- Thread starter Fatjay
- Start date
Bob Bancroft
Well-known Member
- Location
- Aurora NY
Which would be fine with me(if I ever owned one of the things, which I probably won't) if the tractor worked like it should!
I helped a neighbor with a JD electrical gremlin this past winter. What an eye opener. This was after the dealer couldn't figure it out!
I helped a neighbor with a JD electrical gremlin this past winter. What an eye opener. This was after the dealer couldn't figure it out!
Nebraska Cowman
Well-known Member
If i want to pirate music with my tractor is it John Deere's responsibility to prevent it? Is everybody my MOTHER?
I'll bet if you have a software problem, you own it. If it is theirs, and you are only paying for the "rights" to use it, then they should be required to maintain it as long as your "rights" exist (I.e. as long as you own said machine).
I got my eyes opened to some of Mother Deere's shenanigans at a Great Plains meeting this winter. Fellow said that AGCO's precision farming software was plug and play with everybody else's equipment. Deere's is the same basic software, but they lock out certain functions and certain interfaces. To be able to use some certain features, Deere charged a customer $2600.00! There was nothing to upgrade, just unlocked the features that were locked out!
I got my eyes opened to some of Mother Deere's shenanigans at a Great Plains meeting this winter. Fellow said that AGCO's precision farming software was plug and play with everybody else's equipment. Deere's is the same basic software, but they lock out certain functions and certain interfaces. To be able to use some certain features, Deere charged a customer $2600.00! There was nothing to upgrade, just unlocked the features that were locked out!
That's why my neighbor has not 'upgraded' his 6310s to later models - like my vintage tractors the only software they have is the seat cushion, however the manufacturers are only doing what they can to satisfy the government's increasing pressure to manage 'greenhouse' gases and 'save' ourselves and the planet (this from a government that can't even manage their own budget) :? As was already pointed out 'it's all about the money' :twisted:
BANDITFARMER
Well-known Member
That's why the old 9400 and 9500 combines are about all gone. When the computer dies there are no replacements being made so the combine wont run without it and no one can make a system to replace it because it's a propryatary system that belongs to Deere. All these tractors and other equipment that is heavy in electronics and computers will be around as long as they support the electrical systems, Mechanical systems no problem with aftermarket but it's the electrical system most of the time is out dated 5 years after it's made. It would be like going to a computer store to buy a new computer with Windows 95, It aint going to happen. At some point this will shut me down because I will not buy anything with a computer in it for the farm. I think this will be the down fall of all the new equipment, Lack of replacement electronics. Bandit
Speaking as an engineer there is an awful lot of intellectual property in those ECMs. There is hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars of R&D, engineering, programming, validation, and manufacturing in those boxes. Manufacturers don't want that information to be hacked and unencrypted and spread around as public knowledge. How do you think China had come as far as they have in such a short period of time? They aren't developing a lot of the technology on their own, it's been stolen from companies willing to invest in the engineering to develop it.
I'll go along with those that say it's nothing new. I worked at a shop that made trim presses and tools for foundries. The presses had so many electronics on them they'd make most of your heads spin.
There are maintenance codes that our service guys enter to unlock them to do work on them, that only they know and will not share with the customer (well, it happened once, and the customer then crashed the press, busted tooling, and tried to get it under warranty....)
There are the HAAS CNC machines that after they are repaired by the service techs, lock out after so many hours and need a code to unlock them. The customer only gets the code after paying the bill. If the customer can't pay the bill, they can't run the machine to make money to pay the bill.
That's just the way it is, like it or not. I sure don't want all that on my iron, but in the modern industry, it's just a way for the manufacturer to protect they're ideas, technology, and patents.
Donovan from Wisconsin
There are maintenance codes that our service guys enter to unlock them to do work on them, that only they know and will not share with the customer (well, it happened once, and the customer then crashed the press, busted tooling, and tried to get it under warranty....)
There are the HAAS CNC machines that after they are repaired by the service techs, lock out after so many hours and need a code to unlock them. The customer only gets the code after paying the bill. If the customer can't pay the bill, they can't run the machine to make money to pay the bill.
That's just the way it is, like it or not. I sure don't want all that on my iron, but in the modern industry, it's just a way for the manufacturer to protect they're ideas, technology, and patents.
Donovan from Wisconsin
TomH in PA
Well-known Member
It's all about liability. You can certainly modify the software if you want, but you can also be sure that will void your warranty and get you into trouble if the tractor kills someone.
Last season a large custom forage contractor near me had a problem with his new JD forager, would not start one morning. Phone local JD dealer who had supplied it, they gave him a "special" phone number at JD in Britain who would sort out his "problem".
The contractor rang the number, explained his problem to be told by the person at JD -
This is JD Finance Dept, pay the 3 outstanding finance payments that you owe on the forager and we will switch your foragers electronics back on"
JD can control their tractors/foragers/combines electronics remotely via satelite !!!
At the price of the equiptment, I can see why they'd be interested in that, especially with the financial difficulties a lot of farms have anymore, but it's still a bit alarming.
It certainly makes the thought of a long term investment limited if once a computer breaks in 10 years, and it's no longer supported, you have a huge paper weight in the field.
I'm sure it's not just deere, it's just a bit unnerving for machines that are supposedly built to last, all except a computer chip that will be obsolete in 10-20 years, when it's predecessors are going for 40+ years.
Bob Bancroft
Well-known Member
- Location
- Aurora NY
Dealer plugs in whatever diagnostic tools JD supplies, and if it won't "communicate", or whatever it won't do, they are clueless.
Believe it or not, the main thing, as I remember now, was someone stuck fuses in most of the slots, we believe were originally empty. After digging right into wire harnesses, we found splices buried in harnesses, where multiple fuses fed one circuit. The whole back of the cab is covered with a bank of fuses, control modules, circuit breakers, relays, etc. Apparently any one model does NOT typically use ALL the fuse slots.
There was also a starting/loss of prime issue. When we discovered the fuel supply and return hoses spliced together at the engine, we were confused. But research at JD parts showed a connector/orifice in the splice. Purchase and installation of that orifice solved that one. However, it still is a good idea to turn the key on, and let the electric lift pump run a bit, before starting.
We obtained some printed service information. We had a stack of paper a foot deep. And we still didn't have all of it. And what we had didn't make much sense.
Believe it or not, the main thing, as I remember now, was someone stuck fuses in most of the slots, we believe were originally empty. After digging right into wire harnesses, we found splices buried in harnesses, where multiple fuses fed one circuit. The whole back of the cab is covered with a bank of fuses, control modules, circuit breakers, relays, etc. Apparently any one model does NOT typically use ALL the fuse slots.
There was also a starting/loss of prime issue. When we discovered the fuel supply and return hoses spliced together at the engine, we were confused. But research at JD parts showed a connector/orifice in the splice. Purchase and installation of that orifice solved that one. However, it still is a good idea to turn the key on, and let the electric lift pump run a bit, before starting.
We obtained some printed service information. We had a stack of paper a foot deep. And we still didn't have all of it. And what we had didn't make much sense.
farmer boy
Well-known Member
Who told you this. There is only one computer vital to a 9500/9510's operation. That computer is still available. I just looked up the most current information from Deere. The only real electronic on that combine is the electric governor.
farmer boy
Well-known Member
6310 has 3 computers. BIF, BCU and HCU -Basic Informator, Basic Control Unit, and Hitch Control Unit
But they tend to be so reliable you hardly know that they're there. They do cause trouble now and
again, but overall, quite good
But they tend to be so reliable you hardly know that they're there. They do cause trouble now and
again, but overall, quite good
jimg.allentown
Well-known Member
While what you say about the amount of R&D, intellectual property, etc. may be true and correct, there is another side to the equation....
How many of the purchasers actually WANTED all of the electronics on board? Were those electronics necessary to the proper function of that vehicle? And, given the "erratic" nature of a farmer's income (comes in lumps at harvest time), is it right to "turn off" a piece of equipment in the field over a couple of missed payments?
Just my own humble opinion - if I were a farmer working to make a living, I would not voluntarily pay for a lot of (my opinion again) unnecessary electronics. Mother Deere or whomever else did that of their own volition. Then want to charge me a fortune for it, and then retain rights of ownership to it?? Doesn't seem right to me. We really do need to return to a simpler time. I do understand the need for cleaner engines, but at the same time, it is just as important to be reasonable about it.
Keep in mind that I am/was a factory trained Ford technician for most of my adult life. I have been to manufacturer's schools on much of the electronics. Some are good, some are GREAT, and some are just over the top unwarranted. Again, my own opinion. Some of the newer cars are so electronic that you need to reflash the computer after changing a burned out headlight or taillight bulb. TOO MUCH in my opinion.
How many of the purchasers actually WANTED all of the electronics on board? Were those electronics necessary to the proper function of that vehicle? And, given the "erratic" nature of a farmer's income (comes in lumps at harvest time), is it right to "turn off" a piece of equipment in the field over a couple of missed payments?
Just my own humble opinion - if I were a farmer working to make a living, I would not voluntarily pay for a lot of (my opinion again) unnecessary electronics. Mother Deere or whomever else did that of their own volition. Then want to charge me a fortune for it, and then retain rights of ownership to it?? Doesn't seem right to me. We really do need to return to a simpler time. I do understand the need for cleaner engines, but at the same time, it is just as important to be reasonable about it.
Keep in mind that I am/was a factory trained Ford technician for most of my adult life. I have been to manufacturer's schools on much of the electronics. Some are good, some are GREAT, and some are just over the top unwarranted. Again, my own opinion. Some of the newer cars are so electronic that you need to reflash the computer after changing a burned out headlight or taillight bulb. TOO MUCH in my opinion.
If Haas is requiring an auth. code to unlock a machine after a service call, that must be something new. We had one serviced at work last spring and it didn't require an unlock code. On the other hand, the brand new one we got last winter had to have a code every 3 months until it was fully paid for. After you would put the code in, on the timers screen it would tell you when the next activation date was.
Gee, go buy a new car or a house and miss a few payments. Same thing. Only difference is with that very expensive piece of equipment you get to store it for free until they get around to repoing it. They don't take into account wearer or anything else. Payment is due when it's due.
Rick
Mark - IN.
Well-known Member
Software companies, like Microsoft and Windows or other products like Office are the same. According to them, you "lease" it. I could be wrong, but think there was a case where they used the courts to make examples of...lessees like us all.
Mark
Mark
Stuff like this is the very reason I love older machines, be it an auto, or a piece of equipment. It's also the reason I've got customers that are currently looking for older equipment instead of buying new.
It's also the reason the industry has finally started to understand what us folks actually working in the real world have known for years, not every customer want's all the electronic bells and whistles (((ie-junk))) on their equipment. Take a peek at the link to see an article on one of those new machines.
Poke here
It's also the reason the industry has finally started to understand what us folks actually working in the real world have known for years, not every customer want's all the electronic bells and whistles (((ie-junk))) on their equipment. Take a peek at the link to see an article on one of those new machines.
Poke here
Screw all the safety, etc. arguments presented, it is all about money. Not even the Chinese copying argument holds water.........they have enough money & engineering talent to break any code! If they have to they will just pay Bill! You & I can't afford the political contributions & lobbyist that corporations can, so just live with it! 
Furthermore, why does software need more protection than a gear box, or unique mechanical mechanism?!!
Furthermore, why does software need more protection than a gear box, or unique mechanical mechanism?!!
T in NE
Well-known Member
- Location
- Cambridge, Nebraska
The code for running a second dome on the planter, and using that info to steer the tractor, is 7 gran.
I've only been neat a Haas at one shop so I can't speak first hand, but plenty of guys talk aboutt it in some machinist groups I'm in, and one member had a machine that locked out and needed a code a couple days or so after a repair, which the company hadn't paid for yet so no code.
Donovan from Wisconsin
I've only been neat a Haas at one shop so I can't speak first hand, but plenty of guys talk aboutt it in some machinist groups I'm in, and one member had a machine that locked out and needed a code a couple days or so after a repair, which the company hadn't paid for yet so no code.
Donovan from Wisconsin
Pair-a-dice farm
Well-known Member
I see an opportunity for some technology company in a few years. Making replacement computers that will work in various brands of tractors. There are ways of getting around copyrights and patents by changing a few things. In some cases the aftermarkets may work better than the original.
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