Easy solution - require applicants show proof that on their last year's state and federal returns that they paid income tax on farm revenue (schedule F?). Registering tractors almost seems like a covert tax on the recreational mowing group?

HillsofTn · Apr 22, 2015

Showcrop, just curious - where do you have a "dog in this fight"? If the registration
serves some purpose (other than revenue enhancement), what would that be?

I suspect a lot of the original farmers of this country were as much involved in growing
food for their own family as they were in selling their produce. If a guy grows a garden
for his own use and then sells any surplus to friends and neighbors, does that not make
him a farmer? Would you allow him to be rejected as a farmer? If so, then prepare to be
rejected yourself when the BTO get a law passed that says you must farm thousands of acres
before you get to be called a farmer....ie the slippery slope of divide and conquer.

I strongly believe that we all would be better served to be resistant to all forms of
government registrations unless they benefit the common good more than place a burden on
the citizens. If we tend to support the government encroachment as long as it isn't our
ox that is getting gored, the future government bureaucracies will devour us all.

VicS · Apr 22, 2015

You probably really don't want this to
happen. What about backhoe's and pay
loaders. Also we have had a lttle tractor
with Ind tires. And at least 6 of my
neighbors who are big farmers. Also don't
every body need a tax break?

bcdave · Apr 22, 2015

In B.C. Canada you must have Farm Property classification to get farm insurance and burn farm fuel. My agent told me wrong insurance is as good as no insurance. He said every claim is investigated If it is not correct there is no payment. He told me of a MVA involving a pickup towing a trailer larger than the truck was legal to haul. There was no payment. Insurance if not correct is false security.
Dave

dhermesc · Apr 22, 2015

Like the government is going to do something useful with the money.

dmiller · Apr 22, 2015

Never heard of registering a tractor. Sounds like you have too many laws. Glad I don't live back east.

paul · Apr 22, 2015

What state is this, think you mentioned something about it before?

What type of tax are you talking about, what 'registration'?

Nothing like that around me, as with others, we are just lost as to what you are talking about?

I'm really interested, but can't understand?

Are you in a state that those property taxes that apply to 'things' and not just real estate? Is that what this is about?

It's not some sort of road or licence tax?

Or is this just a sales tax, that the county controls?

Bit lost here.

Paul

showcrop · Apr 22, 2015

I have not gotten much in the way of suggestions, but some questions, so I will try to answer them. I live in tax free NH. We have no income or sales tax so state and local services are funded primarily by property taxes, as well as a myriad of other taxes, mainly on population groups that are not likely to scream when squeezed. Many of these taxes are on large and small businesses resulting in an overall unfavorable business environment. Virtually anything that runs on the public roads is required to be registered which considering the general congestion here in NH is probably a good idea It serves the same purposes of being able to ID a vehicle that may be reported for a problem or damage. "Yellow tractor" would probably not be much help. Vehicle registration money goes to both state and municipality, the state portion based on vehicle weight, and the town portion by value. Thus the owner of a new TLB will not pay much to the state while he will pay substantially to the town. Showing proof of farm income is a very good suggestion. I expect that most of the complainers would then agree that they do not really operate a farm. My "dog in this fight" is that the lady is a long time personal friend and she is just the messenger for the state legislature so far as registrations go.

Ken Macfarlane · Apr 22, 2015

We farm with a tractor on industrials, lots of backhoes around here on Michelin ag pattern tires also.

There are two programs here:

1. You can become a registered farmer to access: right to apply for farm diesel card, farm plates/registration for vehicles, provincial (state
level) soils testing and vet labs, access to manure / waterway management funding, and a few other services.

2. You can demonstrate land is farmed or held ready to farm to access property tax (school tax) deferral on farmland.

The barrier to option one is you have to report information annually on acres owned, acres farmed etc and pay about 120$. One pickup
registration saves the annual fee though.

VaTom · Apr 22, 2015

Thanks for clarifying. As for your friend, complaints come with the territory when you accept a bureaucrat paycheck. It's up to the state law to be clear. If it is not, your legislature screwed up and should fix it.

You want to apply use to determine whether a tractor is farm or not. That may not be what your legislature had in mind, it should have been clear. Your neighbors are not wrong in asserting they have a farm tractor if they bought one, even if it is never used in farming.

A guy I know just moved his business to NH, can't be all that business-unfriendly. He also took his farm tractor, which will not be used in the context you prefer. As I recall, he bought 6 ac of mostly woods.

My real estate is taxed as a "farm" with no field crops or orchard. I found the situation in Va bizarre but studied the rules and made them work for me. As most places, we have all sorts of taxes, some regressive, some progressive. Municipalities all need income to provide the services requested. It's an argument without end. I've butted heads with both the assessor and the zoning administrator here, almost always won because I did my homework.

The last clarification you should make is what the NH law actually says, or what your Attorney General has determined it means.

paul · Apr 22, 2015

Interesting, thank you.

I had not ever heard of an 'off road' work vehicle needing to be registered in any state before.

That is an unfortunate deal. I'm sure such nonsense will spread to other states.

If you were to trailer it and never run it on a public road, I would presume you would not need to register, or licence, or whatever?

I agree a 'farm use' rule would best be served by showing a schedule F fedral tax forum. This would end any debate, it would be yes or no.
Even if you are losing at farming a year or 5, a Schedule F would be filed to continue depreciation and other 'actual farming' accounting.

Small outfits could choose if they wish to avoid the fedral taxes, or the local taxes that -should- be paying. Either file your income farm taxes
properly, or cheat on the fedral side and you don't get to claim the state/local stuff.

Paul

Adirondack case guy · Apr 22, 2015

I always thought that a person had to be able to document $10,000.00 in gross income from crop or livestock sales, anually to obtain tax breaks and farm exemptions. This would make it pretty easy for your town to segrigate non farmers from real farmers. I think your idea of R1 tires is a bit rediculas myself. I have R1s on my Case 224 lawn mower. Does that make me a farmer???
Loren, the Acg.

Rick Kr · Apr 22, 2015

Schedule F would make more sense than R1s. My backhoe had Goodyear IT525s which are closer to a R1 than an R4. My tractor I am putting R4s on it to be easier on non-tilled areas. So should my backhoe be exempt if the town thinks my IT525s look like an R1? Or should I just put R1s on it to be exempt?

There are many types farming (landscape/nursery stock) that dont require R1s. Not everyone pulls huge plows, disks, planters etc. and needs that type of traction.

Swing by the local 2000+ acre sod farm, tell them they are not a farm unless they put R1s on their precious turf.

Rick

David G · Apr 22, 2015

Use the Schedule F

paul · Apr 22, 2015

Fedral taxes, you just need to file a schedule F, don't need to really make a profit, tho eventually you need to prove you intend to make a profit and not just be a money losing hobby. In general filing a schedule F eventually costs a person some income taxes, so people don't file them for no reason; if you file you likely are trying to actually farm......

This is the best general test of 'are you a farmer' without costing any other govt any sort of dollars to check up or follow through - just see a copy of last yars schedule F, and good to go.

Individual states have come up with some ideas on needing 10 acres; or need to gross $1000 to $10,000 in farm income; or some such. But all of this means the local/state govt needs to follow up and find proof of those claims, which is more paperwork and cost to the local govts. Or don't really prove you are farming......

Paul

jim castleman · Apr 22, 2015

In my county in Indiana, you need to show a schedule F to build an ag exempt(no permits) out building.

Bret4207 · Apr 23, 2015

(quoted from post at 14:48:29 04/22/15) I always thought that a person had to be able to document $10,000.00 in gross income from crop or livestock sales, anually to obtain tax breaks and farm exemptions. This would make it pretty easy for your town to segrigate non farmers from real farmers. I think your idea of R1 tires is a bit rediculas myself. I have R1s on my Case 224 lawn mower. Does that make me a farmer???
Loren, the Acg.

I've heard that before too. I've never grossed $10K in a year, but this is definitely a farm. All our taxes are paid on a farm, we're taxed as a farm and listed in public records as a farm. Around here you have to be shipping milk for some people to consider you a "real" farmer but they often change their minds when they see 100 head of sheep in a field. As one dairy farmer said, "That ain't a hobby, that's work." You have to start someplace to build something.

In NY we do license "Special Commercial" vehicles, things like graders, cranes and payloaders used by municipalities or big construction firms. Generally they are machines capable of exceeding 25mph (farm tractors can't legally) that are commonly used on public roadways. Farm tractors and the like are not required to be registered or insured, thank goodness.

jm. · Apr 23, 2015

Not so in Tennessee you can own 1,000 acres of trees that are GROWINF but not harvested so no income but you are still a farmer as such. Schedule F is the best way to control his situation. Lots of true farm tractors here with R4 tires, don,t think that should be a determing factor.

jm. · Apr 23, 2015

Where in the H>>> di you come up with that crazy idea, IRS will let you deduct a mini pickup IF it is used in the operation of a business, farm or what ever. Have 8 ford f 150 that are all used in this business. Some ideas folks get. A man be a farmer if he want to farm 1 acre or thousands . Just has to keep records and file a schedule F.

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