subcompact stability on hills

bbuchan

New User
I am looking for feedback on subcompact tractor lateral stability (center of gravity) on hills. I will be getting a tractor with a loader to do normal material handling around the place but I also want to be able to work on converting some old logging skid trails into hiking trails. Because the trails are fairly narrow, I'm opting for a subcompact. I've been looking at 4WD hydro subcompacts in the 18-24 hp range. I like some of the solidly built machines from the 80s-90s (e.g., JD755, JD855, Kubota B8200) but just eye-balling them they look like they may have a slightly higher center of gravity than some of the newer machines (e.g., JD2210, Kubota bx2200. I would appreciate any feedback on their performance/stability on hills or what you think might be the perfect tractor for that application.
thanks,
Bryant
 
Eyeballing is not the best way. A new tractor's owner;'s manual will have all the details, does and not-does. Angles,etc. As you know, always use seat belt and ROPS.
 
I have a MF GC2300 sub-compact and find it to be
very stable and maneuverable. However, the same
low stance that provides stability also limits
ground clearance which could be an issue for
operating in terrain like you're describing. Make
sure the models you're considering don't have any
vulnerable parts hanging low that would get
damaged by getting snagged on a stump or log.
 
(quoted from post at 07:16:29 03/18/15) I am looking for feedback on subcompact tractor lateral stability (center of gravity) on hills. I will be getting a tractor with a loader to do normal material handling around the place but I also want to be able to work on converting some old logging skid trails into hiking trails. Because the trails are fairly narrow, I'm opting for a subcompact. I've been looking at 4WD hydro subcompacts in the 18-24 hp range. I like some of the solidly built machines from the 80s-90s (e.g., JD755, JD855, Kubota B8200) but just eye-balling them they look like they may have a slightly higher center of gravity than some of the newer machines (e.g., JD2210, Kubota bx2200. I would appreciate any feedback on their performance/stability on hills or what you think might be the perfect tractor for that application.
thanks,
Bryant

I think my first question would be where is this happening and how much tractor experience do you have? What exactly is it you want or think you can do in the earth moving area with a glorified lawn mower? Not being mean or a smart aleck, but you may be wasting your money if you plans are outside what they can really do. The advertising showing some smiling guy moving a yard of dirt are just that- advertising.
 

BBuchan, welcome to YT! And congratulations for choosing as your topic one that generates lots of activity every time it comes up here! You will be advised by some here to never go across a slope with your tractor, almost to the point that you should hire a surveyor to insure that anywhere that you intend to go with it is perfectly level, LOL. The reality is that if you have half a brain you will feel very uncomfotable on a side slope before your tractor is in danger of tipping over. Loader tractors need extra care because they CAN raise your center of gravity, and this is more likely to happen when going down hill. A load in a bucket, when below your COG, will actually lower your COG. As Thomas(AB) pointed out, ballasting, especially wheel weights, will lower your COG. The single largest factor however is wheel track, or spacing. The owner's manual of most tractors being sold now will show you how to adjust your track by reversing the centers and different attaching of the rims to the centers, including swapping sides, which could result in the need to remount the tires, but would be worth the time. Any of these small tractors with plenty of ballasting and a wide track, will be very safe on slopes.
 
Sub-compacts are a lot more than glorified lawn
mowers. If you look at the weight of these
machines you'll find it to be pretty much the
same as equal-power compacts which makes sense
since many of the components are the same. For
example, my GC2300 weighs nearly 1400 lbs which
is only about a hundred pounds less than a MF
1225 (a regular-sized, 23hp compact). The
smaller tires will of course limit the traction
compared to a compact but you'd be surprised at
what these tractors can do.
 
All depends on how steep the hills are. One mans hill is another mans mountain. What is dangerous is when a person doesn't know the difference. You need to work side by side (in person) with someone that does know the difference.
 
Today's tractors seem to be more top heavy to me than older units. Add a loader and really gets tippy when you start lifting something up. Your best safety device is your gut and your brain.
I have ran a small Kubota on a decent slope but only because I had a small backhoe on it and could swing it to the uphill side for counterweight.
Dad has a Ventrac for mowing and those really have a low center of gravity. Google them and check out their website.
I think many manufactures are giving slope percentages for their equipment now and many are even equipping them with tiltmeters.
 
bbuchan,
My neighbor bought a BX2300 with add on loader
backhoe. He wanted me to test it out. All I have
to say is use one before you buy one. Then go to
your local DIY and rent a Terramite and an
Allmand.

Look at the construction of each. The front axle
and front tires determines how how much the
loader can lift. Look at the fact sheet on front
bucket lifting and hoe stats.

I know this won't be a popular thing to say, but
the BX23 is a lawn mower with a loader/hoe bolted
on.

The terramite and Allmand is built from the
ground up as a subcompact. No bolted on
loader/hoe. Both are solid built machines. The
Allmand is the strongest and the Terramite is a
close second. The BX2300 is a slow weak toy.

Both the Allmand and BX 2300 you have to get off
the seat and go to another seat to use the hoe.
The BX you have to walk around to the back of
tractor and climb on the hoe's seat. The
Terramite you pull a lever on the seat and spin
around.

The Allmand and Terramite can be either gas or
diesel. BX2300 diesel only.

If you want a lawn mower get a BX. If you want to
get something that is serious about moving dirt
get a Allmand or Terramite.

As for stability, all have a narrow wheelbase and
on hills can be scarey. The Allmand or Terramite
have a serious roll cage and a seat belt. The BX
has a roll bar, what a joke. When I'm up a steep
hills, I drop the back bucket and use it to
prevent from rolling all the way over when front
wheels come up. Mine is hydrostatic. I hit
reverse to put the front wheels back on the
ground.

All I have to say is use one before you buy one.
If you want to save a little check out your
craigslist. There are a few used Allmand or
Terramites for $10-12K.

I remember when Shop smiths came out. One tool to
do everything. The BX's try to use the same
selling point. The BX can do many things. As for
me I don't want to spend time taking things on
and off before I use the tractor. I want to just
get on and go. So if you want a lawn mower, buy a
mower. Want a real subcompact get an Allmand or
Terramite. I bought my Terramite 7 years ago and
have put 1200 hours on it doing yard work. Best
thing I ever bought.
 
Bryant, I can offer my experience with a JD 4100 subcompact tractor that my parents purchased in 2000. We had a IH H sized tractor growing up and I presently have a Ferguson TO-20 and MF135. The 4100 has fluid in all the tires and the wheels are turned out as wide as they will go. Even at that it is not as stable as even the IH H on a slope because of the narrow wheelbase. These tractors have a roll bar and seat belt. Be sure and use them. I have had the uphill wheels start to lift off the ground on a slope that would not have been a problem for the other tractors mentioned. As a reminder, I attended an auction last year for a family that lost their father who turned over a similar sized Kubota as the JD 4100 while mowing on not that steep a slope and was killed. They had removed the roll bar so he could mow under tree limbs easier. They are great little tractors but you have to be very careful on slopes.
 
I had a New Holland TC 24DA and traded it in for a TC 34DA, much wider rear wheel spacing with a front end loader and I think much safer. The wide spacing on the rear wheels adds much to the stability. The rear wheel spacing on my old 2600 Ford is just right for my log roads. These new subcompact Kubotas with loaders and back hoes aren't always the safest thing on slopes, especially swinging the hoe around.
 
As others have said this is always a hot topic on here. Realize that with the Kubota there are actually two different version of the subcompact tlb. The ones that end in 00 like a BX2200 is a subcompact tractor with a loader and a 3 point attached backhoe. Then when you go to the BX 23 /BX 25 you have a more dedicated unit with subframe. Not going to get into the terramite argument except to say Kubota outsells the terramite by about 4 to 1. Terramites cannot drop the hoe and be used a 3 point tractor. As to the answer to your question we are in a very hilly section of Tennessee and I constantly have customers buy a new BX and come back in the store latter and make the comment"YOU THAT LITTLE THING WILL DO MORE THAN I EVER EXPECTED IT TO DO. or comment like I DON,T KNOW HOW I EVER GOT ALONG WITH OUT IT. We have some in extreme commercial use like digging service lines for the natural gas company , road to house and they are holding up well. As with any piece of equipment just have to use common sense.
 
I've got a 2005 JD 4010 (18.5 HP hydro), and its sure a lot more than a "glorified lawn mower". I use it regularly to fill my manure spreader, spread gravel with the loader bucket, and bush-hog with a 4 foot unit. It will easily fill the bucket with gravel from a pile, and will dig if you don't get too greedy on how big a slice you're taking.

As to slope work, I can't say. We don't have any.
 
My reason for asking is that I do have experience with bigger tractors 35+ hp (from my landscaping days) and know that tractors vary tremendously in lateral stability. This is one of the reasons I'm interested in the older, heavier tractors...and why I plan to fill my tires. However, bigger tractors won't allow me to get the correct angle of attack when trying to scoop sand that has slid out of the hill onto the skid roads which are very narrow. The grades of these skid roads are not too bad and most are relatively level but the slopes they traverse can be steep so I want a small, maneuverable tractor to help me clear sand slides and rocks.
Bryant
 
Weight - filled tires, etc.

Wide stance - widening out the rear width.

Stuff between the ears - most important part of all this, just be
smart, work slow, think.

Paul
 
My Mahindra Maxx 25 is 50.7 inches tire edge to edge. One thing to be aware of is ground clearance. I only have 6 inches.
I always thought that sub compacts were glorified lawn mowers also, even after owning mine for a while.
I then started doing some serious bucket work with it. Underneath that riding mower exterior is a serious freakin machine. I am impressed. The folks calling them lawn mowers have never put one to task.
 
In my experience, 'Poke it with a stick!' is usually the beginning to a good story. Looks like I've done that and roused the hornets... so pardon me for hitting a nerve but I'm looking forward to the feedback. Thank you all in advance for your advice and welcome; I already feel at home.
Bryant
 
My neighbor has a 4 year old (?) BX2350 4x4 with a
loader. Great little tractor that will do a lot of
work. Glorified lawn mower, hardly. That said,
it is tipsy with weight in the bucket. If all you
want is a small loader back hoe and have no use
for a 3 point, and can get away from their piece
of crap gas engine, Terramite is ok.
 
It sounds like you need a small excavator, or dozer for that kind of work. In my experience with a 33 hp compact tractor, they are a little higher center of gravity given they are a bit narrow. I don't like these for use on slopes, in some conditions, winter, slippery soils, if working perpendicular to the slope, it would lose traction, so typically, you could wind up sliding a bit or just being stuck often, even with 4 wheel drive. This one has been pinned against pasture fences and or against one of our barns, slight inclines to one side and slippery conditions. With ice and snow or slick underfoot conditions, with a small incline to one side of the tractor, this will always be a problem. Get pinned against a tree in the forest on an old logging trail may not be much fun at all. Tire chains may help, and larger tractors may not perform any better. Seems to me compact and smaller may not have the mass or the weight of older utility tractors, and I've spent a good part of a day on one, then came home and got on my old ford 850, heavily ballasted, just by the feel of it, 2 completely different animals here.

Obviously you would have to demonstrate one in your conditions, or rent something first just to see how it performs to really know if it will work as you need. If you can get to and onto the trails and set the tractor where you need to work, that is one thing, then you'll need to grade or widen as you go, lot of on/off the 3 pt hoe, maybe a 2nd person in the seat just for moving as you work ? On the flat, you may be able to move the tractor with the hoe as you work, but not on any slope.

You may have a need more for other areas around your place, but it really sounds like a job for an excavator or small dozer, with an experienced operator.

I believe George-TH,In has posted some photos of his terramite, lifting logs and or doing work you would not expect of a small machine, if I recall thinking back. Definitely worth looking into as that machine would seem to be low center of gravity, enough power for the loader and backhoe to perform well for a machine that size.

You would also be surprised at the power a modern small excavator has. In September of 2011, I had one left for me to use on our farm, as thanks in helping with the power company that was upgrading the transmission lines, towers passing through our place. Mind you I spent a solid 5 years operating heavy equipment, those skills came in handy, but this machine was just impressive all the way around, Case EX 70 or something, its in the photos. I did all kinds of work around the place, was able to get into areas like the bank off the side of one of our roads, got in to clear some brush, small trees, pulled myself back up the bank using the hoe and it was a bit slick with mud in there. I picked up a 3' diameter 16' or 20' oak log with it, set it up on other logs to get it off the ground. Mind you, this was the limit as it got light on the back end, but it had the power, simply amazing for something its size. Removed all the boulders from the pastures and surrounding areas, and talk about digging a hole or trench....one can be very productive with these. There are much smaller models, I've used them down to a small CAT that would fit through a 36" doorway, those are tippy, real tippy, but something like in the photos, just perfect. I took some decent size trees down with it, stacked same, just incredible for its size, what it can do. Fuel efficient, even had A/C ! What was even better, I was able to get this thing into the barn for a waterline repair, zero swing, means no counter weight projecting out the back, talk about working in tight conditions, it was as good as it gets for its size, I was sold on the thing after weekend running it.
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Test them for yourself. Tell the dealer what you
will use it for and have him bring one out for you
to try. I have a 33 hp and it has ag type tires on
it. Would I put it sideways on a hill probably not
as my nerve days are past. My son has and it seems
to be stable enough. I would go for the widest
tires you can get and most companies make 3
different body sizes small medium and large.Get
the tires loaded. I have been looking at new ones
and most are tier 4 and they scare the crap out of
me. Something about everything being electrical
 

Huh, struck a nerve with the "glorified lawn mower" remark, eh? Whatever. The point is you won't have a skid steer or industrial loader tractor with any sub-compact, much less a bulldozer or excavator. I have seen a LOT of people get one and think they have a tank...and then discover they don't
 
It all depends on the height you have the bucket at while moving. I always keep the bucket and blade a few inches off the ground when moving on ANY incline and on NON SLOW.... speed turns.
 
(quoted from post at 12:29:33 03/18/15) Sub-compacts are a lot more than glorified lawn
mowers. If you look at the weight of these
machines you'll find it to be pretty much the
same as equal-power compacts... The
smaller tires will of course limit the traction
compared to a compact but you'd be surprised at
what these tractors can do.

Agree, unless you've owned and used one, calling it a lawn mower is way off base. They are great for their capacity, like anything, you should get the right tool for the job you are doing. I have a Mahindra eMax 22 and on my small farm it does anything I need it to do, including going in the barn into the animal pens. My N Fords just won't do that.
 
I have a friend who picked up a Kabota sub compact tractor. It is one of the smallest ones made at 16HP and has a loader. One of the first things he did was drove in on a hill side with the loader up in the air and laid it over on it sides. He had a bucket load of rocks and had the loader up in the air. So yep he did a no no but still they are narrow and all so yep thy will flip just like any thing else
 
those smaller units are tippsy with a bucket.

Make sure you have a ROPS and leave it on.

Also, you may want to move the tires out as wide as possible.
 
Whatever toy you get, make sure the roll bar is on, you use your seat belt, and make sure that you increase your life insurance policy so the wife and kids are taken care of.....
 
(quoted from post at 09:07:59 03/18/15) Whatever toy you get, make sure the roll bar is on, you use your seat belt, and make sure that you increase your life insurance policy so the wife and kids are taken care of.....

I spent a month in the hospital after a roll-over in 1979 so I'm a big believer in ROPS and belts... and the life insurance is up-to-date. and I know how to wench things back up hills...but you're right, that won't help if you're between the tree and the tractor when it stops moving. I do like the weight and the cage on the Terramites.
Bryant
 
We have a Kubota 3130 and my brother has one around 25hp, as well as a couple of older larger machines. The Kubotas are great little tractors, but the hydraulics are quite a bit more powerful in relation to the size of the machine, so it's a little easier to get yourself in trouble than with a larger tractor.
The important thing is to be familiar with your piece of equipment, and don't get beyond it's capabilities.
Pete
 
The cage on my Terramite has kept me out of the
ER at least 3 times. If I had just a roll bar, I
would have gotten killed. The Allmand has a
similar cage too.

A guy working for the parks dept put his tractor
in the lake. The roll bar and seat belt didn't
save him. The bar went down in the mud, he was
trapped under tractor and drown.

Deeres and Botas have just a bar. Some which you
can adjust down. What a joke. However, if you
have no mechanical skills, the terramite and
Allmand may not be for you. There may be
Terramite and Allmand dealers, but none locally.
I get my parts the factory. However I think both
Terramite and Allmand are built in USA. Not sure
where all the parts come from. Mine is easy to
work on, no issue getting parts or hyd shop
rebuilding hyd cylinders. Hoses can be made in
town. So far no issues with hyd pump or torque
motor.

I do have a Deere and Bota dealer in town.
However both are diesels and I'm not a fan of
stinky diesels. I like the simple gas models
which I can fix. And only Terramites and Allmands
come in either gas or diesel models. I think the
4x4 terramites are diesels, T7. Mine is a T5C.
You have an option of Honda or Kohler engines.

So if you have no mechanical skills and no local
hydraulic shop to repair hyd cylinders, you
better have a truck and trailer to take your
machine to the dealer.

A friend bought a 40 hp Bota for mowing. It was
about 10 years old, 500 hrs. It need serviced. So
he takes tractor to town. Gets a call to come
pick up tractor. Dealer left tractor sitting
outside with keys in it. Yep, someone took the
tractor. Dealer's insurance only paid friend
about half the cost of a new tractor,
depreciation. Friend was hot. Went to another
town, different dealer and bought a new Bota.

Other things to think about, is how high do you
need loader to lift. I really think you need to
test drive whatever you get. My local DIY rental
places only have Terramites and Allmands, it that
means anything. Not sure if the Deere and Bota
place rents theirs.
 
In all of the years I sold equipment I only had one fellow get killed on a piece I sold. I sold a new JD 955 and loader to a fellow. He picked it up on Friday. Saturday he was cleaning trails in his woods. HE had ROPS and had his seat belt on. He rolled the tractor right by a tree on the down hill side. The roll bar went behind the tree. The tree crushed him. The tractor had 1.7 hours on it. We went and picked it up.

I would never use a compact tractor with a loader on any type of slope. They are just too narrow.
 
bb,
If you have hills and a death wish then a sub compact with a loader is what you need.

I have a 2014 JD 1023E with 60" mower deck and loader. I learned in the 1st hour that is no machine for running a hillside. The loader is really nice, but it is too heavy up front and to the sides for the weight of the tractor.

That tractor is 48" wide (maybe narrower). Even with added ballast on the rear, it takes very little effort to make that thing get tipsy.

No way will I run alongside any kind of hill, even with the loader all the way down. That tractor is too narrow for it's height.

Get something lower and with wide set wheels...and make sure it is heavier.

LA in WI
 

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